struggling

[chrisg]

I was brought up Anglican, before becoming a Christian in my early teens. That means there is a lot of history (I am now approaching 60) behind my 'Christianity'. I have come to understand and accept that Christianity is much more Jewish than I was led to believe in the churches I have attended. But I am finding there is so much to learn and unlearn! And there are so many questions!! For instance, I think I might have found a Messianic fellowship to attend, but it only meets once a month at around 7.30 on a Saturday night, when Sabbath is all but over. I have not yet been able to attend, due to other commitments (eg I will be away from home for the next one). I have no idea what it will be like either. But in the absence of a messianic congregation, should I be attending a Jewish synagogue? At least they are worshipping on Sabbath and not Sunday!

Not to mention that my husband and I are not exactly on the same page with this, which isn't really helping. He isn't trying to change my mind, but he is now making it clear he is 'bored' when I speak of anything (not that I talk about it constantly, but even when I mention something I'd like to discuss, he sighs big time).

But the point of this post - what I could really do with is an instruction manual (haha); a kind of 101 to learn what I need to learn. Are there any books or videos (you tube or DVDs) that would help? This really is a huge learning curve and the more I find out, the more there seems to be to know! I am painfully aware of how little I know and how slowly I am learning - mainly for lack of some coherent texts that will teach me what I need to know.

[alon]

Sept 1, 2016 10:23:41 GMT -8 chrisg said:

I was brought up Anglican, before becoming a Christian in my early teens. That means there is a lot of history (I am now approaching 60) behind my 'Christianity'. I have come to understand and accept that Christianity is much more Jewish than I was led to believe in the churches I have attended. But I am finding there is so much to learn and unlearn! And there are so many questions!! For instance, I think I might have found a Messianic fellowship to attend, but it only meets once a month at around 7.30 on a Saturday night, when Sabbath is all but over. I have not yet been able to attend, due to other commitments (eg I will be away from home for the next one). I have no idea what it will be like either. But in the absence of a messianic congregation, should I be attending a Jewish synagogue? At least they are worshipping on Sabbath and not Sunday!

Not to mention that my husband and I are not exactly on the same page with this, which isn't really helping. He isn't trying to change my mind, but he is now making it clear he is 'bored' when I speak of anything (not that I talk about it constantly, but even when I mention something I'd like to discuss, he sighs big time).

But the point of this post - what I could really do with is an instruction manual (haha); a kind of 101 to learn what I need to learn. Are there any books or videos (you tube or DVDs) that would help? This really is a huge learning curve and the more I find out, the more there seems to be to know! I am painfully aware of how little I know and how slowly I am learning - mainly for lack of some coherent texts that will teach me what I need to know.

Chris, your story is a familiar one. I started out doing this on my own, and many here have no place to worship either. If you can find a Jewish synagogue that will allow you to attend, then that is better than going to most churches. However I think you should talk to the Rabbi first and be honest about who and what you are. And while they will not want you to proselytize or tell the congregants about your beliefs, they will be telling you of theirs, including why Yeshua is not hamoshiach. So you'll be at a disadvantage. There is also the possibility of being proselytized yourself, since you can only listen to their side of things.

There are a lot of books, and a lot on the internet. My advice is not to waste your money on the books. I've filled my garbage many times over with books that I thought would be ok, but turned out to be, well, garbage! And the internet is worse. However there is a LOT of good information here in the archives, and if you aren't sure about what you are reading you have the option to reopen the thread and discuss it.

I know how it is to live in a divided home as well. My wife gets irritated and even angry if I say something, even in answer to her questions. But hang in there; it's worth it.

As for the group you are interested in, I can't say without more information. But if they deny the eternal deity of Yeshua then no, you should not even speak with them further. If they are Two House (one law for Jews and another for Gentiles) then again, leave them. If they want to teach you how to say the names of God "correctly" and insist you say them just so or you are not saved, then again leave. Other than that, you'll have to just attend and use discernment as to whether you should go back. You can ask here if you have concerns, and we'll try to steer you right.

I am older than you, and I came into this late as well. And the more I learn the more I learn I have a lot more to learn. But we don't have to know it all- we just have to act like we do ... No, sorry (my weird sense of humor). No, we just have to keep learning and do what we can as far as keeping the mitzvoth. It isn't always possible to keep the feasts as we should, for example. But we can mark them somehow, remembering them the best we can. You may not be able to worship on Shabbath, but you can do your work, including meals preparations, during the week and keep that day aside for the Lord. It is difficult to convince others you will not break Shabbath, but if you remain firm in your convictions they will get the idea. And you can do appropriate readings on the feast days. I pray before meals because that is how my wife wants it, and because it is good to give thanks. But I also give thanks after the meal as is commanded:

Deuteronomy 8:10 (KJV) When thou hast eaten and art full, then thou shalt bless the Lord thy God for the good land which he hath given thee.

After makes sense, as it is easy to be grateful when you are hungry and sit down to eat. But to remember afterwards when your belly is full and then to be truly thankful is a little less easy. Regardless, God said give thanks afterwards not just for the meal, but for all His blessings (which is how I interpret that verse). So that is what I try to do. I sometimes forget, as this is a new "habbit" for me to remember after (another reason I give thanks before- I want to make sure I at least do it). And when we do make mistakes, say 'sorry" and move on. We don't have to flog ourselves every time we forget or make mistakes. Learn from them and move on, trying to do better; and doing what we can.

Dan C

[chrisg]

Thanks, Dan.

I have downloaded a Messianic prayer book. It is mostly the Jewish prayers, translated, but with a 'Christian' flavour - ie it acknowledges Yeshua as the Messiah. It covers the feasts as well as Sabbath.

The congregation does not appear to be 'sacred names', but I am not certain yet as their website has a big glitch (it doesn't load at all). I have spoken to a member/leader by email; I asked if there was anything I needed to know (such as being covered, or wearing skirts only) or anything I needed to bring with me. The reply was that they are 'relaxed' and all I need to bring is my Bible and myself. I guess they don't do the whole women should be covered thing, though I will not be attending without mine in any event. Also, this particular leader I found through a Christian church website. They have the Messianic congregation as an affiliate. So they meet on Sundays like a regular church, but help out with the Messianic congregation on the Saturday evening (in the winter, 7.30pm is well past Sabbath here!) I will attend, but I will be cautious. It is about 35 miles away, so not exactly close.

However, there is a Jewish 'shul' about 12 miles down the road I could contact; failing that, there is another 24 miles in the opposite direction and another about 16 miles away. Meanwhile, I am attending regular church on Sunday mornings as I enjoy the fellowship and they are not antagonistic to my perspective. Also, my husband attends too, so he would not be happy if I stopped.

I have been reading David Stern's translation, The Complete Jewish Bible (he is a believer in Yeshua) and his Brit chadashah commentary, which have been helpful. I also have 'Walk Leviticus' - it seems that is where Jewish children start to learn , so I thought I would do likewise. Then I have some interesting books/commentaries by J K McKee, who was an Evangelical Christian until he began to search things for himself and now he is a Messianic teacher. Finally, I have started listening to a series of recorded sermons/teachings on a site called Beth Yeshua, which seems to be for beginners in Messianic ways. There is also one website that although it is 'sacred names' to an extent (they call Yeshua 'Yeshua'), they do seem to have some good teaching. I listened to a recorded sermon last week on the subject of 'Putting YHWH first', which was very helpful. They live stream their Sabbath services, but due to the time differential, it comes on right at our evening meal time, so I can't really listen to it; so what I do is listen to last weeks sermon the following Saturday morning.

My most recent foray into doing things 'properly' is in regard to kosher. I have not eaten pork or pork products, or shellfish for a few months now, but I am finding there is a lot more to it than just that, even if I don't want to follow all the rabbinical rules and regulations and just want to follow Biblical kosher laws. For instance, I made a mistake last evening and ate a cookie that had marshmallow in it, before realising it probably contained gelatine And my husband eats pork/bacon whenever he gets the chance My daughter on the other hand is trying to be more sensitive and doesn't eat things she thinks I would be unhappy with seeing her eat in front of me (though she was home at the weekend and she ate swordfish when we went out, but then I didn't know it wasn't kosher till afterwards - and there are those who say it might be, due to it having scales at some part of its life, though not at others, which is confusing).

Lastly, I have been preparing food for Friday evening's meal in batches large enough for two meals. My husband doesn't mind this, as we have done it before - eaten the food on one day and the leftovers the next. All it needs is heating through in the microwave, so while I do have to heat it, at least I don't have to spend an age preparing it. In short, I am doing the best I can with the circumstances I have at the moment. When our daughter came home at the weekend, I prepared a traditional Sabbath meal for us all to share, though my husband didn't really want to break the bread, but he did pray a blessing. And I was able to use candles, which my daughter appreciated - she likes a nicely set table and good food

[chrisg]

Actually, just been to look and the website for the congregation is up and running again, so I will go study it a while.

[chrisg]

PS, have you heard of the Club? Any thoughts or criticisms?

Edit: Oops, I meant Class, not Club!

[alon]

Sept 1, 2016 11:26:56 GMT -8 chrisg said:

Thanks, Dan.

I have downloaded a Messianic prayer book. It is mostly the Jewish prayers, translated, but with a 'Christian' flavour - ie it acknowledges Yeshua as the Messiah. It covers the feasts as well as Sabbath.

The congregation does not appear to be 'sacred names', but I am not certain yet as their website has a big glitch (it doesn't load at all). I have spoken to a member/leader by email; I asked if there was anything I needed to know (such as being covered, or wearing skirts only) or anything I needed to bring with me. The reply was that they are 'relaxed' and all I need to bring is my Bible and myself. I guess they don't do the whole women should be covered thing, though I will not be attending without mine in any event. Also, this particular leader I found through a Christian church website. They have the Messianic congregation as an affiliate. So they meet on Sundays like a regular church, but help out with the Messianic congregation on the Saturday evening (in the winter, 7.30pm is well past Sabbath here!) I will attend, but I will be cautious. It is about 35 miles away, so not exactly close.

However, there is a Jewish 'shul' about 12 miles down the road I could contact; failing that, there is another 24 miles in the opposite direction and another about 16 miles away. Meanwhile, I am attending regular church on Sunday mornings as I enjoy the fellowship and they are not antagonistic to my perspective. Also, my husband attends too, so he would not be happy if I stopped.

I have been reading David Stern's translation, The Complete Jewish Bible (he is a believer in Yeshua) and his Brit chadashah commentary, which have been helpful. I also have 'Walk Leviticus' - it seems that is where Jewish children start to learn , so I thought I would do likewise. Then I have some interesting books/commentaries by J K McKee, who was an Evangelical Christian until he began to search things for himself and now he is a Messianic teacher. Finally, I have started listening to a series of recorded sermons/teachings on a site called Beth Yeshua, which seems to be for beginners in Messianic ways. There is also one website that although it is 'sacred names' to an extent (they call Yeshua 'Yeshua'), they do seem to have some good teaching. I listened to a recorded sermon last week on the subject of 'Putting YHWH first', which was very helpful. They live stream their Sabbath services, but due to the time differential, it comes on right at our evening meal time, so I can't really listen to it; so what I do is listen to last weeks sermon the following Saturday morning.

My most recent foray into doing things 'properly' is in regard to kosher. I have not eaten pork or pork products, or shellfish for a few months now, but I am finding there is a lot more to it than just that, even if I don't want to follow all the rabbinical rules and regulations and just want to follow Biblical kosher laws. For instance, I made a mistake last evening and ate a cookie that had marshmallow in it, before realising it probably contained gelatine And my husband eats pork/bacon whenever he gets the chance My daughter on the other hand is trying to be more sensitive and doesn't eat things she thinks I would be unhappy with seeing her eat in front of me (though she was home at the weekend and she ate swordfish when we went out, but then I didn't know it wasn't kosher till afterwards - and there are those who say it might be, due to it having scales at some part of its life, though not at others, which is confusing).

Lastly, I have been preparing food for Friday evening's meal in batches large enough for two meals. My husband doesn't mind this, as we have done it before - eaten the food on one day and the leftovers the next. All it needs is heating through in the microwave, so while I do have to heat it, at least I don't have to spend an age preparing it. In short, I am doing the best I can with the circumstances I have at the moment. When our daughter came home at the weekend, I prepared a traditional Sabbath meal for us all to share, though my husband didn't really want to break the bread, but he did pray a blessing. And I was able to use candles, which my daughter appreciated - she likes a nicely set table and good food

It sounds like you've made a good start. Jewish prayers are great to learn from, though it isn't absolutely necessary to say a specific prayer at prescribed times all the time. Even the Amidah can be modified (the Lord's Prayer, for example, is based on this Jewish daily prayer).

Caution is a good thing. But remember that they are still learning too. the main things I'd watch out for is if they are set in false doctrine and will not learn, if they are Two House (a good possibility since they meet in a church) or if they exhibit any other signs of apostasy. But give them a chance; you may at least find some fellowship with like minded people.

I still attend the AoG with my wife most Sundays. I like the pastor, as he usually researches his sermons and does a good job. He's been on a tongues kick the last few weeks, and my wife gets irritated because she thinks (rightly at times)  am tearing the sermon apart in my mind. I can't win; but I like to go with her when I can anyhow. Just use discernment.

The CJB is a really good translation considering it was done by one man. However he does make some mistakes, and Stern is Two House. So it is always good to research for yourself.

I'm not familiar with J K McKee, so I'll offer no opinion on him. But if he is good, then it is good to have someone to listen to teaching about the Word.

I don't eat non-kosher foods, and I don't like marshmallows so ... but we all make mistakes. And living in a rural area thre is no place to really buy kosher food according to Jewish law. So if my beef was sliced on a machine that was just used to slice pork, I have no way of knowing. But the beef is cooked and I am told not to eat pork- so I don't eat it. We have to be sensible about this. We do, as you say, the best we can.

Posted by chrisg: PS, have you heard of the Club? Any thoughts or criticisms? 

No, I'm not familiar with them. Sorry.

Dan C

[chrisg]

The problem I have with eating kosher is that there are absolutely no kosher shops anywhere near here. I have discovered ONE kosher butcher, which is 250 miles away from me and they not only do not do mail order, they are very expensive too. I have no idea what the local Jewish population does about it. I suspect they have a group mail order so they can get meat in bulk and share it between them, or something similar. Meanwhile, I can't even buy matzah flour (or ready made matzah for that matter)! Our shops just do not cater for Jewish food preferences.

So I looked at the slaughter methods used in our abbatoirs and while not as humane as the Jewish rules, they do slit the throat and hang the meat. The main difference is the captive bolt shot to the head to stun the animal first. My husband would never dream of going vegetarian (and I'm not thrilled with the idea either, to be honest), which means I am using meat from the supermarket and making sure it is well cooked so there is no blood left in it as far as I can manage. So, I don't ask for my steak half done! and I don't cook it that way either.

Hopefully, I will find out where I can get kosher items when I get to attend the congregation at the end of October.

[garrett]

Hi chris - It seems like you are just doing your best. And it's best not to be too hard on yourself or allow any confusion to set in. When things become too confusing, troubling and perplexing then despair has a way of setting in. My circumstances have been like yours - but for many years. Many things have changed and improved and some things haven't. But the more you learn about the truth, the more you'll realize that you're really onto something.

Please don't take G-d's law and hang it around your neck like a noose. Like Alon mentioned, just do the best you can with your circumstances.

I sometimes wonder what G-d is thinking about the people who would, 2000 years later, begin adopting His true instructions (those who believe that Yeshua is the Messiah). I'd certainly give a penny for His thoughts about those of us who are trying to go back to the source of origin. But be encouraged, we all have 2000 years of time that has worked against us (and 2000 years of church history).

It's hard to know whether to go to a church or any shul nearby. Personally, I haven't been to a church in at least eight years. Sometimes I attend one of the many orthodox synagogues in my city, though they obviously don't recognize Yeshua as the Messiah. So that's understood. I stay away from Reform synagogues. They are very liberal religiously, socially and politically. They will believe or not believe in anything. They are kind of like a Unitarian Universalist church. Even the authorship of the actual can come into question in reform synagogues and they don't believe a physical Temple needs to be rebuilt, which is why they are often called Temple "such and such."

Anyways, from what you've written I can tell you have given this a lot thought - from who to congregate with, prayer life, sanctification of your food and how to manage this with others in your household. Just do the best you can do. When it comes down to it, you have acknowledged G-d as your creator, Yeshua as your Messiah and redeemer and you know that his scriptures are your instructions for living and nourishment. So you can do your best to keep in mind each mitzvah in the Bible but there is no sin in praying, eating and living in the best way you know how, with the circumstances that you have.

Hope this is helpful for you - garrett

[chrisg]

Thank you Garrett, yes, that was very helpful and encouraging

[Questor]

Sept 1, 2016 23:10:54 GMT -8 chrisg said:

The problem I have with eating kosher is that there are absolutely no kosher shops anywhere near here. I have discovered ONE kosher butcher, which is 250 miles away from me and they not only do not do mail order, they are very expensive too. I have no idea what the local Jewish population does about it. I suspect they have a group mail order so they can get meat in bulk and share it between them, or something similar. Meanwhile, I can't even buy matzah flour (or ready made matzah for that matter)! Our shops just do not cater for Jewish food preferences.

So I looked at the slaughter methods used in our abbatoirs and while not as humane as the Jewish rules, they do slit the throat and hang the meat. The main difference is the captive bolt shot to the head to stun the animal first. My husband would never dream of going vegetarian (and I'm not thrilled with the idea either, to be honest), which means I am using meat from the supermarket and making sure it is well cooked so there is no blood left in it as far as I can manage. So, I don't ask for my steak half done! and I don't cook it that way either.

Hopefully, I will find out where I can get kosher items when I get to attend the congregation at the end of October.

I don't have any Kosher butcher available, but eat only clean foods, and am doing my best to comply, knowing that G-d understands my doing my best.


I soak all meats now in saltwater for a time to remove any blood...and I actually found the reason medically (I always love it when G-d's rules for living turn out to have a practical aspect.)

HemeIron in the blood of animals can be dangerous to the health of people who over indulge in bloody protein...particularly weightlifters and such...and it is only found in hemoglobin.