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Post by chrisg on Apr 23, 2016 1:21:01 GMT -8
This is what I think about the olive tree at the moment. Please tell me if/where I have gone wrong.
The root of the tree is what I call 'Israel-by-faith' - that is, it is all 'true Israelites' who are of Israel by faith in the promises of God (Old testament). From that root a whole tree grew. Abraham received the sign of the covenant which was circumcision. The tree that grew from the 'root' therefore had branches that were both believers and unbelievers - all those in fat who were 'Israel-by-circumcision'. The branches that never developed faith were cut off and other branches (from the wild olive tree - ie Gentiles) were grafted in when they had faith. The rest of the wild olive tree was left growing over the wall (ie away from God); only those who came to faith were grafted in. This means we are one tree - you can't tell the difference between a grafted branch and a natural branch any more - but the root is still Abraham and his faith
Is that about right? Or have I completely missed the mark?
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2016 15:07:51 GMT -8
This is what I think about the olive tree at the moment. Please tell me if/where I have gone wrong. The root of the tree is what I call 'Israel-by-faith' - that is, it is all 'true Israelites' who are of Israel by faith in the promises of God (Old testament). From that root a whole tree grew. Abraham received the sign of the covenant which was circumcision. The tree that grew from the 'root' therefore had branches that were both believers and unbelievers - all those in fat who were 'Israel-by-circumcision'. The branches that never developed faith were cut off and other branches (from the wild olive tree - ie Gentiles) were grafted in when they had faith. The rest of the wild olive tree was left growing over the wall (ie away from God); only those who came to faith were grafted in. This means we are one tree - you can't tell the difference between a grafted branch and a natural branch any more - but the root is still Abraham and his faith Is that about right? Or have I completely missed the mark?
Except for not being able to tell the difference in a grafted branch and a natural branch, yes, that sounds about right. Israel is a cultivated olive tree in the midst of a forest of wild olives trees. When we accept Yeshua, we are grafted onto the cultivated tree. And as long as we walk and grow with Him we remain there. However grafted branches do carry distinct differences. I just got back from Spokane where I attended the seder with Synagogue Chavurat HaMashiach. While in my hotel, I met a Jewish man; I saw he had the traditional all white tzitzyot, and he saw mine were hand tied and had the telltale blue shamash string. I said hello, and he refused to acknowledge me. I don't get offended by that; I kind of expect it. But he and I both knew I was a wild branch while he was much more a cultivated branch- the only point of disagreement was which of us was attached to the cultivated tree! But we knew ...
Dan C
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Post by chrisg on Apr 24, 2016 7:26:11 GMT -8
You would need to explain the significance of the tzitzyot to me with the blue thread thing?
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Post by alon on Apr 24, 2016 13:39:07 GMT -8
Numbers 15:38-39 (ESV) “Speak to the people of Israel, and tell them to make tassels on the corners of their garments throughout their generations, and to put a cord of blue on the tassel of each corner. And it shall be a tassel for you to look at and remember all the commandments of the Lord, to do them, not to follow [Hebrew to spy out] after your own heart and your own eyes, which you are inclined to sleeper after.
The word translated as “blue” is “techelet.”
H8504 תּכלת tekêleth tek-ay'-leth Probably for H7827; the cerulean mussel, that is, the color (violet) obtained therefrom or stuff dyed therewith: - blue.
This was the same color as was used to dye curtains in the Mishkan and worn on the cohen hagadol’s headdress. Wearing this color meant you were tied to the priesthood which represented the God of Yisro’el. This was as I recall a custom in the mid/near east, as was tying knots in the tzitzitzyoth. The impression of a rulers knot on a clay tablet served much the same purpose as a signet ring impression on a wax seal in later times.
I doubt Strong’s is correct in the source of the dye, since the snail (mollusk) is an unclean animal. Also the amount you get from an extremely tedious process of dissection is miniscule; so much so it could never have provided enough for the Tabernacle’s needs. It is also rare, and not readily available to a people wandering in the wilderness. Most (almost all) of the Rabbis agree with this, as they set halacha, and they say just white strings today because the source of techelet dye is unknown.
The tzitzyoth on modern tallitoth are professionally tied. You’ll get white unless you order the so called techelet. You can also order the techelet strings and tie your own. I used to do this until Rav S did a teaching on it. I did some research as well and now I just use blue and white wool when tying mine. They make a noticeably different tzitzith than the smaller diameter nylon strings which come on tallitoth and the tallit katan worn by Jews and many Meshiachim ( I wear a tallit katan much of the time, especially on feast times). This is a men’s garment worn over the T-shirt (undershirt) but under the shirt. It is an everyday/general use garment worn where a tallit is not practical.
The knots themselves are different for each sect, and either signify YHVH (the number of wraps between each knot corresponding to the letter that number represents; i.e. a 10-5-6-5 wrap signifies YHVH); or in some way signify  . Some of the tzitzith tieing methods are pretty intricate. I tie mine in the 10-5-6-5 pattern, however I am careful not to let the shamash show in the knots, but just on the wraps. So this stands out from even the few Jews who do wear "techelet."
The blue string is called the “Shamash” string, and it is the outer wrap used betweenthe knots. So it is very visible. Since almost no Jewish sects wear blue on their Tzitzyoth, those of us who do stand out as Meshiachim. And they do not like us “playing Jew,” which is how most see us. They also think the only reason we do this is to lure Jews away from Judaism into belief in Yeshua- and this they hate with a passion! So Messianic men are marked when we wear our tzitzyoth showing. Messianic women are marked too by their modest dress. Ignoring us is the kindest thing most Jews or Christians do to us.
Phl 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
Rom 8:17 (KJV) And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Phl 1:29 (KJV) For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;
2Ti 3:12 (KJV) Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution.
The isolation of being ignored and/or ostracized is not so bad for me (I am told it’s a personality disorder, but it’s served me well), however I know it is a problem for many Meshiachim. I can only council those to keep their eye on the prize and their hearts on God’s .
Rav S also had an interesting take on the wearing of tzitzyoth. When a tallit or a tallit katan is properly sized, the tzitzith fall on the thigh of the wearer.
Rev 19:16 (KJV) And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
This is just an observation: a possibility. But it is intriguing.
Dan C
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Post by garrett on Apr 25, 2016 19:10:21 GMT -8
Alon said - "The isolation of being ignored and/or ostracized is not so bad for me (I am told it’s a personality disorder, but it’s served me well), however I know it is a problem for many Meshiachim. I can only council those to keep their eye on the prize and their hearts on God’s ." Don't you just love being snubbed? I've never come across a place in the that says you shouldn't exchange a friendly hello from another well-meaning person....been there too. |
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Post by chrisg on Apr 26, 2016 0:34:31 GMT -8
Alon said - "The isolation of being ignored and/or ostracized is not so bad for me (I am told it’s a personality disorder, but it’s served me well), however I know it is a problem for many Meshiachim. I can only council those to keep their eye on the prize and their hearts on God’s ." Don't you just love being snubbed? I've never come across a place in the that says you shouldn't exchange a friendly hello from another well-meaning person....been there too. It happens all the time - whatever church I have been in, there has always been at least one person who has snubbed me (or my family). It used to be because of our desire to home educate our children, then it was differences in doctrine, more recently it was because of how I dressed (Mennonite with a full-time covering - that got me ostracised and rude comments from elders and deacons!), and now because I choose to keep the law of God in order to honour God. I do not understand what the Christian world is coming to - it wasn't like this years ago, but these days it's all about 'my theology is better than your theology'. Whatever happened to being 'one' in Christ? What happened to being kind one to another? Actually, these days I am poisitively bullied for my beliefs, because I don't 'conform to the norm'. |
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Post by garrett on Apr 26, 2016 9:10:25 GMT -8
Alon said - "The isolation of being ignored and/or ostracized is not so bad for me (I am told it’s a personality disorder, but it’s served me well), however I know it is a problem for many Meshiachim. I can only council those to keep their eye on the prize and their hearts on God’s ." Don't you just love being snubbed? I've never come across a place in the that says you shouldn't exchange a friendly hello from another well-meaning person....been there too. It happens all the time - whatever church I have been in, there has always been at least one person who has snubbed me (or my family). It used to be because of our desire to home educate our children, then it was differences in doctrine, more recently it was because of how I dressed (Mennonite with a full-time covering - that got me ostracised and rude comments from elders and deacons!), and now because I choose to keep the law of God in order to honour God. I do not understand what the Christian world is coming to - it wasn't like this years ago, but these days it's all about 'my theology is better than your theology'. Whatever happened to being 'one' in Christ? What happened to being kind one to another? Actually, these days I am poisitively bullied for my beliefs, because I don't 'conform to the norm'. "What happened to being kind to one another?" - I don't know chris. I'm not sure what people are really gathering together for apart from a chance to all be the same and have some sort of a club, where everyone likes everyone else just as long as they're no different. Sorry you get bullied. I really don't know why so many are unkind, especially in the religious circles. Perhaps this is why so much of christianity has lost its impact - because there are no shining examples of loving people who really stand out. After all, aren't we supposed to imitate the behavior of the Messiah? He was strong and unwavering, but He was loving, merciful, forgiving, patient, sympathetic and tearful at the very things He saw. I often think that I will be glad when the Messiah returns and clears up all of this. Narrow is the gate. I think everyone of us will be so surprised at the outcome of his return. Teaching your children is your business. Your fellow congregants should be kind and supportive. How you dress is in no way sinful or wrong, your fellow congregants should be kind and supportive. So you decided to take notice that Saturday is special. Your fellow congregants could easily be kind and supportive - even if they don't identify with what you're doing, because it's not sinful. Perhaps the wheat is being separated from the chaff more than ever these days, I really don't know. It can be pretty devastating to have what seems like "so many people against you" but please try not to stress yourself out by getting answers to these questions. I tried and it didn't work. All you can do is love G-d, love your family and make the best of your life with what G-d has allowed you to have. He gives a lot even when it seems like there is a drought. And do your best to still be kind to those who are unkind to you. You don't even have to like certain people who are especially cruel, but maybe it's a chance to be that one example of a loving and kind person that you're hoping to see in someone else. The mysteries of peoples' evil behavior has only one source - and it is not from the L-rd. It comes from His adversary and each person's choice to behave as they do. So be encouraged and not too perplexed if possible!  May the L-rd Bless You and Keep You - garrett |
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- there are 70 faces to 
