Tongues

[alon]

It's funny how the Ruach works. The AoG pastor has been on a real tear about this lately. Then Rav S did a teaching on it the last two weeks! And after talking with him about the tongues issue, it occurs to me just how limited their doctrine is. Even Rav S treated the issue of "baptism of the Ruach" like tongues was the only way this was expressed. He didn't mean it that way, but since tongues is the way modern Christianity teaches it in order to address the issue he did it in their terms. But when I write my haftarot, and sometimes I am writing and an idea just flows and I KNOW I'm not THAT smart; could that not be a kind of "baptism of the Ruach?" When you pray or read the Word, do you not sometimes just feel a calm, a peace that is not normal and which you did not seek? There are many ways in which the Ruach may come upon us. But to self induce a trance or whip yourself into a frenzy to experience these things is not of the Ruach. It is how many pagans worship. And I mean real, live, self proclaimed pagans.

There has been a resurgence of paganism in the world today which, interestingly enough has coincided with the tongues movement in Christian churches. Both in the timing of this rebirth of paganism and the birth of the tongues movement, as well as the intensity and popularity of both movements. So again I would ask, what spirit are Christians and Messianics opening themselves up to when they do this? And yes, some are calm when they speak in tongues. I've seen this. But in every case they look well practiced, going through the same short routine before speaking. It is a kind of self hypnosis taught by some therapists, but it is NOT God coming suddenly upon them. In all my experience with people speaking in tongues, I have never witnessed its' natural expression. I've seen people fake it, and everyone there knew they were faking the experience. And I've seen these people taken aside by deacons as well as being left to "translate" for themselves. Unfortunately I've also seen someone fake a "translation" in order to push an agenda (which happens when the speaker had whipped themselves into a tongues frenzy as well).

I read somewhere that Jews who keep all the mitzvoth and doing all those things Christians see as "meaningless rituals" will, Judaism expects, grow closer to Hashem. I have found this to be true, even with the few "rituals" I keep. That so many who profess to follow Yeshua/Jesus have to do this kind of thing (tongues) in order to be closer to God is a . And worse, many who are truly seeking Elohim and who show the fruits of the Ruach still are sucked into tis movement. These people who truly are seeking communion with Elohim are fooled into thinking this is one way they can do it. Call me skeptical (I'll own that if you do), but I just do not see that copying pagan worship practices is a good thing. Ha'satan copies Hashem, not the other way around.

Dan C

[Questor]

Sept 18, 2016 9:13:54 GMT -8 alon said:

It's funny how the Ruach works...But when I write my haftarot, and sometimes I am writing and an idea just flows and I KNOW I'm not THAT smart; could that not be a kind of "baptism of the Ruach?" When you pray or read the Word, do you not sometimes just feel a calm, a peace that is not normal and which you did not seek? There are many ways in which the Ruach may come upon us.

Yes...the leading of the Ruach, when you write things that you know you have no background in, nor special knowledge...it is a marvelous feeling.


But to self induce a trance or whip yourself into a frenzy to experience these things is not of the Ruach. It is how many pagans worship. And I mean real, live, self proclaimed pagans.

It is a difficult thing, particularly when no emotion is in view, no audience, and no meditating of any kind...merely a decision in the mind to let the words flow, and they do. And because there is no emotion, even when the words sound or pained or joyous, one has to allow for the possibility that these things are also of the Ruach, and not of a source one wishes to avoid.

I think the key in this is what the leading is...is it to ask for help or expression in a time when you are merely being notified that the resource exists...or is it about impressing others, or empowering yourself in any way.

It is a difficult matter to decide on...and one reason I am scant in my usage of the 'talent', if that is what it is. And yet, there are times when I am aware that I should use it more as well...to be less afraid of the gift G-d has given me.  

It is much more noticable when the Ruach comes on one to pray immediately in one's own language for a known cause...like a sudden praying against a storm, or fire, and you feel the urgency behind the demand of the Ruach.  And then it drops away, and you know something has happened.  That has happened perhaps a dozen times to me in the last twenty years...the most memorable was the hurricane before Katrina...and yet no prompting was given to pray against Katrina.  It was as if sufficient warning had been given, or something, and those aware of the Ruach would be ready...and that certainly seemed to be so.  Those hit by Katrina seemed to be those most bereft of all aid, human or of the Spirit.

There has been a resurgence of paganism in the world today which, interestingly enough has coincided with the tongues movement in Christian churches. Both in the timing of this rebirth of paganism and the birth of the tongues movement, as well as the intensity and popularity of both movements. So again I would ask, what spirit are Christians and Messianics opening themselves up to when they do this? And yes, some are calm when they speak in tongues. I've seen this. But in every case they look well practiced, going through the same short routine before speaking. It is a kind of self hypnosis taught by some therapists, but it is NOT God coming suddenly upon them.

It isn't anything sudden for me, nor practiced, nor with any preliminary thought or speech, and shouldn't be overpowering if real. It is an ability, like flicking a switch on or off...not a possession of the Ruach, anymore than when the Ruach gives me words when I am writing and I am stunned at their meaning and depth.

In all my experience with people speaking in tongues, I have never witnessed its' natural expression. I've seen people fake it, and everyone there knew they were faking the experience. And I've seen these people taken aside by deacons as well as being left to "translate" for themselves. Unfortunately I've also seen someone fake a "translation" in order to push an agenda (which happens when the speaker had whipped themselves into a tongues frenzy as well).

If you recall, it was the requirement to suddenly speak in an unknown tongue (that no one had even informed me of prior to that moment) that put such fear into me at my baptism at the age of 15 that the Adversary was able to use it, give me a view of the church that would have horrified them, and got me immediately into the occult...and it was 7 years before I stopped seeking power, and yet I did not ask for the falling of the Ruach haKodesh until 18 years ago.  

I didn't actually pray with anyone for the use of tongues until some28 years after that scary indoctrination into things spiritual, and when it first happened that I attempted it, it was very much like trying to force syllables out of my mouth that would not come...like a gear was rusted shut.

Then it opened and came, and was clean and simple and without emotion or any other meaning, feeling or process. Then, later,  I found that I could sing in tongues, being given music with it, in another language, and that it was so different that I studied what I sounded like.

I know I was protected by my immersion at 15, but I was not invested with any gifts of G-d until 43, and was consequently very wary of all that I was given...I still am.


The sentence patterns exist, and I am able to understand some words in my singing language, because I asked for it...that I might know what I was singing about...and it's always praise of G-d.  Still, one must very cautious in this, as in all gifting of power...it is a odd place to enter into...tongues, and visions and dreams. Much discernment is necessary.

I read somewhere that Jews who keep all the mitzvoth and doing all those things Christians see as "meaningless rituals" will, Judaism expects, grow closer to Hashem. I have found this to be true, even with the few "rituals" I keep. That so many who profess to follow Yeshua/Jesus have to do this kind of thing (tongues) in order to be closer to God is a . And worse, many who are truly seeking Elohim and who show the fruits of the Ruach still are sucked into tis movement. These people who truly are seeking communion with Elohim are fooled into thinking this is one way they can do it. Call me skeptical (I'll own that if you do), but I just do not see that copying pagan worship practices is a good thing. Ha'satan copies Hashem, not the other way around.

Dan C

I have studied what Sha'ul said about the matter, and do not really understand him, only that he was greatly cheered and strengthened by his uses of 'tongues'...whatever use it was and of what type, and consequently he recommended it to others...it is a pity we do not have more information about this, and other teachings.  I feel that we are much hampered by knowing so little...in many areas of interest and need.  

In the more miraculous giftings, one needs to take each step carefully, and then ask if what one has done or received was given by G-d. I admit, I enjoy being used as fingertips for the Ruach...one KNOWS one is not that smart...and never will be.  So the satisfaction at being used by G-d is immense.

Healing others must be like that...if it simply flows through you, and you are not forcing the matter.  Unfortunately, I know no healers, even though I have been much healed...sometimes in big chucks from that broken neck, and sometimes in little ways.


How much I want Mashiach to come, and for us to all be together in these things, without doubt and fear.

[alon]

Questor, we disagree on some things (like this); but I do not doubt your sincerety. And I was thinking of this issue as I went to church at the AoG with my wife this morning. I know people there who I have no doubt they are saved. And they are sincere in their practices as well. That doesn't make them right, and I must stand up for the truth as I think I have been given it. They know my views on tongues there as well, yet we are able to put these things aside. My thought was that posts like this may seem negative, or an attack on certain groups. When we are dealing with things that are wrong (at least in the general consensus here), we must speak negatively about them. However we should also remember that at least those who are sincere and who are showing the fruits of the Ruach are still brothers and sisters. We should always, especially when dealing with Christian beliefs be aware we are attacking false doctrine, not everyone who believes that way.

I have studied what Sha'ul said about the matter, and do not really understand him, only that he was greatly cheered and strengthened by his uses of 'tongues'...whatever use it was and of what type, and consequently he recommended it to others...it is a pity we do not have more information about this, and other teachings. I feel that we are much hampered by knowing so little...in many areas of interest and need. 

That is a good case in point. If we were meant to "glosaliazize" on demand, shouldn't we have been given more as well as more clear instruction on it? Wouldn't someone other than Rav Sha'ul (who was known even then to be difficult to understand) have given us instructions?

2Peter 3:16 (NKJV)  as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

Healing others must be like that...if it simply flows through you, and you are not forcing the matter. Unfortunately, I know no healers, even though I have been much healed...sometimes in big chucks from that broken neck, and sometimes in little ways.

This is another good point. Is there no one righteous enough that we should be seeing real healings taking place? Why is it that incoherent babbling is the only spiritual gift given freely today? My father, a died in the wool hell-fire-and-brimstone Southern Baptist preacher of the old school used to ask those seeking the gift of tongues "Why not ask for the gift of giving?" Why not indeed. If you really want to do some good and see immediate results, ask for the gift of giving. If you really want to see the miraculous working of the Ruach and KNOW it is Elohim working in Your life, give at His leading and in His name until it hurts. TRUST your God to provide for you, because you gave for Him. Now that would truly be a spiritual gift which bears immediate fruit in your life and others. If you are seeking immediate gratification from Hashem, that would be how to undeniably get it. But I have known very few who posses this gift, and to my knowledge they didn't seek it. They were just blessed with it. And I believe them to be gifted, even though they never proclaimed the gift nor even gave to be seen. Those who claim the gift of tongues, if it was an intelligible language to someone else and it had a message for them, then yes, I believe they experienced this gift. If they just have a gift for picking up languages then yes, they have the gift to a somewhat lesser degree. But if they babble incoherently then I remain, skeptically yours,

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

If you just pray for G-d to give you what you need to do what He gives you to do and get through, let that be what it is He gives. We are told signs will accompany those who believe in Yeshua's name. (Mark 16:17) That to me seems like G-d'a way of giving us self-assurance and public validation as believers. The prayer should be for belief and faith Yeshua discussed, not the gifts resulting from it. G-d handles that according to His own wisdom about what is good for us and our future. It seems somehow twisted around in some people's minds, and it's very dangerous to want something from Him for reasons that aren't of Him.

Are we told to pray for the gifts specifically? I will read up on my own because I am unfamiliar on this topic. I do know if you pray for G-d to give you what He knows you need for the strength to handle His plans for you, He will give it to you.

Were we told to pray for specific gifts in scripture? I tell my kids to pray for G-d to fill them with His Spirit and give them what they need to sustain them through whatever their life holds; same prayer I pray for myself on this topic. But whatever He gives you, you better be at a place wise enough to hand it right back to Him, and I don't think it's from Him otherwise. I leave it at that because how do we know what it is we are called to do until He reveals it to us? The best we can do is pray for what we need to accomplish His will and the faith to handle it wisely in a way that glorifyies Him I think. 

[garrett]

Sept 3, 2016 5:19:16 GMT -8 garrett said:

Dan - THANK YOU for writing this. This information is way overdue and it's put together better than I could have done it. Over time I've become convinced that "speaking in tongues" is bogus. I've been in a million scenarios in my past life where this was practiced. I just scratched my head the whole time, for the reasons you mentioned above.

And yes, many in Messianic lite practice it. I've seen this before as well.

Thanks for putting this together - garrett

It's been almost a year since this topic came up and for some reason it came back to my mind (Tongues).

The topic of Tongues comes up with the Acts of the Apostles, the Shlichim. The 2nd chapter of Acts addresses this. Devout JEWS from every nation came to Jerusalem, in obedience, for Shavuot (Pentecost).

verse 4: And they were all filled WITH the Holy Spirit and began to speak WITH other tongues, as the spirit gave them utterance.

verse 5: And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.

verse 6: And when this sound occurred the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

verse 7: Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, "Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?

verse 8: And how is it that we hear each in our own language in which we were born? (I think at least 16 or 17 languages are mentioned).

What occurred was the speaking WITH tongues of other men, not speaking IN tongues. These other tongues were understandable.  Did you notice that this was done when only Jews were present? This was done for them to recognize their Messiah. The Apostles were Jews. Those speaking with other tongues were being heard by other Jews. The Jews seek signs...and here is a sign. It seems to me that this is quite a "one-time thing." This is a transitional period where Jews are shown signs - and the opportunity to recognize their Messiah.

Later, in Corinth, Paul would have to deal with the confusion of the Jews in the Diaspora who are also in fellowship with a large population of Gentile converts who came out of paganism. These Gentiles happen to be creating confusion with the topic of tongues - because this is the first time that confusion and "the clanging of cymbals" is referenced to the act of people speaking in unintelligible tongues and selfishly trying to edify themselves.

Paul's dealings with those in I Corinthians and the issue of tongues to this very day are people's willingness to fall into the trance-like state of cognitive dissonance for the selfish sake of edifying themselves and no one else. It makes them feel good, however a believer's goal is not to feel good. The goal is to repent, ask and accept the salvation given by Yeshua and follow G-ds instructions for mankind. And the life of repentance and following His instructions () is an ongoing lifestyle.

Barring the exception of a miracle where one is able to speak to another (for the first time) in his or her native language, I believe the occurrence of speaking WITH tongues is over and done; and the occurrence of speaking IN tongues is NOT of G-d and is evil.

garrett

[mystic]

Sept 18, 2016 9:13:54 GMT -8 alon said:

These people who truly are seeking communion with Elohim are fooled into thinking this is one way they can do it. Call me skeptical (I'll own that if you do), but I just do not see that copying pagan worship practices is a good thing. Ha'satan copies Hashem, not the other way around.

Dan C

Can it be that since a lot of Christians are followers of Paul, they are taking his advice to speak in tongues? Also because a lot of the TV Preachers glorify it making it seem like you need to speak in tongues in order to get to their level of Spirituality.

[alon]

Oct 3, 2020 4:55:07 GMT -8 mystic said:

Can it be that since a lot of Christians are followers of Paul, they are taking his advice to speak in tongues? Also because a lot of the TV Preachers glorify it making it seem like you need to speak in tongues in order to get to their level of Spirituality.

They are misinterpreting Paul, who used tongues as a common euphemism for languages. But yes, that is what they think they are doing. I am also sure they are following preachers (on TV and otherwise) who promote the practice.

"You need to speak in tongues in order to get to their level of Spirituality." That's a good observation in many cases. There is definitely a sort of "spiritual one-upmanship" going on in many Pentecostal churches. Not all by a long shot, but many. 

Dan C