My talks with some Orthodox Jews

[alon]

Aug 4, 2016 3:14:37 GMT -8 mystic said:

Well, here's where I'm at so far guys, there are way too many varying opinions and interpretations of the scriptures, for example, eating pork, some are saying leviticus 11 does not apply to me as a gentile, others are saying the opposite. Some christians are saying Jesus said it's ok for us to eat anything while others are saying the opposite. I am not a stickler for Paul or anyone else's teachings so I won't focus on them or noachide laws [since I have witnessed first hand the works of Jesus in my life].

Whether or not God has separate laws for Jews and Gentiles or whether or not Jesus was/is the Messiah, that is not my quarrel. With all of the many questions I ask of the many people I speak to, it's simply to gain more understanding of the scriptures and consider ALL opinions to get all of the different viewpoints on things as I respect everyone's opinions but at the end of the day since I don't know who is right and who is wrong my decision is to follow what my heart and spirit or the Holy Spirit is telling me and leading me to. I will continue to obey the 10 commandments of Moses except for the sabbath which is the only thing in question for me now which I am seeking to get to the bottom of to make sure I do what's right, in God's eyes, also live by all of Jesus's messages which reflect those commandments, that will be my spiritual walk unless God shows me another path.

Far as who is God, I believe in what the scripture reads "he is one" so I look to the sky [the heavens] whenever I'm praying to the father, I don't believe in the Trinity as God, exactly how Jesus and the Holy Spirit fits into this I will never know so as mentioned to cover all angles I simply usually pray to both Jesus and the father in the same sentence.

mystic, I was wondering about whether to talk about this with you. You are a fairly new believer who is asking far too many questions of far too many people who all have far too varying opinions. It is bound to get confusing. My thought is that you need to narrow your parameters in your search for the truth. Start with the most important question: Who and what is Yeshua? This is where your salvation starts. He is the lynchpin that holds everything together. Without a good understanding of this question, you have no salvation in the first place:

Acts 4:11-12 (ESV) This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.  And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

And I am further going to suggest that you get a good, easy to read translation of the Bible and study for yourself. I recommend either the English Standard Version or the New American Standard  as the most accurate and honest translations we have. The ESV is just a bit more readable, but it is missing some scriptures because they went strictly with what the oldest available manuscripts say. So I use the NASB myself, and would recommend it. Regardless what version you choose, asking others is the easy way. Who do you say Yeshua is?

Matthew 16:13-17 (ESV) Now when Jesus came into the district of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say that the Son of Man is?”  And they said, “Some say John the Baptist, others say Elijah, and others Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”  He said to them, “But who do you say that I am?”  Simon Peter replied, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”  And Jesus answered him, “Blessed are you, Simon Bar-Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father who is in heaven.

Prayerfully read the scriptures, starting with the four Gospels, then Acts. Pay attention to the references which point to other scriptures which relate to the ones you are reading. And above all, read everything in context. Ask yourself who as being spoken to? What was the topic of the discussion? Who is the one speaking? And remember that the idioms and figures of speech as well as the metaphors of the day are as important to your understanding as they were to the original listeners. So when for example you see a reference to Moses, what do they mean by it?

Acts 15:21 (ESV)  For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

What was Moses known for that might be read? And hearing Moses read every Sabbath in synagogue, what might a believer learn? And why would Christians be in a synagogue every week in the first place? Engage your mind instead of picking the minds of others. Then, if you are still struggling with the answers, ask. But you are going to have to limit those you trust to give answers to the questions you have trouble with to just a few; because as you are seeing, opinions and interpretations vary widely depending on the theology and prejudices of the one responding.

This is how we approach the Word. And we try to put our prejudices aside; but as you can also see because we do still disagree on some things, this isn't always possible. But the One by whose name you are saved does not want you to tell Him who I think He is. He wants to know who YOU think He is. And given the right answer, you too may receive the 'keys to the kingdom.'

As always, we are here to help. But the best help I can give you right now is to advise you to clear your head, get rid of all the voices telling you different things, and get into the Word, starting with who the Word tells you that Yeshua is.

Dan C

[alon]

Aug 3, 2016 16:59:37 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

It's easier for me to come to terms with it in the context of worship. There is G-d who is beyond our comprehension. How do we truly worship Him then? He gives Himself to us as Yeshua and Spirit so we can. There is no other way to draw near Him.

We have Yeshua to relate to. I personally need a face to imagine, and my favorite verses are the ones about us being at His feet. That's my place and G-d knows I need it. I am just human, and G-d is just that gracious.

As a side note, touch is literally a necessity for humans. Babies do not develop correctly without physical touch, eye contact, and such. That's how G-d made us and so that's how He relates to us. He accomplished that through Yeshua.

Then there is the Spirit so we know His presence. We know He is with us as we can better worship by unifing our own heart, mind, and soul through His presence.

Yeshua and The Spirit draw us closer to G-d. There is no Father, Son, and Spirit when we truly worship G-d. In that moment there is only G-d, and Yeshua and Spirit really are like an embrace. It's about how an infinite G-d can reach us, draw us near, and relate to us, We we are just human and we need Him to "break things down" for us so to speak.

Now why couldn't I have said it like that ... ?

"There is G-d who is beyond our comprehension"- I have said before that anyone who tells me they fully understand God either IS God (and Yeshua has not personally appeared to me as yet), or they are sadly deceived or a liar. We are given just what we need to know of God, but the essence of the issue is, as you describe it, our worship of the One true God of Yisro'el.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Thanks Alon, and thanks again for your explanation because it was only easy to put together and to say it that way after reading yours.

[jimmie]

Trinitarianism is a compromise between one God and many gods in which the Father = God, the Son = God and the Holy Ghost = God. However the Father does not = the Son does not = the Holy Ghost does not = the Father. I hope that makes since.

To supplement what alon and Elizibeth have said about The Father and the Son being one and the same and help kepha understand why we believe this, please consider this:

The people of Israel rejected God the Father as being their king and desired a fleshly king like the nations had. To correct that, the Father manifests himself in the flesh as the Son to reestablish his kingship over Israel. Israel has their fleshly king and God is that King.

When God shows up in the burning bush or as fire by night and a cloud by day or as a hand we do not deify each of these as a separate god. They are each and every one a manifestation of God Himself.

[alon]

The idea of a "Trinity" originates, as most everything in Christianity, in pagan religions. Pagans are by and large polytheistic (believing in more than one god). But this one has specific origins in ancient Babylon. The short version is Nimrod married his mother and they had a son, Tammuz. Nimrod set up himself and his mother as deities, however he was killed and his body dismembered. They found almost all of him, but to explain why he could not be resurrected it was said an incomplete body had to exist as spirit, so Nimrod rose to heaven. Tammuz got himself killed by a pig (that's appropriate) and so the son rose to sit on the thrones of heaven next to his father. Meanwhile Semiramis (wife and moms) stayed to guide and comfort her people. Touching, nu?

Dan C

edit: If memory serves, when Semiramis died, she became known as "Queen of Heaven," if that rings any warning bells for anyone.

[kepha]

Thanks Jimmie and Alon for the explanation,it does how ever raise questions in me.
If they are the same being who raised Yeshua the Son from the grave after he died?
Who did Yeshua cry out to on the cross of crucifixion when he said “My El my El why did you forsake me”? Did He forsake himself?
Also why in the singular form "El"?
I don't believe in the Trinity either. So no need to explain about the trinity. The Holy Spirit in YHWH and in us and not a third being.

Come to think about that, there are things that not even the Son knows but the Father knows alone. How can this be possible if they are one being?
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.

[alon]

Aug 5, 2016 6:01:08 GMT -8 kepha said:

Thanks Jimmie and Alon for the explanation,it does how ever raise questions in me.
If they are the same being who raised Yeshua the Son from the grave after he died?
Who did Yeshua cry out to on the cross of crucifixion when he said “My El my El why did you forsake me”? Did He forsake himself?
Also why in the singular form "El"?
I don't believe in the Trinity either. So no need to explain about the trinity. The Holy Spirit in YHWH and in us and not a third being.

Come to think about that, there are things that not even the Son knows but the Father knows alone. How can this be possible if they are one being?
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.

Elohim invested Himself in a human form, becoming fully man. This means Yeshua had all the limitations of a man. He was tempted (Mat 4:1-11), yet we know Elohim cannot be tempted (James 1:13). He had to learn everything just as all human children (Luke 2:41-52). And the references to His dependence for all He did on the Ruach HaKodesh are too numerous to mention. Had He not been fully God, Yeshua could not have atoned for our sins. But had He not been fully man He could not have done this either. He lived a perfectly spotless life, and died in our place, carrying our sins. Because of this, that part of God which is Adonai could not look upon Yeshua as He hung there.

The scripture you reference is:

Mat 27:46 (KJV)  And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Mar 15:34 (KJV)  And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani ? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

Eli is Hebrew, but ELoi is Aramaic, as is lama sabachthani as I understand it. So the Greek translator was apparently working from an Aramaic copy of the original Hebrew, and he was having trouble translating it because the word sabachthani carries connotations of being spared. So he also gave the actual statement as it was on his source document. As far as I can tell (I don't speak Biblical Hebrew or Aramaic) both Eli and Eloi are masculine singular derivatives of the word El. Yeshua may have used the singular because in effect, the essence of Elohim was divided as He hung there, separated from Adonai for the first (and only) time. And in any event it would be appropriate to call the One True God by a singular title.

The possibility exists that, since the word sabachthani  also carried the meaning of salvation as well as desertion, He was indicating that He and Adonai were apart now because He was carrying our sins, but would become reunited as sure as the resurrection, which He never doubted. Using a singular form of the title would have enhanced the meaning in this case.

That was a good question. While I've heard much of this before, I had to think 'why?'  Which is always a good thing to ask.

Dan C

[kepha]

Thanks Alon for that, but still what about this verse
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
This surely can't be if Elohim in only one being. How do you hide some thing known to you to yourself?

Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3974/talks-orthodox-jews#ixzz4GU5eRuvn

[Elizabeth]

Aug 5, 2016 10:42:24 GMT -8 kepha said:

Thanks Alon for that, but still what about this verse
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
This surely can't be if Elohim in only one being. How do you hide some thing known to you to yourself?

Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3974/talks-orthodox-jews#ixzz4GU5eRuvn

I know you asked Alon, but I want feedback for my thoughts as well so hope you don't mind if I join in the conversation.

My first thought was that we need to distinguish in our own minds what it means that Yeshua is both Son of G-d, and Son of Man. In Mark 13:26 He actually referred to Himself as the Son of Man. So that is the context for this verse, not Son of G-d.

This to me implies He submitted Himself to the limitations of humans, with the purpose to lead us and secure our salvation. This was only for a time in order to fulfill and perfectly keeping is a requirement for establishing the Kingdom.  

I think the distinction between Son of G-d and Son of Man may be what is confusing. Yeshua was not just G-d in this moment, He was G-d submitting Himself to the limitations of man to fulfill the and G-d's intentions for man. This would include submitting Himself to our limits of knowledge and understanding as well. Isn't that exactly the first sin; wanting to be like G-d and know what He knows. Yeshua did the opposite in order to overcome it.

This was when G-d submitted Himself to humanity to overcome our human weaknesses. I believe now as a Heavenly King He knows the day and hour. I think He's counting them down.

[alon]

Aug 5, 2016 10:42:24 GMT -8 kepha said:

Thanks Alon for that, but still what about this verse
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
This surely can't be if Elohim in only one being. How do you hide some thing known to you to yourself?

Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3974/talks-orthodox-jews#ixzz4GU5eRuvn

Sorry. I forgot to reply to that. This is another place Christian doctrine is skewed because they never learned about the customs of the Hebrew people. This is marriage language; and as we know marriage is a metaphor for and an example of El and His plan for us. After the proposal was accepted and the kethuba (marriage agreement) completed and signed, the groom went to prepare a place for his bride. He could not actually take his bride until his father said he and the place were ready. This typically was over a year. So if anyone asked when he would go/come for his bride, he would respond that "Only my father knows the day and the hour."

While here on earth, Yeshua wouldn't have known, nor would He have wanted to know. The confusion comes in where we find doctrines that say 'Jesus' is a separate being, or that once God became man 'Jesus' had to keep that form, never being reunited as Spirit; and the worst are doctrines saying He was a created being, not eternally existent God. So we have this Christian God (or god) just sitting in heaven waiting to be told to come back and collect His bride. Even worse, they don't think He's coming for us, but we are all (or them at least) going to get yanked out before anything bad happens in the last days. Even my dad, a Southern Baptist preacher, was questioning that one before he died. And we are not told the year or the hour, but if the Spring feasts were a minute by minute dressed rehearsal for His first advent as HaMoshiach, and if God does not change, then understanding the Fall feasts will likely tell us when He is coming again. But that is another long and detailed study. And I suspect that if you look in the section on the Moedim here you might find something. If not, maybe that would be a good thing to do as we draw closer to the Fall feasts. At any rate, the Christian doctrine that we aren't told anything about 'when' is false. We were warned, and a parable told about Christians and Messianics- they are the foolish virgins, we are the wise ones. Because we read scripture with a first century Jewish mindset. And we (you included now) recognize wedding language when we see it.

Dan C

[alon]

Aug 5, 2016 11:24:33 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Aug 5, 2016 10:42:24 GMT -8 kepha said:

Thanks Alon for that, but still what about this verse
Mar 13:32 But concerning that day and the hour, no one knows, not the angels, those
in Heaven, nor the Son, except the Father.
This surely can't be if Elohim in only one being. How do you hide some thing known to you to yourself?

Read more: theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3974/talks-orthodox-jews#ixzz4GU5eRuvn

I know you asked Alon, but I want feedback for my thoughts as well so hope you don't mind if I join in the conversation.

My first thought was that we need to distinguish in our own minds what it means that Yeshua is both Son of G-d, and Son of Man. In Mark 13:26 He actually referred to Himself as the Son of Man. So that is the context for this verse, not Son of G-d.

This to me implies He submitted Himself to the limitations of humans, with the purpose to lead us and secure our salvation. This was only for a time in order to fulfill and perfectly keeping is a requirement for establishing the Kingdom.  

I think the distinction between Son of G-d and Son of Man may be what is confusing. Yeshua was not just G-d in this moment, He was G-d submitting Himself to the limitations of man to fulfill the and G-d's intentions for man. This would include submitting Himself to our limits of knowledge and understanding as well. Isn't that exactly the first sin; wanting to be like G-d and know what He knows. Yeshua did the opposite in order to overcome it.

This was when G-d submitted Himself to humanity to overcome our human weaknesses. I believe now as a Heavenly King He knows the day and hour. I think He's counting them down.

Yep!

Dan C

[kepha]

Ok thank you.

[jimmie]

kepha,

Tring to put God into terms that man can understand is a tricky business. So here is my atempt:
First let’s look at three passages from Palams:
Ps 20:6 Now know I that the LORD saveth his anointed; he will hear him from his holy heaven with the saving strength of his right hand.
Ps 44: 2 How thou didst drive out the heathen with thy hand, and plantedst them; how thou didst afflict the people, and cast them out.
3 For they got not the land in possession by their own sword, neither did their own arm save them: but thy right hand, and thine arm, and the light of thy countenance, because thou hadst a favour unto them.
Ps 118:14 The LORD is my strength and song, and is become my salvation.
15 The voice of rejoicing and salvation is in the tabernacles of the righteous: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
16 The right hand of the LORD is exalted: the right hand of the LORD doeth valiantly.
Salvation is in the right hand of the LORD.

If you trace the meaning of Jesus back to the Hebrew, you will find that it means Salvation. This is why we find Jesus on the right hand of the father:

Matthew 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mark 14:62 And Jesus said, I am: and ye shall see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.

Mark 16:19 So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God.

Acts 2:25 For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved:

Acts 2:33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
Acts 7:56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.

Romans 8:34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

Ephesians 1:20 Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,

Colossians 3:1 | |
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Hebrews 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

Hebrews 1:13 But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?

Hebrews 8:1 Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;

Hebrews 10:12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God;

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the , and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.



The right hand of the Father is where our Salvation comes from:

Matthew 25:33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

Matthew 25:34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

1 Peter 3:22 (Jesus) Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Luke 23:33 And when they were come to the place, which is called Calvary, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand, and the other on the left. (one is saved and one is not. Though it is not called out that the one on the right was the one saved)

“Eli” translated as “My God” can also mean “My Power”. From the human perspective Jesus’ power had forsaken him. But, from God’s perspective, He lay his right hand down and he picked it back up in three days.

[alon]

jimmie, good attempt! That one is going in my notes, if you don't mind.

Dan C

[jimmie]

Be my guest.