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Post by alon on Jul 14, 2014 22:06:37 GMT -8
[Moderator note: thread moved to proper category]
Shivah Asar B’Tammuz- the fast of the 17th of Tammuz, is the start of a three-week mourning period for the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temples. This is not a Biblically mandated fast, but is part of Jewish tradition. The Jerusalem Talmud says this is the date the Babylonians breached the walls of Jerusalem prior to destroying the first Temple. In 69 CE the walls of Jerusalem were breached by the Romans, and three weeks later, they destroyed the second Holy Temple on the 9th of Av.
In practice, healthy adults abstain from eating or drinking between dawn and nightfall. Fast days are days when God is considered more accessible, waiting for our repentance. The sages say “Every generation for which the Temple is not rebuilt, it is as though the Temple was destroyed for that generation.”
While the reason is, at least in part to help “fix” the problems that led to the destruction of the Temple so that it can be rebuilt and Messiah can come, we as Messianics know there is only one way to fix this. It will happen in God’s time regardless, but on a personal level seeking and accepting Yeshua HaMoshiac as He is and was is the only “fix”.
Most here probably will not feel led to keep the fast, but I do think that part of our calling is to reach the Jewish people, so if you feel so inclined please at least do a search and try to understand this fast. If you are claiming the promises, then the reasons (and there are a few others) for this fast are part of your history, and those who keep it are part of your family.
Yochanan 14:6 Rebbe, Melech HaMoshiach says to him, I am HaDerech, HaEmes, and HaChayyim. No one comes to HaAv except through me [1Sm 3:7].
John 14: 6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
Dani’el 9:24-25 (OJB) Shivi’im heptads is decreed upon thy people and upon thy Ir Kodesh (Holy City), to restrain the peysha (transgression), and to make an end of chattat (sin), and to make kapporah for avon, and to bring in Tzedek Olamim (Everlasting Righteousness), and to seal up the chazon and navi, and to anoint the Kodesh HaKodashim. Have da’as, therefore, and get seichel, that from the going forth of the decree to restore and to rebuild Yerushalayim unto Moshiach Nagid shall be shivah heptads, and threescore and two heptads; the rechov shall be built again, and the charutz, even in troublous times.
Dan 9:24-25 (CJB) "Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy place. "So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
Shalom,
Dan
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 18:14:34 GMT -8
So Alon, you are saying this law did not come from God but man? If this is the case than why observe it at all?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 16, 2014 20:48:47 GMT -8
So Alon, you are saying this law did not come from God but man? If this is the case than why observe it at all? Moriah Ruth
I don't advocate keeping everything not commanded in  , but at the same time I am against discarding everything Jewish but not given at Sinai either. This seems to me to be almost the same attitude as the catholic (and later mainC) churches did when they erased Judaism from their "New" religion. Only we are better because we're TO. But traditions ... wait, are you prepared to give up July 4th and Thanksgiving? Traditions are not bad just because they aren't in .
Dan C
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Post by alon on Jul 17, 2014 18:13:17 GMT -8
Here's a quote from Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein of the IFCJ:
Consider all the Jews have been through. We are only beginning to experience some of it as friends shun us or even attack us for our beliefs. But no one sent our grandparents to the gas chambers, and no one has tried to land a rocket in our living rooms lately. They have born up under pressures that would have destroyed almost any Christians spirituality. Don't believe me? Look at the percentage of hard headed Germans that stood up to Hitler! How do the Jews keep their faith through over 2000 yrs of persecution?
I'd say it is things like this. A sense of community going all the way back to Avraham. They remember! And they are connected. And when they pray, they pray to "Our Father", while Christians unintentionally blaspheme by praying to "My Father!" They are a rootless people whose community roots go back 3500 yrs.! We are a people who can put down roots but think we're the only ones that count. Don't discredit traditions just because they are Jewish. You may find hidden treasures there- treasures you'll need if the end times truly are upon us.
Dan C
And before anyone asks, the title "My Father" spoken of God is only used by Yeshua in scripture. He has a Heavenly Father, with who He is one and the same. "WE" have, all of us, this rag-tag community of Messianics all, have a Heavenly Father. Community. It's the only way this all works.
"And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, ..." Luk 11:2
Edit: if I'm wrong about that, feel free to point out where it is used by man of God and I'll thankfully go add to my "I Was Wrong" thread.
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Post by Questor on Jul 17, 2014 23:23:47 GMT -8
...A sense of community going all the way back to Avraham. They remember! And they are connected. And when they pray, they pray to "Our Father", while Christians unintentionally blaspheme by praying to "My Father!" They are a rootless people whose community roots go back 3500 yrs.! We are a people who can put down roots but think we're the only ones that count. Don't discredit traditions just because they are Jewish. You may find hidden treasures there- treasures you'll need if the end times truly are upon us.
Dan C
And before anyone asks, the title "My Father" spoken of God is only used by Yeshua in scripture. He has a Heavenly Father, with who He is one and the same. "WE" have, all of us, this rag-tag community of Messianics all, have a Heavenly Father. Community. It's the only way this all works."And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, ..." Luk 11:2 Edit: if I'm wrong about that, feel free to point out where it is used by man of God and I'll thankfully go add to my "I Was Wrong" thread.
Sha'ul said it.
Romans 8:14-17 (CJB)
14 All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to bring you back again into fear; on the contrary, you received the Spirit, who makes us sons and by whose power we cry out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”).
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God;
17 and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with the Messiah — provided we are suffering with him in order also to be glorified with him.
Messianics are disliked, ridiculed, scoffed at, and disassociated from by those Jews and Christians that are despised or hated by the remainder of the world. There is a death sentence built into it that I have long been preparing for, and continue to do so while calling G-d, Abba.
I don't consider what I am doing suffering because I take no account of it, but I do consider myself a son of G-d, YHVH Tzavaot, and a very much younger brother to Yehoshua, my beloved L-rd.
Jew or Christian or Pagan in origin, we are all Yehoshua's brothers who trust in Him, and strive to do what He desired...to Love Abba more than anyone, and others as much as ourselves. Perhaps putting off the old man and putting on the new is a part of the suffering mentioned, and that too we all experience, to become more like Yehoshua haMashiach, a Jew.
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Post by alon on Jul 18, 2014 0:14:14 GMT -8
...A sense of community going all the way back to Avraham. They remember! And they are connected. And when they pray, they pray to "Our Father", while Christians unintentionally blaspheme by praying to "My Father!" They are a rootless people whose community roots go back 3500 yrs.! We are a people who can put down roots but think we're the only ones that count. Don't discredit traditions just because they are Jewish. You may find hidden treasures there- treasures you'll need if the end times truly are upon us.
Dan C
And before anyone asks, the title "My Father" spoken of God is only used by Yeshua in scripture. He has a Heavenly Father, with who He is one and the same. "WE" have, all of us, this rag-tag community of Messianics all, have a Heavenly Father. Community. It's the only way this all works."And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, ..." Luk 11:2 Edit: if I'm wrong about that, feel free to point out where it is used by man of God and I'll thankfully go add to my "I Was Wrong" thread.
Sha'ul said it.
Romans 8:14-17 (CJB)
14 All who are led by God’s Spirit are God’s sons.
15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to bring you back again into fear; on the contrary, you received the Spirit, who makes us sons and by whose power we cry out, “Abba!” (that is, “Dear Father!”).
16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God;
17 and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with the Messiah — provided we are suffering with him in order also to be glorified with him.
Messianics are disliked, ridiculed, scoffed at, and disassociated from by those Jews and Christians that are despised or hated by the remainder of the world. There is a death sentence built into it that I have long been preparing for, and continue to do so while calling G-d, Abba.
I don't consider what I am doing suffering because I take no account of it, but I do consider myself a son of G-d, YHVH Tzavaot, and a very much younger brother to Yehoshua, my beloved L-rd.
Jew or Christian or Pagan in origin, we are all Yehoshua's brothers who trust in Him, and strive to do what He desired...to Love Abba more than anyone, and others as much as ourselves. Perhaps putting off the old man and putting on the new is a part of the suffering mentioned, and that too we all experience, to become more like Yehoshua haMashiach, a Jew.
Even so, the point about community is still valid. We need to be evangelizing everywhere we go, trying to build up or in most cases start a community of TO believers! We do get so beat down and discouraged trying to talk about this. But we need to be out there letting people know. This is a good place to find that sense of community, but really it doesn't come close to actually celebrating with others.
AndprayasYeshuatoldusto- "Our Father," father of our community. 
Dan (had to say that) C
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 18, 2014 9:35:07 GMT -8
I cannot keep up with all your all's quotes and references, and I am not very familiar with this tradition. For what it's worth, in general, I look to Yeshua's prayer that we be one. If the tradition is not inconsistent with God's will, observing it is a way we can work toward the unity that we know is his will.
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Post by jimmie on Jul 18, 2014 10:11:20 GMT -8
Here's a quote from Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein of the IFCJ:[
Edit: if I'm wrong about that, feel free to point out where it is used by man of God and I'll thankfully go add to my "I Was Wrong" thread. (Jer 3:4 KJV) Wilt thou not from this time cry unto me, My father, thou art the guide of my youth? (Jer 3:19 KJV) But I said, How shall I put thee among the children, and give thee a pleasant land, a goodly heritage of the hosts of nations? and I said, Thou shalt call me, My father; and shalt not turn away from me. |
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Post by alon on Jul 18, 2014 20:49:26 GMT -8
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Post by Questor on Jul 20, 2014 16:38:56 GMT -8
I cannot keep up with all your all's quotes and references, and I am not very familiar with this tradition. For what it's worth, in general, I look to Yeshua's prayer that we be one. If the tradition is not inconsistent with God's will, observing it is a way we can work toward the unity that we know is his will.
The fast of the 17th of the Hebrew month of Tammuz, known as Shivah Asar B’Tammuz, is the start of a three-week mourning period for the destruction of Jerusalem and the two Holy Temples.
The fast actually commemorates five tragic events that occurred on this date:
Moses broke the tablets when he saw the Jewish people worshipping the Golden Calf.
During the Babylonian siege of Jerusalem, the Jews were forced to cease offering the daily sacrifices due to the lack of sheep.
Apostomos burned the holy .1
An idol was placed in the Holy Temple.2
The walls of Jerusalem were breached by the Romans, in 69 CE, after a lengthy siege. (Three weeks later, after the Jews put up a valiant struggle, the Romans destroyed the second Holy Temple on the 9th of Av.)
The Jerusalem Talmud maintains that this is also the date when the Babylonians breached the walls of Jerusalem on their way to destroying the first Temple.
I do not keep any fasts except when under specific order of the Ruach, due to medications I am on that must be taken with food and water, but I value the offering of a sacrifice of some usual comfort for a day to honor the past, and to prepare for the three week review of your sins of the year, the relationships broken, all of which should be amended or reconciled to the best of your ability, that your soul may be spotless on the day of atonement. The fact of having receiving, and continuing to receive atonement for my sins from Yehoshua's keeps me from fear for my acceptance by YHVH and Yehoshua...because I am saved in Yehoshua, and indwelt in part by the Ruach haKodesh. Yet any day spent in examination of the state of your soul is a good day.
It is not possible, of course, during an age without sacrifices in a Temple for the Jews to be clean under the commandments and ordinances of . Under Yehoshua, I find that I examine myself as I commit every fault, in the effort to remain in repentance, turning away from my bad behavior, and placing my thoughts and actions into as perfect a copy of my Rabbi, Yehoshua ha Mashiach as I can manage. I do not wait for the Day of Atonement for my personal sins, but repent, and be reconciled unto my bretheren on a day by day basis, even as I am sure many Abiding Jews do daily, and even those within the churches of MainC that truly trust in Yehoshua do the same.
The day of atonement was and is a very grave and solemn day, for whatever sin was still unconfessed, no sacrifice can currently be made for those sins, which places Unbelieving Jews in extreme danger of being rejected by YHVH because they do not accept the final sacrifice made for all sin in Yehoshua. For Messianics, and those Law abiding Christians, without the trust in Yehoshua and the Ruach haKodesh that leads to obedience, they too should take the day to mourn for their sins, and their countries sins, and also resolve to be made clean again in the Blood of Yehoshua.
Our very great blessing as Messianics, for those of us that walk in the footsteps of the Messiah, however much we stumble, is that Yehoshua has lent us His righteousness to be as our own, covering all imperfection, so that we do not have to walk in uncertainty of acceptance by YHVH. We have total acceptence in YHVH because of our trust in Yehoshua's sacrifice as a permanent atonement for our sins which is every continuing to being made for us in Yehoshua's death at the stake, and action made only one, but making atonement for all imperfection in YHVH's gift of Grace.
For me, Tisha b'Av should be a day of remembrence of all that we are saved from...our evil inclination, our pride, rebelliousness, and our ever present human default position of putting ourselves and our desires and will for ourselves, above Abba, and His will for us, and those actions and attitudes that YHVH desires us to walk in. |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 5:07:20 GMT -8
Hi Alon,
Are you saying that it is wrong to call God our Father or My Father when praying to Him? Yes, Yeshua called God His Father and He was in the fleshly sense.
Does not God call us child of God? Does He not call us sons and daughters of God? If this is the case than out of respect to Him should we not call Him our Father? He is our Heavenly Father, not our earthly father.
When I pray to God I use Heavenly Father out of respect, not to get what I want or to twist Him into something that He is not.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 27, 2014 14:58:22 GMT -8
Hi Alon, Are you saying that it is wrong to call God our Father or My Father when praying to Him? Yes, Yeshua called God His Father and He was in the fleshly sense. Does not God call us child of God? Does He not call us sons and daughters of God? If this is the case than out of respect to Him should we not call Him our Father? He is our Heavenly Father, not our earthly father. When I pray to God I use Heavenly Father out of respect, not to get what I want or to twist Him into something that He is not. Moriah Ruth  C |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 15:21:16 GMT -8
Thank you Alon.
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- there are 70 faces to 
C
