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Post by Questor on May 15, 2016 20:15:50 GMT -8
Once the wall of partition is brought down, it creates a big problem...the Gentiles and Jews are supposed to be one people in Yeshua, but most Gentiles are still not even coming one step towards following the commandments.
Looking at Ephesian 2, I tore apart the verse to look at it more clearly, and came up with some questions that puzzle me.
Ephesians 2:10-16 (CJB) 10 For we are of God’s making, created in union with the Messiah Yeshua for a life of good actions already prepared by God for us to do.
Good actions are Mitsvot, yes? The doing/following of the Mosaic covenant? Not for salvation, but because G-d intended that we do good actions?
11 Therefore, remember your former state: you Gentiles by birth — called the Uncircumcised by those who, merely because of an operation on their flesh, are called the Circumcised — 12a at that time had no Messiah. They, the circumcised, have one now, as do the Gentiles. And things are changed?
12bYou were estranged from the national life of Isra’el. And now are brought near at least in some spiritual way?12cYou were foreigners to the covenants embodying God’s promise. And now are part of the covenant??? Or just no longer strangers??? 12dYou were in this world without hope and without God.You Gentiles now have G-d and hope...and the covenant???
13 But now, you who were once far off have been brought near through the shedding of the Messiah’s blood. We are brought near only through Yeshua’s righteousness, and the shedding of his blood in a re-inactment of the original Passover, keeping us Gentiles from spiritual death?
14 For he himself is our shalom — he has made us both one and has broken down the m’chitzah which divided us. Yeshua is the means of joining Jew to Gentile in one family...we are now one because of him, and there is no barrier between us and the Jews?
15a by destroying in his own body the enmity occasioned by the , with its commands set forth in the form of ordinances. Creating friendship and fellowship between Jew and Gentile because we Mashiachim that follow Yeshua, and worship only YHVH are no longer considered unclean by an automatic supposition of being Idol worshippers as the pagans are?
15aHe (Yeshua) did this in order to create in union with himself from the two groups (Jews and Gentiles) a single new humanity and thus make shalom, 16 and in order to reconcile to God both in a single body by being executed on a stake as a criminal and thus in himself killing that enmity.
Except so few of us seem to be friends. Sigh. I do not feel particularly separated, except by distance, custom and tradition, which are bad enough, but is there still a m’chitzah among the Mashiachim?
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Post by alon on May 16, 2016 10:33:40 GMT -8
I don't have my references here, nor much time to research, so I am going to have to reply on the fly. If you accepted Yeshua, you are in covenant with Him. That was covered in another recent post. While attending a Pesach seder may make you feel closer to HaShem- mostly because all the ordinances and mitzvoth are to help us, not Elohim- a simple ritual supper does not save you, nor maintain your salvation. If you know to do it and can do it, it is sin not to. But you are not going to hell just because you missed a seder. When it talks about Gentiles in those verses, it speaks of those born Gentile but who have accepted Yeshua. I can't see it speaking of all Gentiles, as the unsaved would never be allowed into the Temple. And I doubt the uncircumcised will be either, even if Yirei haShem. As to being strangers, well ... you and me are stranger than most; but I think we'll be OK. Dan C
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Post by alon on May 21, 2016 9:43:10 GMT -8
Ephesians 2:11-16 New American Standard Bible (NASB) 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” which is done in the body by human hands—12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded [alienated] from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near [Lit became; or were made] by [in] the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall [Lit the dividing wall of the barrier], 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make [create] the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.Dr. Chester did a d’rash on this yesterday which went much more into detail, but I wasn’t taking notes. However I did glean some insight to add to my notes. Let’s break this down: 11 Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” by those who call themselves “the circumcision” which is done in the body by human hands—Circumcision as used here is a metaphor for the covenant. Those who were formerly circumcised are obviously Jews and proselytes to Judaism. Another way to say this would be the observant. These were the saved ones, while Gentiles were the unsaved. Note those being addressed here are “former Gentiles,” meaning they are now saved and made heirs to the covenant, as we read: 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded [alienated] from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.So if we continue the metaphor, these are now not only saved, but they are the circumcised. Note that “ remember” is italicised in this verse. One of the things I like about the NASB translation is that, for a mainstream Christian effort it is the most accurate and honest translation out there. The italics show that this word is not found in the source documents, but was added by the translators for clarity. It helps convey what they thought is the meaning of this passage. Here it doesn’t change the meaning much to omit the term; however later we’ll see some places it does effect the meaning a lot. However as it reads here Rav Shaul is saying we who accept Yeshua as Elohim are made part of Yisro’el, heirs to the covenantal promises. This is right in line with his other teachings: we are heirs by adption into God’s people. Note we join the Jews, they do not join the Gentiles! (see Rom 11). Let’s look at the word “excluded.” Reading it this way it sounds as if the Gentiles could never have been saved before the Cross. This is not a correct interpretation. According to Strong’s (526) the word translated “ excluded” can also mean just a non-participant. That puts this verse in a whole new light! Gentiles were never “excluded.” The TNK gives us many Gentiles who were saved. If the Hebrew nation was forged in Egypt, all who came before were Gentiles. What about Avraham, Yitzak, and Ya’akov? And their wives an servants? Noach, Rachav, and Iyov? All the way back to Hevel and Adam himself! So it is preposterous to say, as Christians so often do, that Gentiles were barred from the covenant in the Old Testament. “ That was the time of the Jews, and we are now in the time of the Gentiles.” This theology is little more than an excuse for anti-Semitism. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near [Lit became; or were made] by [in] the blood of Christ.“ Far off,” not barred from. But let’s look at another word here; one that may seem insignificant- “ by” vs. “ in.” “ By” infers something done to us, whereas " in" implies we are a participant. By just means “Zap! You’re saved!.” “ In” means you come into, just like steping into a mikvah. I grew up thinking of “being washed in the blood” as more like it was poured over me. Now I think of it more like tevilah, where I willingly go into the mikvah for the purpose of being made ritually pure. Do you see the difference? True, salvation is an act of grace on God’s part. I can do nothing to acquire it. However Elohim never acts against our free will. I do have to accept the gift and join myself to His people, desireing to obey the covenant even as He makes me an heir to its promises. I must be willingly "washed in the blood." 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall [Lit the dividing wall of the barrier],This one is really problematic. First note that “ groups into” is italicised. Read without this insertion, this scripture has a whole new meaning. “ Made both one” can mean man married to God, just as Adam and Chava were made one. But “ both groups” says that Jew and Gentile are one. That’s like saying the saved and unsaved are one! No, in the spiritual sense (which is what we are talking about here) they are not. If we remove the phrase “ both groups” and use the alternate translation in the footnotes “ the dividing wall of the barrier” we get a passage that speaks of a barrier being removed between us and God. Add to this substituting “broke down” with the Strong’s (3089) definition of “to loosen, dissolve, loose, melt, put off” and this verse clearly is talking about our relationship with Elohim and not a physical wall, that “Middle Wall of Partition” separating the inner and outer courts of the Temple. We’ll address this later. The division has always been between God and man; obedience and rebellion; observance and going after idols. Note too that extra-biblical regulations and religious dogma can separate us from God’s grace and participation in the covenant. This is addressed in the next verse: 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make [create] the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,Again we have here a key phrase which is italicised, “ which is.” Removing that changes the entire meaning. “ Which is” says it is the Law itself that is the enmity. How can the Law be enmity? Yet Christians read this as such. No, it is our own opposition to the Law which causes enmity! Look at the previous phrase “ in his flesh.” The flesh always represents our own lusts and desires, which are so often in opposition to God’s . In Hebrew this would read “ the evil inclination,” a much more accurate depiction of the meaning.
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Post by alon on Dec 24, 2016 19:18:29 GMT -8
This is where we get the “One New Man” doctrine which is so favored by many in Hebrew Roots. First off, the “ one new man” spoken of here is a observant proselyte to the sect of the Nots’rim (1st cen. Messianic). He is not a pagan who acknowledges Yeshua but keeps to his pagan ways. Again I think this is marriage language- we are married to Yeshua and become one new man in Him. It does not mean Jew and Gentile are one and the same in their relationship to Elohim. One will be with Him forever, the other will not. Now if you want to say a Gentile who accepts Yeshua is one and the same as a Jew who believes, in effect becoming a Jew himself, then yes; see the next verse: 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.The body of believers is one, being reconciled to and no longer at enmity to the Laws of God. As Dr. Chester said, “The Cross had only one purpose, and that was to make a way for everyone, past, present and future to be saved.” He went on to explain that God did not come saying “Oh, I made a mistake and now I need to correct it by dying and nailing the to the Cross.” No, the Cross was the only sacrifice acceptable to God to remove our sins. The penalty for the sins of believers was nailed to that Cross, not the law itself. But what about that “Middle Wall of Partition?” This refers to the wall separating the inner and outer courts of the Temple. Only the observant could go into the inner court. Those worshiping in the outer court had accepted the God of Yisro’el, but for whatever reason had not become fully observant. This wall did not, as Christianity teaches, separate Jew and Gentile. The only thing baring anyone, Jew of Gentile, from gaining access to that inner court was their decision to not become fully observant. So even if we interpret our passage as the Christians do, what would be the point in tearing down a wall that only our choices necessitate in the first place? Also we should note that the earthly Temple is a reflection of the heavens: Hebrews 9:19-23 (NASB) For when every commandment had been spoken by Moses to all the people according to the Law, he took the blood of the calves and the goats, with water and scarlet wool and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book itself and all the people, saying, “This is the blood of the covenant which God commanded you.” And in the same way he sprinkled both the tabernacle and all the vessels of the ministry with the blood. And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness. Therefore it was necessary for the copies of the things in the heavens to be cleansed with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.So what can we infer from this? Well, could it be that this division will exist in the heavens as well as in the Olam Haba? That Christians, because of their unwillingness to take on the whole of will not be as close to Elohim as those who are observant. This could be a part of our reward, spoken of by Yeshua: Revelation 22:12 Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
But how can we say for certain this wall has not been torn down? Easy. There will be a Temple in the Olam Haba, as prophesied by Yehezkel in Ezekiel 40-42. This Temple has an inner and outer court, along with that pesky wall dividing the two. Would Elohim tear it down now just to rebuild it? I mean, why make Jew and Gentile one just to separate them again later? No, we separate ourselves by our disobedience. We distance ourselves from Elohim by our lack of commitment to . And that is the point of Ephesians 2:11-16
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 24, 2016 22:37:23 GMT -8
The obvious question here is "What about Jews today who do not accept Yeshua?" A corollary would be "Is there a change here from the NK?" The answer is no, in keeping with even a Jew who is disobedient will not be saved, then or now: Deuteronomy 8:20 (ESV) Like the nations that the Lord makes to perish before you, so shall you perish, because you would not obey the voice of the Lord your God.Yisro’el is here placed under the same proscription as the goyim if they should commit apostasy, denying their God. Now let’s see how one Christian commentator looks at this passage; one I frequently use, Merrill F Unger: Ephesians 2:11-18 The Body Made One by Christs Blood
11-12 What we were in ourselves The race in its twofold divisionJew and Gentile, comes into view. The sacrifice of Christ goes beyond meeting the individual’s need and meets that of society, removing all obstacles to the unity of the new body in doing away with all distinctions of race, class, or even sex (cf Gal 3:28) The moral and spiritual plight of the individual seen in 2:1-3 is now applied to the corporate, and we are seen to have been dispensationally and collectively undone as well, being (1) Gentiles by birth, 11a and belonging to the vast unsaved mass of humanity (Rom 1:18-32); (2) outside of Jewish spiritual privilege throught the Abrahamic covenant sealed by circumcision, 11b; 930 without Christ, without hope, without God; aliens to the covenants and promises made to Israel, 12Galatians 3:28 (NASB) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.Romans 1:18-32 (NASB) Unbelief and Its Consequences 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures. 24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen. 26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which isunnatural, 27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error. 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips, 30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, 31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful; 32 and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.13-18 What we are in Christ In strong contrast to what we were (1) We are now united to Him instead f being separated from Him. (2) We have been brought near by Christ's finished work instead of remaining far off as unsaved Gentiles.He has broken down the 'dividing wall of hostility,' referring to the outer court of the Temple for Gentiles who were excluded from the inner court which Jews alone might enter. (3) We are given full acceptance to God through Christ apart from legal ordinances, 15a. (4) We have been made a new community of His people, the church, Christ's body, here called 'one new man'15b (cf Ephesians 1:22-23, 1 Cor 12:12-13, Col 3:10-11, Heb 12:23). (5) He has abolished the old enmity between Jew and Gentile by being 'our peace,' 14-15a, and preaching peace, 17, reconciling both to God. 960 Both have been given access to God by one Spirit (cf 4:4-6. Ephesians 1:22-23 (NASB) And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.
1 Corinthians 12:12-13 (NASB) For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
Colossians 3:10-11 (NASB) and have put on the new self who is being renewed to a true knowledge according to the image of the One who created him— a renewal in which there is no distinction between Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave and freeman, but Christ is all, and in all.
Hebrews 12:23 (NASB) to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
I have included his scriptural references for ease of study. Later I'll begin to break down what he is saying and prove or disprove its veracity. Meanwhile, feel free to make comments and observations yourselves. Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2016 16:46:55 GMT -8
The race in its twofold divisionJew and Gentile, comes into view. The sacrifice of Christ goes beyond meeting the individual’s need and meets that of society, removing all obstacles to the unity of the new body in doing away with all distinctions of race, class, or even sex (cf Gal 3:28)
Galatians 3:28 (NASB) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
The reference given is a scripture oft quoted in Christianity as some vague, mystical, meaningful ideal whereby everyone is in every way equal. However they are hard pressed to explain how all of the things mentioned still exist, being forced to dismis this fact by saying we are all the same in Christ's eyes. Maybe so, but read that verse in context:
Galatians 3:23-29 (ESV) 23 Now before faith came, we were held captive under the law, imprisoned until the coming faith would be revealed. 24 So then, the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith. 25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a guardian, 26 for in Christ Jesus you are all sons of God, through faith. 27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise.
We see here this is speaking of salvation. Any man (or woman) can come to salvation by placing their faith (trust) in God. And it doesn't matter what your station in life, you are on equal footing with respect to gaining salvation. The problem arises in Christian doctrine when they interpret this as "the church" being one with Christ. It has always been that Yeshua's people were one. In order to be saved in the TNK, you joined yourself to Yisro'el and worshiped the God of the Jews. And note in vs. 29 that "if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to promise." You, my Christian friend, are joined to Yisro'el; and your 'church' is subsumed under the larger banner of Judaism! Societies needs are met the same today as in the time of Moshe. There is nothing new here.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2016 17:11:50 GMT -8
The moral and spiritual plight of the individual seen in 2:1-3 is now applied to the corporate, and we are seen to have been dispensationally and collectively undone as well,
Here the author attempts to say that Gentiles were excluded from salvation until Yeshua came. He uses the term "dispensationaly" which is anti-Semitic mainstream theology. It says that God revealed Himself to man in a series of dispensational periods, each with its' own set of rules. These periods in biblical history were tests, all of which mankind failed until the church age. And the rules of previous dispensational periods are not binding on later periods. So the Jews got all those onerous commandments and they couldn't keep them, so they failed the test. Then Christ came and died so all we'd have to do is say we believe and we're in! Lucky us, we got an easy test. And since the Jews rejected Christ (they say- not actually true), but there won't be many Jews in heaven. And the ones that will be there have renounced their Jewishness and joined themselves to the church.
The truth, as I've already shown, is that Gentiles were never excluded. From the first, many Egyptians left with the Hebrews and joined themselves to the young Hebrew nation, worshiping their God. They were there at Sinai and accepted the covenant. Rachav put her trust in El Elohe Yisro'el, helping the spies. She was spared for her efforts, and joined to Yisro'el she was to be in the lineage of Yeshua. And there were many, many others. It is our choices that exclude us from salvation, not our heritage or genetics or our third cousins aunt or ... .
Also, Elohim never said "This is a test." Nor did He ever say any part of His instructions were nullified by some supposed dispensational period. He did say "For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished." (Matthew 5:18 ESV). Sounds to me like we are still under the "dispensation" of "THE LAW!"
Dan C
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