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Post by chrisg on May 31, 2016 12:58:44 GMT -8
I was asked today what is the purpose of the Law? It was not asking what is the point of keeping it, but what actually is the Law for to the Christian believer? I actually can't answer the question, other than 'the Law is our schoolmaster to lead us to God' but that doesn't help as the person who asked is looking for reasons why we shouldn't obey it
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Post by alon on May 31, 2016 18:15:28 GMT -8
I was asked today what is the purpose of the Law? It was not asking what is the point of keeping it, but what actually is the Law for to the Christian believer? I actually can't answer the question, other than 'the Law is our schoolmaster to lead us to God' but that doesn't help as the person who asked is looking for reasons why we shouldn't obey it
 means instructions. It is God's instructions for us to live a holy life; a life set apart for Him.
As a Christian looking not to keep those instructions, he need only run to the nearest pastor who will tickle his ears; telling him Jesus did away with all those Jewish laws. Or he can listen to you tell him he truth. Yeshua never changed His :
Mat 5:18 (KJV) For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
He never said it was just for the Jews:
Exo 12:49 (KJV) One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
He also said:
Jhn 14:15 (KJV) If ye love me, keep my commandments.
And finally, if he wert truly saved, he doth soujerneth amongst the Jews anyhow, even to becoming one:
Rom 11:17 (KJV) And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
His choice. Hope you can help him make the right one.
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Jun 2, 2016 14:00:39 GMT -8
Thanks Dan, that's very helpful
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Post by garrett on Jun 2, 2016 14:02:25 GMT -8
chris, Alon stated it pretty well. As I re-read your question it occurred to me that the person might even find it more beneficial to "look for reasons why we SHOULD obey it." Looking for reasons to not obey becomes a slippery slope and things get very muddled and confusing for no good reason at all. Can this person truly find a good reason to have no other god before Him? Or to love Him with everything you have? Or to not kill? Or to not covet? Or not be an adulterer? Or to not take His name in vain? To remember the Sabbath?....that's where it will get sticky. And as pointed out, there are a million pastors who will give this person a reason to not guard this holiest day of convocation (please keep in mind that I'm not pastor bashing though). If you are a human being, then you were created by G-d! and following G-d's can actually be....enjoyable!!! And if you get something wrong or fall backwards then you just get back up and start over - each day. And observing and being mindful of the biblical holy days/moedim will be a turning point for a lot of people, especially if they realize they might have to turn away from "holidays" that are pagan and un-biblical. Just my thoughts. Hope it's helpful. |
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Post by chrisg on Jun 3, 2016 7:29:59 GMT -8
It's mainly the Sabbath question along with the other feasts and keeping kosher that he is having trouble with. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in one form or another in the New testament so he is happy with those. But mainly, he is a lawyer and wants me to explain to him the purpose of the law. I suspect he wants me to say that it is (was) our schoolmaster to bring us to God and that now we have been brought to God, we no longer need it; and/or the law was given to show us our sin, and now we have been forgiven, there is no need for the law.
Edited to add: the 'he' in question happens to be my son.
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Post by alon on Jun 3, 2016 11:48:27 GMT -8
It's mainly the Sabbath question along with the other feasts and keeping kosher that he is having trouble with. Nine of the ten commandments are repeated in one form or another in the New testament so he is happy with those. But mainly, he is a lawyer and wants me to explain to him the purpose of the law. I suspect he wants me to say that it is (was) our schoolmaster to bring us to God and that now we have been brought to God, we no longer need it; and/or the law was given to show us our sin, and now we have been forgiven, there is no need for the law. Edited to add: the 'he' in question happens to be my son. That would be like saying the law of any country was to bring people to their system of government; but now that we've achieved that system the law is no longer needed and so should be done away with. And since we'll be forgiven when we've done our time, well, who needs the law sending people to prison at our expense?
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3462/rav-shaul-torah-observant
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2323/defensible-torah-observant-paul
theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/2043/rom-14-paul-dismiss-torah
He's a lawyer, so he likes paperwork. Run those off and give them to him. They should help, but if he challenges anything in the threads post what he says in the appropriate thread so we can answer it.
H8451 תּרה / תּורה tôrâh BDB Definition:
1) law, direction, instruction
1a) instruction, direction (human or divine)
1a1) body of prophetic teaching
1a2) instruction in Messianic age
1a3) body of priestly direction or instruction
1a4) body of legal directives
1b) law
1b1) law of the burnt offering
1b2) of special law, codes of law
1c) custom, manner
1d) the Deuteronomic or Mosaic Law
Part of Speech: noun feminine
Note the number of times the definition says direction, instruction, or teaching vs. the number of times it says any kind of law. The word caries all those connotations. Looking at that definition I'd say it meant some very serious instructions. To arbitrarily translate it as law does give it the weight it deserves, however to only understand it in English and not the Hebrew definition takes away most of the true meaning. These are God's instructions to us, and no place in the Bible does God (as either Adonai or Yeshua) do away with His . And no Shaliach (a legal representative, one with power of attorney, a spokesman, an apostle) would ever controvert what God did not Himself do. They had the power to make Halacha based on , but not to change - not one jot or tittle.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jun 3, 2016 20:34:34 GMT -8
chris, here is another thing about the "law" and how he sees it. Christians tend to be dogmatic; to wit, legalists. It is their Greek upbringing and Roman indoctrination. One of the reasons they hate the law so much is they see it as a list of things they HAVE TO DO!. Jews and Messainics see it as instructions, but there are always exceptions. For instance if you are on an island and all you have to eat are pigs and shellfish, then that is what you eat. The higher mitzvoth is to sustain life and health. And there is no sin in that. If your ox falls in the ditch on Shabbat, you get him out. I live in farming and ranching country. Those are 24/7/365 day jobs. A farmer coming into the Messianic faith is encouraged to do everything possible on days other than Shabbat. But if a cow is having trouble calving on Shabbat, you help her. It is cruel to let her suffer and is also a substantial economic blow to loose a cow and calf like that. And how did he know she was having problems? He checked ... ON SHABBAT!
As a lawyer he should understand that even the law of the land allows for exceptions. There is a legal doctrine that says in an emergency if you act as a rational person would to avoid harming yourself or others you are not breaking the law. SO if you drive up on an empty sidewalk because kids are drag racing and coming at you at high speed, taking up the whole road, you cannot be held guilty of breaking any laws. Any sane person would have acted as you did. But that is not how the average Christian sees the "Law." They think it is a list of do's and don'ts and it is set in stone so we gotta do it. Legalists. But they think it's ok because only them Jews and the crazy Messianics have to do it. They get a free pass; they got grace! Their God died for them so they wouldn't have to do what He said ... riiiiight.
No, we have a set of very serious instructions. There is a hierarchy to these instructions, and even that is not set in stone. We keep these instructions the best we can because they were given to us as a blessing, not a curse. There are exceptions and we deal with those, but always with the utmost respect for the One who gave them, lest we abuse this and bring condemnation upon ourselves. And when we slip up we don't put on sackcloth; but whenever we transgress we definitely do repent. We too have grace- the same grace from the same God- just we don't abuse it as much or as regularly.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 4, 2016 12:51:44 GMT -8
On the same lines already mentioned, you could ask that question about any number of rules and guidelines in place at churches. The point is unity, holiness, growth, and testimony that glorifies G-d. Why do churches have boards and voters meetings that determine the church's expectations, rules of conduct, and goals. Why do they have doctrines, creeds, confessions, testimonials, catechisms, and so on? They know why we need instruction, goals, and expectations because they have put their own in place for centuries. The real issue is why they feel the need to put their own in place when G-d Himself gave His own. How much time have they spent writing and composing what they think and how they think people should believe, pray, repent and confess? They know the answer to the question they are asking. The real question is who knows better, G-d or you? G-d gave us because we need it. The same way they think they need all of the stuff mentioned above. The same way we need need any order, wisdom, guicance, goal or stability. We simply can't depend on the institutions of men, including the church, for any lasting justice or order so G-d He gave us His . When governments collapse, churches go under, and society decays, we still have the guidance and instruction of the eternal G-d. That's how I see it. |
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Post by chrisg on Jun 6, 2016 10:51:47 GMT -8
Elizabeth, that is exactly what I had concluded. I was Mennonite for a long time and they had many rules, interpreting things like 'modesty' for instance. Now I can see that these rules are unnecessary (to a large degree) because God Himself defines what His laws mean, if we will but accept it.
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Post by chrisg on Jun 6, 2016 12:47:45 GMT -8
Right, he has moved on from his original question and is now saying the law only applies of there is a land. The Jews were given the law for when they entered the land of Caanan; if there is no physical land, the laws no longer apply physically (literally), but we only have to apply them spiritually! I know this is not right, but I cannot refute his point.
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Post by jimmie on Jun 6, 2016 13:50:55 GMT -8
So there was no law during the 40 years in the wilderness? Why did so many of them die for disobedience? David didn't have to obey the law while in Ziglag? Daniel didn't have to worry about the law while not in Israel? Jesus' time in Egypt was not regulated by the law?
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Post by alon on Jun 6, 2016 14:53:38 GMT -8
Right, he has moved on from his original question and is now saying the law only applies of there is a land. The Jews were given the law for when they entered the land of Caanan; if there is no physical land, the laws no longer apply physically (literally), but we only have to apply them spiritually! I know this is not right, but I cannot refute his point.
It sounds like he is being coached by a pastor- no lawyer would attempt such a specious claim. It is easily refutable, as jimmie pointed out. For another example, scroll to the bottom of your home page to where it says:
Forum Information & Statistics
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Click on the orange highlighted "Recent Threads" (in the example, not in the actual box) and then scroll down and select "Genesis 38- Tamar." That will give an excellent example of a case where the same law was demonstrably in effect long before Sinai, long before there were any Jews, and long before the land was occupied. We can (and will) continue to answer his questions. However at some point he has to admit he is looking for excuses, not reasons. If he does not want to be obedient, he won't. But especially as he is your son, I pray you can reach him.
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Jun 7, 2016 9:03:48 GMT -8
No, he's not being coached by anyone. He has a habit of trying to play 'devil's advocate' and looks for loopholes and issues (that's his legal trained mind), finding fault with all arguments, before coming to a conclusion. I can post the entire conversation we had if you like, then you can see for yourself.
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Post by alon on Jun 7, 2016 12:06:36 GMT -8
No, he's not being coached by anyone. He has a habit of trying to play 'devil's advocate' and looks for loopholes and issues (that's his legal trained mind), finding fault with all arguments, before coming to a conclusion. I can post the entire conversation we had if you like, then you can see for yourself.
Highlights are fine ... the stuff you can't answer. I'm running on no sleep last night and not much the night before, so not sure if I'd be much help right now anyhow.
Dan C
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Post by maranguape on Aug 23, 2018 11:14:10 GMT -8
I was asked today what is the purpose of the Law? It was not asking what is the point of keeping it, but what actually is the Law for to the Christian believer? I actually can't answer the question, other than 'the Law is our schoolmaster to lead us to God' but that doesn't help as the person who asked is looking for reasons why we shouldn't obey it The purpose of the Law is to ensure salvation as long as we obey it. For instance, Jesus himself in his parable of the Richman & Lazarus made it quite clear that to achieve salvation one must listen to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) |
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