Tzitziot on Belt Loops

[alon]

Since we have someone from South Africa and someone from New York City here, I was wondering: how common is the practice of wearing tzitziot on belt loops where you are?  Of course, everyone can answer.

Halacha in my synagogue is tzitziot on belt loops is acceptable, though of course a tallit katan is preferable. Many however opt for belt loops as their only method other than on the tallit gadol. I prefer the tallit katan, however tzitziot often must be tucked in unless you follow the Orthodox tradition of wearing it outside the shirt and wearing a vest over it. I've never done that, but I have worn them on belt loops, especially when working or if I wanted them to show and had to tuck my shirt. But at the men's retreat with the parent synagogue here I saw a couple of ways to wear a tallit katan and still show the tzitzit. Their halacha is tzitziot must be worn on a four cornered garment.  One method was a long enough tallit katan that it folded up from the tuck and tzitzit could then be easily pulled out. Another was to make long enough loops on the tzitzit where it would attach to the tallit katan so it could be pulled out without bunching up the shirt. I think I'll try the second method.

Has anyone else seen any innovative methods of wearing tzitziot showing with a tucked shirt and tallit katan?

And of course the original question- is it common to wear tzitzit on belt loops where you are?

Dan C

[alon]

  Dan C said: "Has anyone else seen any innovative methods of wearing tzitziot showing with a tucked shirt and tallit katan?"

OK, since I seem to be talking to myself here  :

"Why yes, Dan, I have. In fact, I just made some sliding leather loops from scrap leather strap material for makin' tefillin. They go over the belt, and the ends are tied in place by the loop on the tzitzit. Then they can be slid to position or reposition them. That way they can be placed out of the way when reaching into pockets or placing things like cell phone holders on your belt. And they look more purposeful than just being tied to a belt loop. Oh, and if I hadn't rounded the ends they'd each have four corners, so ... if you re-e-e-a-a-ly stretch it ...   (Yeah, I know; but ...). So for those times I do wear them on belt-loops, these should work better."

Why, thank you Dan. That is a really good idea. But do you think they'd wear those in South Africa or New York?

"I don't know about South Africa, but heck fire, there's no telling what they'll do in NYC!"

I think yer right about that! Thanks for the conversation.

Dan (and Dan  ) C

( )

[Loxody]

Tzitziot on the belt loops are not in accordance with Jewish halacha and should be avoided. Not only is this a bad witness to the Jewish people, it is usurping the right and authority of the Jewish people to determine halacha.

Rav Shaul says this in Romans 3:1-2:

Then what is the advantage of being Jewish? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Much in every way.  First of all, they were entrusted with the sayings of G-d.  (TLV)

And Yeshua uphold the authority of the P'rushim (Pharisees), who sit in the seat of Moses.

Then Yeshua spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, "The  scholars and Pharisees on the seat of Moses.  So whatever they tell you, do and observe.  But don't do what they do; for what they say, they do not do.
Matthew 23:1-3 (TLV)

Yeshua commanded the people and his talmidim to do and observe what the Pharisees determine as halacha, because Yeshua himself said they sit in the seat of Moses, the authority passed down generation after generation from Moses to Joshua to the seventy elders, the Men of the Great Assembly, down to the Pharisees.

I never wear tzitzit on my belt loops - it's against Jewish halacha and against Yeshua himself and is a bad witness to the Jewish people.

[alon]

Sept 30, 2016 7:25:22 GMT -8 Loxody said:

Tzitziot on the belt loops are not in accordance with Jewish halacha and should be avoided. Not only is this a bad witness to the Jewish people, it is usurping the right and authority of the Jewish people to determine halacha.

Rav Shaul says this in Romans 3:1-2:

Then what is the advantage of being Jewish? Or what is the benefit of circumcision? Much in every way.  First of all, they were entrusted with the sayings of G-d.  (TLV)

And Yeshua uphold the authority of the P'rushim (Pharisees), who sit in the seat of Moses.

Then Yeshua spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, saying, "The  scholars and Pharisees on the seat of Moses.  So whatever they tell you, do and observe.  But don't do what they do; for what they say, they do not do.
Matthew 23:1-3 (TLV)

Yeshua commanded the people and his talmidim to do and observe what the Pharisees determine as halacha, because Yeshua himself said they sit in the seat of Moses, the authority passed down generation after generation from Moses to Joshua to the seventy elders, the Men of the Great Assembly, down to the Pharisees.

I never wear tzitzit on my belt loops - it's against Jewish halacha and against Yeshua himself and is a bad witness to the Jewish people.

Benayahu, I see what you are saying, and I agree in part. Not placing them on belt loops is Halacha for the parent synagogue here on the forum. I prefer the Tallit Katan myself. But there are times when the belt is more practical. Halacha at my synagogue is wearing them on belt loops is acceptable. As for the Jews making Halacha, each sect makes their own, and they do not always agree. For example, I ordered a T-shirt tallit katan from Israel. It is split up the sides so that it can be folded out like a four cornered garment. But some sects don't recognize them, saying the tallit should not be worn next to the skin.

Our Beit Din at Synagogue Beit Aveinu and the parent organization Light Ministries makes our Halacha, as does Synagogue Chavurat HaMashiach and their umbrella organization the UMJA make their own. This is no different than what Judaism does, but the rulings of both are far different than many of the Jewish sects. For example, we can drive on Shabbat- otherwise no one would ever make it to synagogue. Many Jewish sects do not allow this.

As to who sits in Moses Seat- any rabbi who is teaching sits there! So we do listen to these men when they teach; and we do what they say. But a lot depends on who is teaching. There are some whose teaching I won't sit under. Others I'd sit and learn, but use a truckload of discernment on. I am fortunate to have found two rabbis who, while they don't always agree on the details they DO seem to be in lock-step on the basics. Both are studious and Godly men. One is Rabbi Reuel here on the forum, the other is Rabbi Stanley where I attend synagogue. Both sit in Moses seat, and when they speak, I listen; and DO!

Dan C

[Loxody]

Alon - please list out for me the different sects of Judaism that have different halacha on how the tzitziot are to be worn - because all Jews wear the tzitziot the same way except for the kararites.  The difference is how they are tied, not how they are worn.  All Jewish sects (except for the kararites maybe) agree that tzitziot are not to be worn on the belt loops.  Belt loop tzitziot are a Hebrew Roots invention to usurp Jewish halacha or merely because it's more convenient.
The Ashkenazic Jews tie the tzitziot one way, the Sefardics, Chabad Jews, Yemenites all tie them different ways.  But that's how they tie them.  That is a big difference.

[alon]

Oct 1, 2016 15:56:27 GMT -8 Loxody said:

Alon - please list out for me the different sects of Judaism that have different halacha on how the tzitziot are to be worn - because all Jews wear the tzitziot the same way except for the kararites.  The difference is how they are tied, not how they are worn.  All Jewish sects (except for the kararites maybe) agree that tzitziot are not to be worn on the belt loops.  Belt loop tzitziot are a Hebrew Roots invention to usurp Jewish halacha or merely because it's more convenient.
The Ashkenazic Jews tie the tzitziot one way, the Sefardics, Chabad Jews, Yemenites all tie them different ways.  But that's how they tie them.  That is a big difference.

I don't have a comprehensive list or even a great knowledge of which sect does what halachically. I do from time to time browse Jewish websites, and so have come across this issue. Let's start with one many find useful:

www.hebrew4christians.com/Blessings/Daily_Blessings/Tallit_Katan/tallit_katan.html

Go to the third paragraph, lines 5 and 6 and you’ll see where it says of the tallit katan “Traditional Jews wear it like a T-shirt under their clothing (but not directly next to their skin).”

The Siach Yitchok in Siman Ches says it is assur because it is an embarrassment to the Mitzvah that its being used as a sweat absorber.

At Matzav.com we find this argument: The Bais HaLevi in Chelek Alef, siman alef, ois heh and the Avnei Nezer Yoreh Deah, siman shin tzaddik say that the ikkar reason one puts on the “begged” of tzitzis is to have an extra covering on the body. The Kehillas Yaakov in Yevamos, siman zayin concurs and says the mitzvah of making tzitzis only applies to the strings of the tzitzis, but putting on the begged itself is not the mitzvah.

The Shailos U’Tshuvos Eretz Tzvi, chelek alef, siman alef disagrees and says that in our day and age the begged is also a part of the mitzvah as we put on this begged only for the mitzvah of tzitzis.

Interestingly we find on one Jewish question and answer site “For Kabalistic reasons (See the Pri Etz Chaim, Shaar Tzitzit, quoted here), the Ari Z"l would wear his Tallit Katan under all his garments. This seems to indicate that he wore them directly on his skin. The Lubavitcher Rebbe says that R' Chaim Vital was describing a private practice of the Arizal, but (assuming it is literal) it would appear that the Arizal did not have an issue with wearing the Tallit Katan directly on his skin.” Yet the Orthodox typically wear their Tallis over their shirt, with a vest over that.

I’ve seen these before, so they were relatively easy for me to find. However you can do your own search and I’m sure you’ll get similar results.

As you point out, Kararites have their own halacha. But so does every other sect. They may be similar in many ways, but it is their own Beit Din who made the decision and not any universal regulation.

To go back to your original post in this thread, I agree with you it is nowhere in Judaism I know of that it is OK to wear tzitziot on belt loops. I also agree it is a potentially very bad witness to take what the Jews think to be their custom and a commandment meant only for them, and to wear them in a way no other sect of Judaism does. I was thinking about this when I asked the question here. Myself, when I do wear them on my beltloops  I usually wear my shirt untucked so it is not readily discernable. I was looking at various ways to wear tzitzit so that they showed, as this is a witness to Christians and the unsaved who might be curious about them. There is exactly one Jewish family in my town, but there are a few about 20 miles north. And around here 20 miles makes us neighbors.

So I am wrestling with the idea. And while I don't agree that any other Jewish sect has authority over my own Beit Din, I do agree somewhat with your argument that it isn't really a good thing. Since going to the Men's Retreat with the parent synagogue here I've been reconsidering how I wear tzitzit. So let me ask you this: what do you think of making the loop where the tzitzit attaches to the tallit katan long enough that the tzitzit can easily be worn outside the pants? I've worn them tied regularly and untucked, but the shirt is bunched up so that it is a bit unsightly. I've seen Jews wear them like this also, with the same result. But I know of no sect or person other than at Syn Chavurat HaMashiach who wears them like this.

I can also give you some idea of why our Beit Din allows them on belt-loops. I live in an area where most work is in agricultural and related fields. There is also some heavy industry. A tzitzit caught in many pieces of equipment can be dangerous. Worn on a belt-loop, the loop will break before any other harm is done. However if a tzitzit were caught and then pulled in the tallis, the wearer could be in real trouble really quickly. Like driving, considerations of time and place go into halacha. It is a long way to find another Messianic believer, let alone a synagogue, so we are allowed to drive on Shabbath, as long as not for work or pleasure. Same with lighting a fire. If you lived in Kodiak and the fire went out, the higher mitzvoth would be to light a fire on Shabbath rather than watch your family freeze. But those do not have the potential to be a bad witness like tieing tzitzioth on belt-loops does.

Do you have any ideas on safely wearing tzitzioth outside of clothing that is practical yet not offensive?

Dan C
 

[Loxody]

First of all, I'd like to point out Hebrew For Christians is not a "Jewish" website.

Secondly, whether the talit katan is worn on the outside or next to the skin under the shirt, the tzitziot are still worn on a talit katan.

Jewish people who see belt loop tzitziot think the person is making a mockery of the Jewish people, even though the person isn't nesessarily trying to come across that way.  It looks bad on Messianics, especially if we're trying to be a witness to them.

[alon]

Benayahu said: First of all, I'd like to point out Hebrew For Christians is not a "Jewish" website.

They are Messianic, though very knowledgeable. You are using the traditional Jewish view that anyone who accepts Yeshua is not Jewish- even those born so. We here reject that view, as it is our contention that a Jew who accepts Yeshua does not give up their Jewishness in any way. Furthermore, any Gentile who accepts Yeshua is grafted in, adopted as a Jew. Who Elohim says is a Jew IS a Jew; even those Christians who are saved (whether they realize it or not).

Romans 11:17 (TLV) But if some of the branches were broken off and you—being a wild olive—were grafted in among them and became a partaker of the root of the olive tree with its richness,

Benayahu said: Secondly, whether the talit katan is worn on the outside or next to the skin under the shirt, the tzitziot are still worn on a talit katan.

You asked about different Halacha within Judaism when I said they didn't all agree. This was just evidence that all Jews do not in fact agree on the wearing of tzitzioth. I've already agreed nowhere in Judaism are they worn on belt loops, so let's move past that point. How do you suggest we wear tzitzioth to show when wearing a tallit katan? Anything besides just pulling them out and allowing the shirt to bunch up at the waist?

Benayahu said: Jewish people who see belt loop tzitziot think the person is making a mockery of the Jewish people, even though the person isn't nesessarily trying to come across that way. It looks bad on Messianics, especially if we're trying to be a witness to them.

I've agreed on that as well. However we are still learning here, which is why we discuss these things. Other than just that we put on a tallit katan, do you have any suggestions on allowing tzitzioth to show? Any of the methods I've posited here (besides belt loops) raise any red flags to you?

Again, while my synagogue allows them on belt loops, halacha of the parent synagogue of this forum is to only wear them on a tallit gadol or tallit katan. And the T-shirt tallit katan is acceptable as long as it is slit high enough up the side so it can be laid out as a four cornered garment. So we can discuss tzitzit on belt loops, but we must teach wearing them on tallitoth as being appropriate. So you are right, but now let's move on to details.

Dan C

Edit: we can also use these discussions to teach how Halacha is made and how the system works, both within Judaism and Messianic Judaism. There is no one, universal Halacha in either.

[Loxody]

I only follow the Jewish halacha on this issue, which follows these requirements

• It must have four corners
• It must be a garment for the full upper body (and not just the head)
• Must have two corners on the front, two on the back
• If the garment is attached at the sides, the attachment must be small - the majority of the front and back of the garment must be detached
• Must be of woven material and white
• Must have eight strings on each tassel (symbolizing the eight organs of the human body one can sin with)
• Methods of tying must have a significant meaning
• Be made of the halachically accepted materials
• If blue techelet strand is used, must be dyed with the generally accepted pitel techelet dye

(source: Chabad.org)

[alon]

Oct 4, 2016 11:23:39 GMT -8 Loxody said:

I only follow the Jewish halacha on this issue, which follows these requirements

• It must have four corners
• It must be a garment for the full upper body (and not just the head)
• Must have two corners on the front, two on the back
• If the garment is attached at the sides, the attachment must be small - the majority of the front and back of the garment must be detached
• Must be of woven material and white
• Must have eight strings on each tassel (symbolizing the eight organs of the human body one can sin with)
• Methods of tying must have a significant meaning
• Be made of the halachically accepted materials
• If blue techelet strand is used, must be dyed with the generally accepted pitel techelet dye

(source: Chabad.org)

Since Chabad is Orthodox and so is heavily into Jewish mysticism, most Meshiachim do not follow their teachings. There is a problem with the techelet issue. No one really knows what this is (or was). Howeer it is highly unlikely it was from the Murex snail. There is a lot of argument even amongst Jews about this, however most of the Rabbis have not accepted it, hence the white tzitzioth the vast majority still wear. To me, just the scarcity of this tamei animal and the extremely tedious amount of work required to get a very small amount of dye from each is sufficient evidence this snail was not the source. Think about how much dye was required for all the curtains and hangings in the Mishkan, plus the priests headdress; added to that all the tzitzioth of every male in the nation. And they were in the desert at the time this all was done. Even if they'd gathered a LOT of the things while camped by some large body of water, the dye must be harvested soon after the animal is taken or it starts to degrade. So I just use blue yarn of the same size and type as the white (either cotton or wool in all mine), and this is about as close to keeping the commandment as I can get. I think that is all Hashem requires of us is to get it the best we can and faithfully keep that.

Another problem is that from drawings and mosaics which have survived there are pictures of men wearing tzitzioth which show clearly that the tallit evolved or changed according to time and the needs of the wearer. Murals of Egyptian slaves wearing a small tallis wrapped around the waist are far different from the contemporary Tallit Katan which was used originally so it could be worn under other garments and not be seen due to Christian persecution.

Deuteronomy 22:12  (ESV) “You shall make yourself tassels on the four corners of the garment with which you cover yourself.

So really if I wear a pancho I should attatch tzitzith on each of the four corners. That is the litteral commandment.

I have several tallitoth katan I order from different hebraica stores. And while they are essentially as described by Chabad, there are differences. The T-shirt tallit is one. Some are mesh for summer. some cotton. I can't wear wool any more, so none of those, but I see them when I shop. And I don't have any of the long ones made for outerwear by Orthodox men, but I've seen those worn as well. So even today there is some variation even amongst mainstream Judaism. LOL, if they agreed on everything, they wouldn't be Jews!

Dan C