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Post by mystic on Aug 3, 2016 2:59:54 GMT -8
Well, I have been absent for a little while because I was talking to some Orthodox Jews [OJ's] to get their side of things on certain issues. Dan, I will create separate threads for the different issues but let me start with the basics here please.
So first thing, I had always thought the OJ's only beef with Jesus was that he was not the messiah referred to in the OT but what they are also saying is that Christian believe that Jesus is God himself. The way I see this guys, is that Jesus is a representative or next to God as his son/helper/advocate e.t.c but no, not God himself. Since a lot christians believe in the Trinity, how do you see Jesus guys?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 3, 2016 5:50:30 GMT -8
We believe that Yeshua is G-d manifested as a man complete and whole to be with us for no other reason than He loved us and that's what we need Him to be. You're asking us to explain something that is ultimately based on faith, which comes from knowing G-d. We can't explain what just comes from G-d through faith. By definition it is beyond our understanding, but He gives it to us anyway, again simply because we need it. We can't explain how Yeshua was G-d and man anymore then they could explain G-d in a cloud or fire. We can't explain why He did this other than G-d just knows us and that we needed Him to be this. However, as we have discussed this somewhat on another thread, I will just hand you our thoughts (Alon's, Garrett's, and mine's) because we are wondering about this as well. 1) If their issue is that we are idolaters, we are not according to our own beliefs as we see Messiah Yeshua as G-d. We have suspicions that they are, or at least many of them are, as they seem more invested in the MAN they regard as Messiah than G-d Himself. 2) We believe in an eternal Davidic Kingdom and G-d as eternal King according to literal scriptural interpretations. Therefore, Yeshua is simply the manifestation of this promise literally in accordance with our beliefs and literal scriptural interpretation. 3) We think it more likely that G-d would be the one to defeat Israel's enemies, accomplish world peace and earth wide  rule. Their theory seems a bit more outlandish in our minds because of the limitations of human beings. We believe Messiah is G-d and don't think that's a far fetched suggestion given the nature of what he will and must accomplish. G-d has worked through men throughout scripture and the only difference is that Yeshua also fulfills His will that Israel only need and rely on G-d, which brings me to number 4. 4) Ultimately, I think I can speak for all of us (  ?), I may be reaching but based on the other thread I think I can say that we see Yeshua as the answer to Israel's plea for an earthly King while ultimately fullfilling the will of G-d that only He be their King, as in asking for an earthly King they rejected G-d as their King. (1 Samuel chapter 8) |
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Post by mystic on Aug 3, 2016 6:06:35 GMT -8
We believe that Yeshua is G-d manifested as a man complete and whole to be with us for no other reason than that's what we need Him to be. You're asking us to explain something that is ultimately based on faith, which comes from knowing G-d. We can't explain what just comes from G-d through faith. By definition it is beyond our understanding, but He gives it to us anyway, again simply because we need it. We can't explain how Yeshua was G-d and man anymore then they could explain G-d in a cloud or fire. We can't explain why He did this other than G-d just knows us and that we needed Him to be this. If Jesus was God himself then why was he always referring to God as "his father" please? |
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 3, 2016 6:45:59 GMT -8
We believe that Yeshua is G-d manifested as a man complete and whole to be with us for no other reason than that's what we need Him to be. You're asking us to explain something that is ultimately based on faith, which comes from knowing G-d. We can't explain what just comes from G-d through faith. By definition it is beyond our understanding, but He gives it to us anyway, again simply because we need it. We can't explain how Yeshua was G-d and man anymore then they could explain G-d in a cloud or fire. We can't explain why He did this other than G-d just knows us and that we needed Him to be this. If Jesus was God himself then why was he always referring to God as "his father" please? I am sure someone else can give you a better more concise answer. I cannot do more than tell you what little I can comprehend, while reminding you that we cannot expect to always understand G-d's ways. We must accept some things on His terms, faith, because we cannot understand G-d's ways. Yeshua called G-d His father because He is also man. Yeshua is G-d who speaks our language and walks with us for our sake. He as a man submitted His will to G-d's will for G-d's will for man to be accomplished. Do you see the problem we have? We as humans need to accomplish G-d's will to be with G-d, but we as humans need G-d with us to be able to accomplish it. Yeshua solved this problem for us. Again, the how is beyond our comprehension. The why is that we needed it. We are stuck in a place of needing G-d and His will but being unable to reach it and accomplish it. Yeshua bridged the divide between G-d and man that we could not so that we could have G-d to achieve what he made us to achieve. Yeshua submitted Himself to G-d and to humanity to accomplish G-d's will for humanity. He epitomizes loving G-d and man perfectly and completely while solving the fundamental problematic state humanity is in; needing G-d to live and accomplish His will but not being worthy or able to be with Him and live to do it. |
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Post by mystic on Aug 3, 2016 7:04:06 GMT -8
Alright, if I understand you correctly, God made a human being version of himself to walk among us to teach us his ways and what he expects from us?
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 3, 2016 7:39:11 GMT -8
Alright, if I understand you correctly, God made a human being version of himself to walk among us to teach us his ways and what he expects from us? I think of it more as G-d giving Himself over to humanity, yes to teach us by walking with us, but more so because only He can accomplish His will for us. We were created to walk and live with G-d. The predicament we are in is based fundamentally on our complete dependence on G-d. We need G-d to overcome our corruption. Yet, we also can't be with G-d because of the corrupt state we're in. He overcomes our corruption for us because otherwise we can't be with Him. The predicament is that we have to have Him to find our way through the corrupt state the world is in, but can't be with Him in our own corruption. Kind of circular and confusing I know, but it's circular because that's how dependent we are on Him. It all has to be from Him. |
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Post by kepha on Aug 3, 2016 8:54:21 GMT -8
We believe YHWH to be a family name consisting of Yah, YHWH the Father, and Yeshua YHWH his Son. We believe them to be two separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love by the Holy Spirit. Gen 1:26, and Gen 19:24, shows this duality of beings. Deut 6:4, also states "YHWH Elohim, YHWH Echad" (united, supreme). This word echad in the Hebrew shows a duality of YHWH. We believe that YHWH the Father is greater than Yeshua the Son, (Jn 5:30, Matt 19:7) in both power and Authority, but commands us to honor Yeshua as we honor Him (Jn 5:23).
We believe Yeshua to be the Messenger of YHWH in the Tanach (Old Testament) Is 42:1, Ex 3:2, Gen 18:1-33 Ps 110 1:7 Ps 45:1-8, Ps 2:1-7, and also the very Son of YHWH (Pr 30:4). The Hebrew word "Malak" which is translated into English in most cases as Angel, literally means Messenger. Even men are referred to as Malaks (2 Sam 11:19). Yeshua was the Malak or Messenger of YHWH, but is not an Angel (Heb 1:5,13) but is also Elohim (Jn 1:1-13).
Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. °
"im" is showing plural form of Eloh showing us there is more then one being in Elohim. Our image, Our likeness......well explains it self. This tells us that Yeshua the Son was right there at the Creation in the beginning and was actually Co-Creator.
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2016 10:48:05 GMT -8
We believe YHWH to be a family name consisting of Yah, YHWH the Father, and Yeshua YHWH his Son. We believe them to be two separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love by the Holy Spirit. Gen 1:26, and Gen 19:24, shows this duality of beings. Deut 6:4, also states "YHWH Elohim, YHWH Echad" (united, supreme). This word echad in the Hebrew shows a duality of YHWH. We believe that YHWH the Father is greater than Yeshua the Son, (Jn 5:30, Matt 19:7) in both power and Authority, but commands us to honor Yeshua as we honor Him (Jn 5:23). We believe Yeshua to be the Messenger of YHWH in the Tanach (Old Testament) Is 42:1, Ex 3:2, Gen 18:1-33 Ps 110 1:7 Ps 45:1-8, Ps 2:1-7, and also the very Son of YHWH (Pr 30:4). The Hebrew word "Malak" which is translated into English in most cases as Angel, literally means Messenger. Even men are referred to as Malaks (2 Sam 11:19). Yeshua was the Malak or Messenger of YHWH, but is not an Angel (Heb 1:5,13) but is also Elohim (Jn 1:1-13). Gen 1:26 And Eloh im said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. ° "im" is showing plural form of Eloh showing us there is more then one being in Elohim. Our image, Our likeness......well explains it self. This tells us that Yeshua the Son was right there at the Creation in the beginning and was actually Co-Creator.
kepha, I can agree with most of what you say. However I believe the statement "We believe them to be two separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love by the Holy Spirit" is Christian theology; Trinitarianism. We believe Elohim to be One, not 'Three.' That would be polytheism. Read my reply to mystic (which I am about to post) for a more complete explanation. It will be long enough without my saying it twice.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2016 11:08:31 GMT -8
Your problem in talking to Orthodox Jews about what we believe is they want to lump all Meshiachim in with Christianity. They don't understand us, and human nature is not to learn what you do not like, but just lump them with other similar folk you also dislike. As we’ve explained, we do not believe as Christians do, nor for that matter as any sect of Judaism. We’ve shown you here that we do not interpret the B’rith Chadashah as Christians do, ourselves ripping apart every Christian concept and interpretation. So do not let the Orthodox Jews define us, as neither you nor they will benefit from this. We are different.
We do believe as the Jews do that “Hear, O Israel! The Lord is our God, the Lord is one!” (Deu 6:4). The word for “One” there is the Hebrew “Echad.” There are other words for one in Hebrew, but this word carries the connotations of a composite unity. Not a Trinity, as that would mean three separate Gods.
Genesis 1:27 (NASB) God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.
This does not mean we are exactly like God, any more than your reflection in the mirror is another you. It does mean that many of the qualities of God are in you. You were made with a body, mind and spirit. This is a reflection of the primary attributes of God. Another place the word ‘echad’ is used is when man and woman become ‘one’ flesh, and a family unit is formed. This metaphor is used throughout scripture to explain God’s will for mankind. In the family, the husband (adon) is the head of this family unit. The wife (reah or isha) is helper, supporter, comforter. This you may recognize is what the Ruach HaKodesh does for us. And the eldest son is primarily the one who is the continuation of the family line. He will one day take his place as head of the family.
Elohim Himself is, like us (because He made us in His image) made manifest metaphorically and in reality in three primary ways:
- Adonai/Father- the head, Elohim in His full glory, the Will who makes all decissions
- HaBen/the Son- the Will manifest as the Word, through which we are instructed
- Ruach HaKodesh- Spirit of God, or Holy Spirit, through which HaShem works His Will in the world
Now your Orthodox friends will immediately cry “See there, they believe in the Trinity.” No, and if they think about it HaShem was manifest to us/them in many ways in the TNK: a pillar of smoke and fire, a cloud with lightnings and thunders and voices, a burning bush, a brazier and lamp. He also concentrated His entire essence on the Mercy Seat, while still filling the universe with His presence and holding it all together. I don’t think they will dispute any of that. Why then is it so impossible to think He could manifest Himself in this way in order to interact with us in a manner which we could understand?
The simple answer is it isn’t, according to one Orthodox man I spoke with. The real problem is the belief Elohim would die for them. Even though there is no proscription against self-sacrifice (not suicide, but the equivalent of jumping on a grenade to save others), many see this as simple human sacrifice which is proscribed. The real reason though is that the Church usurped this idea and turned it into a pagan theology of three separate members of a deity. And the Church persecuted the Jews. So there is understandably two millennia of hatred and animosity there. The Jewish people are also a much more cohesive and close-knit group than Gentiles. They may disagree vehemently with each other on many issues, but they will always stand against Christian encroachment into any part of Judaism.
Many see Messianism as just such an attempt by Christians to make “our” views more palatable and thus entice Jews away from the faith. There may be some who do this, but I hope you can see from our conversations we are not them; nor do we consider them to be true Messianics. In fact, if you’ve read what we write here at all you can see the Christains have far more to fear from our movement than the Jews do. We seek out and present the truth in scripture to anyone who wishes to hear it. We do not browbeat anyone with our beliefs, but simply tell those who ask. And we have not tried to pressure you or anyone into becoming Messianic. On the contrary, I’ve told you to make sure before you choose this path. It is your choice, and is a commitment before Elohim; and as such it is a serious thing. I’ve advised going slowly for that reason, and be careful the commitments you make.
Just as an aside, no Jew has to “convert” in order to become Messianic. He would simply have to believe Yeshua is HaMoshiach. I on the other hand did have to convert. I became a proselyte to Messianic Judaism, and am still learning. In fact, if your Orthodox friend and I were in the same location, and he became a believer, I’d have far more to learn from him than he would from me. If there were no others more learned around, he would in effect become my Rabbi. So I do have a tremendous respect for the amount of knowledge he must have and the dedication it takes for him to acquire that knowledge base. So if we were to “argue” (present each other with statements which can be ‘proven’ true or false) I would probably learn a lot from him. However there are areas where I believe his theology is wrong. And it is like I tell Christians with advanced degrees- an advanced degree in false theology is still false. Not that I can’t learn from them either, but when you are wrong about something, being smart or educated doesn’t change the facts. The “Trinity” is one area where I think both are wrong. And I am still learning.
Back to our view of God. He is One; but that One is made manifest to us in many ways which minister to us and which we can understand. He has chosen to interact with the physical world of which we are a part and which He created. Decisions are made by Adonai, the Father. They are spoken by HaBen, the Son who is a manifestation of the infinite God, not another separate being. It is this Son who gave the to Moshe and who appeared to Avraham, and who wrestled with Ya’akoz. Any time man has seen, spoken with or heard from Elohim, it was this “Son,” the ultimate manifestation of which we find in Yeshua HaMoshiach. And from creation to this day the Ruach, the Spirit of God has been active in the world accomplishing the will of HaSHem. Our comforter and shield. This is the Ruach Olam of Heb 9:14.
Hebrews 9:14 (CJB) then how much more the blood of the Messiah, who, through the eternal Spirit, offered himself to God as a sacrifice without blemish, will purify our conscience from works that lead to death, so that we can serve the living God!
This is our view of HaShem, and of Yeshua who was and is a manifestation of Hashem in the physical world in which we live; and if they wish to argue it they will have to do so in this context. But Yeshua as a manifestation of HaShem is as much eternal deity as Adonai or the Ruach, neither of which (those last two) I suspect they will deny. I’ll answer your/their questions the best I can based on this belief system. But if they want to argue based on Christian misconceptions, I am afraid we’ll just have an agreement-fest.
One other point: we are speaking each through you, and I doubt you can accurately convey either our or their views accurately. Let him read what I say, if he wishes. That's easy enough. Then at least one side will be first hand. My email is listed in my profile if he wishes to contact me directly.
Dan C
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Post by kepha on Aug 3, 2016 13:09:39 GMT -8
kepha, I can agree with most of what you say. However I believe the statement "We believe them to be two separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love by the Holy Spirit" is Christian theology; Trinitarianism. We believe Elohim to be One, not 'Three.' That would be polytheism. Read my reply to mystic (which I am about to post) for a more complete explanation. It will be long enough without my saying it twice.
Dan C
Dan you are understanding me wrong here. We also believe there is two beings one sits on the White throne, The Father, and His Son sits on a throne of His own on the right hand OF the Father. We do not believe the Trinitarianism that says They are actually one being, it is so wrong. By echad (one) let me explain it to you like this, when a man and a woman are married they become one in mind, thought and love, look at a couple married for lets say 30 years, when you speak to them you can see them looking at each other, and with out saying a word they know exactly what the other ones think. They became one echad. So it is with Avinu and Messiah by Messiah submitting His whole will and mind and spirit under the Will of His Father, they stayed two different beings, but the Spirit that is in Avinu is the same in the Son and is the Holy Spirit of which we get a small part when being baptize. The Spirit is not a being, it is the spirit in Elohim and in us when we receive it.
They cant be only one Being like the Christians say, who was in Heaven then if the one Being was on earth then??
To who did messiah pray to in heaven if Elohim is only one being and He is on earth??? It is very clear there are two beings in the YHWH family.
Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. °
"im" is showing plural form of Eloh showing us there is more then one being in Elohim. Let Us, Our image, Our likeness......well explains it self. This tells us that Yeshua the Son was right there at the Creation in the beginning and was actually Co-Creator.
Trinitarianism say there is only one Being and it manifest It self in the three characters of the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. There are so many verses that show this can't be.
Trinitarianism is the Christian doctrine that God exists as three persons (Greek hypostases) but is one being. The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.
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Post by alon on Aug 3, 2016 14:31:31 GMT -8
kepha, I can agree with most of what you say. However I believe the statement " We believe them to be two separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love by the Holy Spirit" is Christian theology; Trinitarianism. We believe Elohim to be One, not 'Three.' That would be polytheism. Read my reply to mystic (which I am about to post) for a more complete explanation. It will be long enough without my saying it twice. Dan C Dan you are understanding me wrong here. We also believe there is two beings one sits on the White throne, The Father, and His Son sits on a throne of His own on the right hand OF the Father. We do not believe the Trinitarianism that says They are actually one being, it is so wrong. By echad (one) let me explain it to you like this, when a man and a woman are married they become one in mind, thought and love, look at a couple married for lets say 30 years, when you speak to them you can see them looking at each other, and with out saying a word they know exactly what the other ones think. They became one echad. So it is with Avinu and Messiah by Messiah submitting His whole will and mind and spirit under the Will of His Father, they stayed two different beings, but the Spirit that is in Avinu is the same in the Son and is the Holy Spirit of which we get a small part when being baptize. The Spirit is not a being, it is the spirit in Elohim and in us when we receive it. They cant be only one Being like the Christians say, who was in Heaven then if the one Being was on earth then??
To who did messiah pray to in heaven if Elohim is only one being and He is on earth??? It is very clear there are two beings in the YHWH family. Gen 1:26 And Elohim said, let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea, and over the birds of the heavens, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over all the creepers creeping on the earth. ° "im" is showing plural form of Eloh showing us there is more then one being in Elohim. Let Us, Our image, Our likeness......well explains it self. This tells us that Yeshua the Son was right there at the Creation in the beginning and was actually Co-Creator. Trinitarianism say there is only one Being and it manifest It self in the three characters of the Father The Son and the Holy Spirit. There are so many verses that show this can't be. Trinitarianism is the Christian doctrine that God exists as three persons (Greek hypostases) but is one being. The persons are understood to exist as God the Father, God the Son (incarnate as Jesus Christ), and God the Holy Spirit, each of them having the one identical essence or nature, not merely similar natures.
Yes, I understand you only believe in two members of the Godhead. But that still has the same problem as the Christian Trinitarian view. They have three, you only have two, and their Gods are also "separate beings, but are one in thought, mind, and love." But Elohim Himself said there was only One. And it is true He said "echad" which I agree suggests a composite unity. However it does not mean more than one god, no matter how you define it. Elohim (plural) referred to Himself in the plural all through scripture. However that does not mean He is two or three; instead it refers to God in all the fullness of the attributes of God- a thing no false god could legitimately claim. And when He said He was going to make man in His image, He was making someone with body, mind and spirit, just like Himself (metaphorically). He did not make Chava until later, so Elohim was not talking about making a man and wife- just a man in three parts, or three main attributes, just like Himself. So yes, He referred to Himself in the plural. But can you separate your body from either your mind/will? Or from your spirit? Then why try to separate God into more than One? It is a holdover from Christian Trinitarian thinking. But an infinite God can, as He pleases, manifest Himself in any way He desires.
Scripture also makes use of metaphors to explain things so we can understand them. Metaphorically, Yeshua IS the "Right Hand of God." Metaphorically Elohim sits on thrones (even though He is Spirit). And you are using the term "manifest" incorrectly lumping it into Trinitarianism. Christians do not believe there is only one being in heaven. They believe there ARE three individuals who are parts of the Godhead. You believe there ARE two, so saying He manifests as a Spirit does not make your view correct either. Part right is still part wrong. More than one God or god is still polytheism and still incorrect.
Yeshua called God the Father because, as when Elohim sat on the Mercy Seat yet still filled the universe, He still existed in that realm. As an infinite God He invested Himself fully in the form of a man, taking on the limitations of men. So while a man He could not be worshiped, and while a man He still prayed to Adonai and called on the Father. As Immanuel, God with us, He was our example. This is how He expects us to be and do also. Why? We were made in His image.
Dan C
edit: I want to stress here that this is not negative criticism. Leaving teachings such as Trinitarianism take time, and it is a difficult thing for most Meshiachim coming out of Christianity. To make things more difficult, we are all interpreting the same scriptures differently. Some get stuck halfway, taking a ditheistic view. Others like myself fought tooth and claw for Trinitarianism until we became convinced and convicted that there was and is and ever will be only One God.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 3, 2016 16:59:37 GMT -8
It's easier for me to come to terms with it in the context of worship. There is G-d who is beyond our comprehension. How do we truly worship Him then? He gives Himself to us as Yeshua and Spirit so we can. There is no other way to draw near Him.
We have Yeshua to relate to. I personally need a face to imagine, and my favorite verses are the ones about us being at His feet. That's my place and G-d knows I need it. I am just human, and G-d is just that gracious.
As a side note, touch is literally a necessity for humans. Babies do not develop correctly without physical touch, eye contact, and such. That's how G-d made us and so that's how He relates to us. He accomplished that through Yeshua.
Then there is the Spirit so we know His presence. We know He is with us as we can better worship by unifing our own heart, mind, and soul through His presence.
Yeshua and The Spirit draw us closer to G-d. There is no Father, Son, and Spirit when we truly worship G-d. In that moment there is only G-d, and Yeshua and Spirit really are like an embrace. It's about how an infinite G-d can reach us, draw us near, and relate to us, We we are just human and we need Him to "break things down" for us so to speak.
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2016 3:14:37 GMT -8
Well, here's where I'm at so far guys, there are way too many varying opinions and interpretations of the scriptures, for example, eating pork, some are saying leviticus 11 does not apply to me as a gentile, others are saying the opposite. Some christians are saying Jesus said it's ok for us to eat anything while others are saying the opposite. I am not a stickler for Paul or anyone else's teachings so I won't focus on them or noachide laws [since I have witnessed first hand the works of Jesus in my life].
Whether or not God has separate laws for Jews and Gentiles or whether or not Jesus was/is the Messiah, that is not my quarrel. With all of the many questions I ask of the many people I speak to, it's simply to gain more understanding of the scriptures and consider ALL opinions to get all of the different viewpoints on things as I respect everyone's opinions but at the end of the day since I don't know who is right and who is wrong my decision is to follow what my heart and spirit or the Holy Spirit is telling me and leading me to. I will continue to obey the 10 commandments of Moses except for the sabbath which is the only thing in question for me now which I am seeking to get to the bottom of to make sure I do what's right, in God's eyes, also live by all of Jesus's messages which reflect those commandments, that will be my spiritual walk unless God shows me another path.
Far as who is God, I believe in what the scripture reads "he is one" so I look to the sky [the heavens] whenever I'm praying to the father, I don't believe in the Trinity as God, exactly how Jesus and the Holy Spirit fits into this I will never know so as mentioned to cover all angles I simply usually pray to both Jesus and the father in the same sentence.
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Post by Elizabeth on Aug 4, 2016 4:42:14 GMT -8
Wishing you well and prayers for you in your searching mystic. There is a lot out there to confuse and to strive to make sense of, but ultimately it's just between you and G-d. Prayers for you and your family, and thanks for the interesting conversations. I got to think things through a bit more too.  |
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Post by mystic on Aug 4, 2016 5:54:00 GMT -8
Thanks Elizabeth, wishing you the same sentiments in your searches too. I am pretty sure some things will change in my walk as I dig deeper into the word and acquire more knowledge.
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rule. Their theory seems a bit more outlandish in our minds because of the limitations of human beings. We believe Messiah is G-d and don't think that's a far fetched suggestion given the nature of what he will and must accomplish. G-d has worked through men throughout scripture and the only difference is that Yeshua also fulfills His will that Israel only need and rely on G-d, which brings me to number 4.
