was Paul disappointed?

[chrisg]

I was reading something today that suggested that the Apostle Paul was disappointed with the decision of the Jerusalem council about not eating meat offered to idols. The site says:

"But then in 1 Cor 8 Paul says:


7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.



Paul's statement here stands in direct conflict with the letter from the Council of Jerusalem. How can this be? Obviously for Paul, the edict from Jerusalem was a compromise born out of a policy of accomodation and does not reflect theological eternal truth!



The same issue pops up in Rom 14 (where conscientious Christians avoid eating meat, because it could have been offered to idols or still have blood in it) 2 One man’s faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.



To Paul, gentile Christians are free to eat food offered to idols as long as their conscience is free."

Is this true? Does Paul contradict the council's ruling? And if not, how can we explain this seeming anomaly?

[chrisg]

Just to add, the site goes on to say:

Jesus appeared to John in Revelation (the last book written in the NT) and condemned eating food sacrificed to idols thirty years after Paul was beheaded!!

Rev 2:14 But I have a few things against thee, because thou hast there them that hold the doctrine of Balaam, who taught Balac to cast a stumblingblock before the children of Israel, to eat things sacrificed unto idols, and to commit fornication.

Rev 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

Now I am confused 

[Elizabeth]

I am unsure and uninformed on this topic so don't take what I say for more than it's worth. The instance that came to my mind when I read the verse you sited about one man's faith allows him to eat everything is David and the showbread. I think we should be cuing into the faith aspect at this point, but as I said, I am uninformed and need to consider it more thoroughly.

Here is a personal moment that comes to my mind and seems related at this point. I think it's an example of the kind of balance in faith and lack of it Paul may be referring to.

I was walking my dog one early morning, and found a $20 bill literally blowing around. There was no one around. No one to try to give it back to. On top of it, I had just gotten rid of several items I felt I should never have had in an attempt to do what G-d says. Anyway, it was a huge relief to be rid of these things, then a $20 bill literally blows up right next to me that I now have the burden to deal with. I almost just didn't pick it up. Yet, that seemed worse then not taking care of it, so I picked it up thinking I would pray about it and give it to whoever G-d showed me needed it. I worried over that $20 all day, trying to figure out what G-d wanted me to do with it.

It turned out to be a terribly chaotic day. My husband and I were having a lot of difficulties at that time , specifically over religion. I was just under a lot of pressure that day, and I was hanging by a thread. Then, there was that stinking $20 bill hanging over my head.

To make a long story short, I get migraines from stress and it felt like I was out of options just to stay above water that day. I didn't know how I was going to feed the kids dinner because I was getting sick. I remembered that $20. It sounds really silly, but in that moment I just knew G-d had given it to me. I just knew He saw the day I was heading for and had given me something I needed to help me to be able to get through it. That one moment of assistance made all the difference in that day. I bought dinner with that $20, and was able to rest instead of cook and clean the kitchen. It seems trite, but it truly made a huge difference in the course of my day.

It was also a timely lesson for me. I had this sense of self-accomplishment from ridding my house of items that represented my "previous" faithlessness.  That day, I realized how faithless my act of trying to be faithful with that $20 bill had truly been. I kind of saw the balance between doing what G-d  says, but not finding the confidence in the doing. I worried over what to do with what G-d gives to the extent I forgot He is G-d and knows what He's doing. It's a fine line between faith in G-d and self-assurance sometimes.

G-d is bigger than that $20. G-d is bigger than the food we eat.  We can limit G-d in our hearts and minds in our own attempts to do what we think He needs sometimes.

I think this may be the idea Paul is getting at. Hopefully, I communicated the connection I am trying to make. As I said though, I don't know much on this topic. This is just where your comments took me, and it's fun to chat about it.

[alon]

May 6, 2016 12:22:43 GMT -8 chrisg said:

I miss the days when all we had to worry about was the TV evangelists spreading their brand of stupidity all over the airwaves. Now we have legions of wannabe apostles and prophets behind their keyboards, and they have large audiences to spread their poison to. Not everyone is like you chris- they do not discuss things with others who at least try and get to the truth, as you are doing here. They may discuss with others like themselves- people weak in their knowledge but puffed up with what knowledge they do posses. We may not know it all here, and to some it is more comforting to follow people like your scribe there who will sell them assurance at the cost of the truth.

Here is what I see. First off, scripture cannot contradict itself. So when you have a direct revelation of God to John on the one hand, and someone tells you Paul disagrees with Him, that person is a liar. He may be delusional enough to believe what he is saying, but he is a liar. And strangely enough, Rav Sha’ul talks about this person in the text referenced, as we’ll see. But first there is another scripture we should be mindful of when reading the works of Rav Sha’ul:

2 Peter 3:15-16 (ESV) And count the patience of our Lord as salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, as he does in all his letters when he speaks in them of these matters. There are some things in them that are hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other Scriptures.

We should avoid doing this, as we should avoid others who do it as well. Rav Sha’ul may be difficult, but he was not apostate, and his writings will not make you so as long as you remember he is in agreement with all other scriptures. But then why does it sound so much like he is in disagreement?

Here is where I wish I didn’t have to redact the Galatians teachings so much. I know many cannot handle this, but the reality we must face is what you hold in your hands when in church they have everyone raise up their Bibles and repeat “This is the infallible Word of God” is not. The originals were, but what we have is a translation into English by men who were raised and later trained to think in a specific way, believing in certain doctrines. This affected their work. Moreover they were working form a Greek translation of a Hebrew text; and of which no “originals” even in the Greek still exist. They are copies of copies of copies of … ; and all by hand. And in the New Testament Greek there were no safeguards as far as accuracy of at least the earlier copies. This is why we have over 5700 source documents, almost none of which agree for the New Testament.

Now this DOES NOT mean the truth is not in our NT. Every time I say this I get bombarded by things like “Well I guess I should throw out my New Testament then!” Like that will change the truth. No, you shouldn’t. But we all have to get down and dig out the truth that is STILL THERE! It is God’s Word folks! Do you think He couldn’t protect it? That men can undo what God did? No. It just means our comfort zone just shrank a bit is all. Now we have to work to see what is meant. Looking at the rest of scripture for clues- as you did chris, looking at Revelation and getting uncomfortable with what you were being told.

Looking at this in context (always a good starting place) we see this passage primarily deals with knowledge:

1 Corinthians 8:1 (ESV) Now concerning food offered to idols: we know that “all of us possess knowledge.” This “knowledge” puffs up, but love builds up.

Note that “knowledge puffs up”: this is what has happened to your would be sage. He thinks he has some new “truth” which no one else has. It never occurred to him that most don’t because it is false; but being the idol in his own mind he can’t see that.

That “love builds up” gives us the principle by which we should operate. Love wants the truth, and gives God the glory for that because a.) it is His truth to begin with, and b.) without God Who responds to our love in kind we have no knowledge (at least not spiritual knowledge). Verses 2-3 confirm this:

1 Corinthians 8:2-3 (ESV) If anyone imagines that he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know. But if anyone loves God, he is known by God.

This next seems to contradict itself:

1 Corinthians 8:4-6 (ESV) Therefore, as to the eating of food offered to idols, we know that “an idol has no real existence,” and that “there is no God but one.” For although there may be so-called gods in heaven or on earth—as indeed there are many “gods” and many “lords”— yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.

We must remember much of the confusion probably comes from translational errors. However read in context it appears to be talking about the superiority of God over idols and gods. We who are longer in the faith and therefore more knowledgeable understand this. But others new in the faith do not:

1 Corinthians 8:7 (ESV) However, not all possess this knowledge. But some, through former association with idols, eat food as really offered to an idol, and their conscience, being weak, is defiled.

This of course refers to the new Gentile proselytes who are accustomed to offering their food before idols or praying pagan prayers over it.

1 Corinthians 8:8-10 (ESV) Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do. But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?

The word “right” (some translations “liberty”) here probably throws many:

G1849 ἐξουσία exousia ex-oo-see'-ah From G1832 (in the sense of ability); privilege, that is, (subjectively) force, capacity, competency, freedom, or (objectively) mastery (concretely magistrate, superhuman, potentate, token of control), delegated influence: - authority, jurisdiction, liberty, power, right, strength.

The Vines definition of exousia is “This right which you assert.” It is more in line with the full Strong’s definition which emphasizes more something which we take hold of or do ourselves; or our power over others. And that fits with what is said here. And there is no way Rav Sha’ul is saying it is ok to eat in a pagan Temple!

1 Corinthians 10:14 (ESV) Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry.

And next we are told how this knowledge looks in practice:

1 Corinthians 8:9-10 (ESV) But take care that this right of yours does not somehow become a stumbling block to the weak. For if anyone sees you who have knowledge eating [reclining at table] in an idol's temple, will he not be encouraged, if his conscience is weak, to eat food offered to idols?

So if he sees you there in a pagan temple, even just reclining at the table, he will be encouraged to return the comfort of what he has known up to now: that of sacrificing or blessing his food at the alter to pagan gods. Therefore we, in love to new converts as well as loving obedience to God should most decidedly NOT eat in pagan temples. We should even be careful about eating at many restaurants. I love Thai food. But in many (most of the better ones) you will find a Buddah or similar statue with a small bowl in front of it. In this bowl is placed every morning a small amount of rice which was given to the idol and prayers offered over it. This represents all the food served there that day. So guess what? I do not eat there any more.

Was it a sin for me to eat there before I knew this? Not according to verse 8: “Food will not commend us to God. We are no worse off if we do not eat, and no better off if we do.” Remember we are talking about knowledge here, so the food itself is not the problem. And our God is greater than all their gods (vss. 4-6). SO where there was no knowledge there was no sin; which fits with my understanding of biblical principles. But now I have knowledge, the sin would be my rebellion and subsequent disobedience if I knowingly ate of things sacrificed to idols.

So, how was that for a long winded Pauline type of reply?

Actually, I hope I was a little more clear than Paul. But clarity aside, I relent before his knowledge. Rav Sha’ul was a very educated and brilliant man. But he did have a difficult time making things clear to us masses. I hope this helps.

Dan c

resources: Rav S, Strong’s, Vines, Stern, my father and others

[jimmie]

May 6, 2016 12:22:43 GMT -8 chrisg said:

"But then in 1 Cor 8 Paul says:


7 But not everyone knows this. Some people are still so accustomed to idols that when they eat such food they think of it as having been sacrificed to an idol, and since their conscience is weak, it is defiled. 8 But food does not bring us near to God; we are no worse if we do not eat, and no better if we do.

If one's conscience (ability to know right from wrong and act according)is weak it is defiled. Our job is to strengthen those with a week conscience by teaching them what is right and wrong according to scripture.