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Post by chrisg on Apr 22, 2016 10:34:41 GMT -8
Over the past three weeks or so, I have been branded 'Hebrew Roots', 'Hebraic Judaism', Sacred names' along with some others. Their favourite name for me is Hebrew Roots though and I have no real idea of what that means! Please, is there a difference between these groups and if so, what? How am I to know what's right amongst all the labels?
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2016 12:49:55 GMT -8
'Hebraic Judaism' is a redundant term, as both mean the same thing essentially. Sacred Names is a heretical movement which holds that if you do not say the names of Elohim correctly when you are saved, you’re not. The ones I’ve known were so desperate for validation that they also accepted most of the other common heresies out there: ebionism (saying Yeshua was a created being, though they can’t agree when- the virgin birth is popular, but I’ve also heard it was when God created light, water, wind … you get the picture); most if not all were two house (one  for the Jews and one for Gentiles, and it is sin to mix the two/observe the wrong one); they were big on the lost tribes craziness (the tribe of Dan settled in Denmark, and even though I am not Danish, I could be of that tribe because my name is Dan- they got mad when I told them Dan actually settled closer to the west African tribes and were probably all black now); and they were mostly Hebrew Roots masquerading as Messianic Judaism (and yes, there is a HUGE difference). Hebrew Roots is where most of us start looking. The movement is more a mindset within Christianity where adherents want (in varying degrees) to return to or at least understand the way the authors of the New Testament thought. Some advocate observance, where others say just understanding is enough. All (more or less) want to understand the religious observances, culture, idioms, and thought processes of the first century Jews. Most however are very confused, because a.) there is so much pure garbage in HR it is like digging through a dung heap to find one nugget of truth; and b.) they never make the historical connection that Christianity from its inception was not and in fact tried their hardest not to be in ANY way connected to Judaism or the Jews. Most say they want to “worship like the first century church,” never realizing there was no such thing! Marcion, the first church father, wasn't even born until the late first cen CE . The catholic (universal) church idea was just starting to form at that time, and it wasn't done until the mid second and into the third centuries. But those who cling to their past training tend to get stuck in HR, then slowly fold back into the church; though some just go crazy- and I mean that! They glom onto ever bit of foolishness that comes along. Look at Pastor Biltz and the Blood Moons nonsense. Anything goes in HR- so it usually does. I started out in HR myself, finding just enough truth in it to keep me looking ‘till I found MJ. But believe me, even using all the discernment I could muster I still spoke of just enough idiocy to permanently damage my rep with some Christians. They never remember the good things you told them, but they will always remember the bad when they find out; even if it is from you owning up to it when you later find out yourself. And many Christians are hungry for this kind of thing. They love it when you tell them what you are learning in HR. Just don’t advocate they follow any “laws.” And don’t- I mean DO NOT tell them Christmas is bad/pagan/evil/not as good as Channukkah! My best advice is choose what best describes where you are at and call yourself by that title. If you are working towards observance, by the way, you are still Messianic. No one has to take it all on or learn it all at once. But people will try to label you because that label then defines you, and they then can lay charges against you from that group. This is a type of Straw Man attack, because if they can label you they can easily knock you over, so to speak. But don't get stuck in anything until you fall into Messianic Judaism!  Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 22, 2016 16:56:07 GMT -8
Also, labels are difficult for us because they ultimately stem from a worldly idea of "religion". It's funny how the world's attempt to organize things makes it so difficult for us to claim our place according to G-d's own word. That's no accident.
I am just offering an observation because I think ultimately we have to come to terms with not fitting into any category simply because the world wants us to have no place. Messisnic is as close as I have found, but even that has its drawbacks because a lot of strangeness has been associated with that label as well.
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Post by chrisg on Apr 23, 2016 1:13:11 GMT -8
I think at the moment, I would best identify with the title 'Messianic Christian', which is a bit of a confusion (yes, I am still confused, though some things are crystal clear). I did start out looking at the Hebrew roots of Christianity - never knowing there was such a movement out there. Somehow I just 'knew' that Christianity ought to be much more Jewish. After all, Jesus was a Jew, the Apostles were all Jews, the New Testament writers were all Jews bar one - and he (Luke) was probably a proselyte - or so I have read), and the first Christians were all Jews. I began looking for clarification of practices and started with the 'early church fathers' (I suspect they would not have appreciated that title). I decided if they were practising something a particular way, then, seeing as they were close to the Bible times and indeed some of them knew the Apostles (eg Polycarp was friends with John and appears to have been in leadership with the church at Smyrna). I had been Mennonite for about 15 years (not attending a Mennonite congregation as here in the UK there were none, but I associated myself with that form of doctrine). They celebrate Communion twice a year. I couldn't understand that at all. I could understand weekly, or monthly (given what they and I understood at that time), but twice a year?? It would, I  , make more sense if they celebrated it just once a year - at Passover. But having thought all this, I did nothing about any of it till this year. 'Easter' was a month ago now and I was looking at the issue of unleavened bread at communion and then got to wondering why Passover and Easter were a whole month apart. The unleavened bread issue arose because if Jesus and the disciples celebrated the Last Supper as the Passover meal, then it had to be unleavened. I won't go into details, but that issue has been resolved for me now. Anyway, I concluded, out of the blue, that we should indeed be holding 'communion' once a year, at Passover. I would say 'God revealed this to me', but in some places I go, that would brand me a heretic right away - God revealing things to me personally when the rest of christendom thinks something else!! While checking to see if my new 'revelation' was in fact the truth, I stumbled upon the notion that we should be worshipping on Saturday, not Sunday. I had just put a book down that I was reading about these matters (I can't even remember which book it was now) and had walked across to the door to leave the room. My husband said something about celebrating the Lord's death at Passover, I answered him and then, without even thinking, out of my mouth popped the words; 'we're even worshipping on the wrong day; it should be Saturday'. Again, I see that as God revealing it to me, as I had zero connection with anything Hebrew roots or Messianic at that point. I did know about them by now - at least, I knew Messianics existed - but thought they were simply Jews who had become Christians, ie they had accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was only while trying to research on the net that I realised the vast majority of sites that agreed with me had Messianic overtones and that Messianics were not just Jews - Gentiles could be Messianic too. And of course, that led to the whole idea of Gentiles being grafted into - what? The olive tree - but what did that represent? I now realise that the olive tree is the true Israel by faith, going all the way back to Abraham. So my journey seems to have been not like that of others. I saw the idea in the Scripture, looked to see if my idea was right or not, researched more on the net, and discovered - you lot, for one  |
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Post by Questor on Apr 23, 2016 7:06:15 GMT -8
I think at the moment, I would best identify with the title 'Messianic Christian', which is a bit of a confusion (yes, I am still confused, though some things are crystal clear). I did start out looking at the Hebrew roots of Christianity - never knowing there was such a movement out there. Somehow I just 'knew' that Christianity ought to be much more Jewish. After all, Jesus was a Jew, the Apostles were all Jews, the New Testament writers were all Jews bar one - and he (Luke) was probably a proselyte - or so I have read), and the first Christians were all Jews. I began looking for clarification of practices and started with the 'early church fathers' (I suspect they would not have appreciated that title). I decided if they were practising something a particular way, then, seeing as they were close to the Bible times and indeed some of them knew the Apostles (eg Polycarp was friends with John and appears to have been in leadership with the church at Smyrna). I had been Mennonite for about 15 years (not attending a Mennonite congregation as here in the UK there were none, but I associated myself with that form of doctrine). They celebrate Communion twice a year. I couldn't understand that at all. I could understand weekly, or monthly (given what they and I understood at that time), but twice a year?? It would, I , make more sense if they celebrated it just once a year - at Passover. But having thought all this, I did nothing about any of it till this year. 'Easter' was a month ago now and I was looking at the issue of unleavened bread at communion and then got to wondering why Passover and Easter were a whole month apart. The unleavened bread issue arose because if Jesus and the disciples celebrated the Last Supper as the Passover meal, then it had to be unleavened. I won't go into details, but that issue has been resolved for me now. Anyway, I concluded, out of the blue, that we should indeed be holding 'communion' once a year, at Passover. I would say 'God revealed this to me', but in some places I go, that would brand me a heretic right away - God revealing things to me personally when the rest of christendom thinks something else!! While checking to see if my new 'revelation' was in fact the truth, I stumbled upon the notion that we should be worshipping on Saturday, not Sunday. I had just put a book down that I was reading about these matters (I can't even remember which book it was now) and had walked across to the door to leave the room. My husband said something about celebrating the Lord's death at Passover, I answered him and then, without even thinking, out of my mouth popped the words; 'we're even worshipping on the wrong day; it should be Saturday'. Again, I see that as God revealing it to me, as I had zero connection with anything Hebrew roots or Messianic at that point. I did know about them by now - at least, I knew Messianics existed - but thought they were simply Jews who had become Christians, ie they had accepted Jesus as the Messiah. It was only while trying to research on the net that I realised the vast majority of sites that agreed with me had Messianic overtones and that Messianics were not just Jews - Gentiles could be Messianic too. And of course, that led to the whole idea of Gentiles being grafted into - what? The olive tree - but what did that represent? I now realise that the olive tree is the true Israel by faith, going all the way back to Abraham. So my journey seems to have been not like that of others. I saw the idea in the Scripture, looked to see if my idea was right or not, researched more on the net, and discovered - you lot, for one
But technicalities aside, you are a Believer in the Living G-d, YHVH, following in the footsteps of Mashiach Yeshua ben Yosef.
These days I just call myself a Believer, and if someone asks what I believe, and I am not attempting to pull out every Hebrew word I know from my scant two years of studying the language to be very specific in defining my position so that it cannot be misunderstood, I just say I follow after Yeshua, and try to do as he did. It seems to answer every question without a label.
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Post by chrisg on Apr 23, 2016 8:09:32 GMT -8
Good point. I would prefer not to have labels either. The labels I am being plastered with are coming from outside - from other people. I wanted to know what they meant and what the differences were - some I had never even heard of!
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2016 14:30:53 GMT -8
Good point. I would prefer not to have labels either. The labels I am being plastered with are coming from outside - from other people. I wanted to know what they meant and what the differences were - some I had never even heard of! Labels can be a problem for us, especially if we allow others to label us. And the enemy always has minions standing ready to take our good name and try to apply it to every bit of craziness and insanity and heresy out there. The same happened when we called ourselves Nots'rim or Natsarim. I for one intend to take back both names!
The term Messianic Christian (and yes, I went through that phase too) is an oxymoron. We can't be both, as there are some very basic and irreconcilable differences in our doctrines as well as our history. But since you mention Christians earlier, think for a moment of all the wild denominations (and dead denominations, whose only sign of life is when they can kill another Christian); all the cults, false prophets and TV evangelists who try to fly their flag. It doesn't matter what you call yourself, if you do so in the name of God you will have to fight the forces of Hell for that title. This is why I say YOU should choose the title which best describes where YOU are right now. But make sure of the meaning of that title, because it will define you. Then stand your ground. Know all the insanity trying to steal your flame- because you will soon hear all about them and you had best have an answer as to why they are NOT. However a name that properly identifies you is important, as it saves time when talking to someone who is knowledgeable. And it can help deter others from labeling you.
A Proselyte to Messianic Judaism works best for me. It says what I believe, but that I am still learning. Also, due to my situation I am not quite fully observant, and so I do not want to give the impression I am by just saying I am Messianic when asked specifically. It also carries the implication that I am a Gentile convert- an ex pagan (I was Southern Baptist, and you don't get much more Gentile or pagan than that!  ). So that is what I tell people that I am.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Apr 23, 2016 14:44:59 GMT -8
If you are a Gentile, and keep the 7 laws of the Noahides, you are a Ger Toshav, because you are not an idolator. If you are a Gentile, keeping the 7 laws of the Noahides, and the Acts 15 observances, you are a Ger Toshav v' Talmid Yeshua...basically amoung the sojourners in the Jewish community who are Disciples of Yeshua.
...
Actually, if you are a Gentile keeping the Noachide laws, you are a "Noachide." And the so called "Acts 15 observances" so misunderstood by Christians was not a comprehensive list for any title or status. They were the minimum requirements for new believers and proselytes to the sect of the Nots'rim in order to be able to be admitted into fellowship. They were expected to learn and grow into full Observant Messianic Judaism.
Acts 15:28-35 (ESV) For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burden than these requirements: that you abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, and from blood, and from what has been strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well. Farewell.” So when they were sent off, they went down to Antioch, and having gathered the congregation together, they delivered the letter. And when they had read it, they rejoiced because of its encouragement. And Judas and Silas, who were themselves prophets, encouraged and strengthened the brothers with many words. And after they had spent some time, they were sent off in peace by the brothers to those who had sent them. But Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word of the Lord, with many others also.
Note that "Paul and Barnabas remained in Antioch, teaching and preaching the word." If those four things were all that were required, why stay on? Just mail the letter and relax. However if you have a bunch of Gentiles learning a new religious lifestyle, a bit of teaching is called for.
Dan C
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- there are 70 faces to 
, make more sense if they celebrated it just once a year - at Passover.
). So that is what I tell people that I am.
