Haftara for Par’sha Shemini, Ezekiel 36:16-38

[alon]

Haftara for Par’sha Shemini, Ezekiel 36:16-38

This is a bit long, so I will break the study into chapters. It will include some of 36:1-15. It is generally accepted that Ezekiel chapters 36-48 are as yet unfulfilled. They envision a future restoration of the people and land of Israel.

Ezekiel was part of the Babalonian exile in 597 BCE (2 kings 24:8-17). His prophecies of the final restoration of Israel was a comfort and hope to those experiencing this traumatic event. Since this is a vision with eschatological implications, we must understand it primarily in metaphoric terms. There are some things, such as resurrection, which have been debated by the rabbis as well as Christian theologians as being litteral; however those discussions are beyond the scope of this d’rash.

Since this will be broken into three pages, I will give my resources here: Rav S, JPS Study TNK, W Wiersby, FB Meyer, Unger, my father and others.

Ezekiel 36

Verses 1-7 tells of the future judgement of Israel’s enemies:

Ezekiel 36:1-7 (ESV) 1 “And you, son of man, prophesy to the mountains of Israel, and say, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord. 2 Thus says the Lord God: Because the enemy said of you, ‘Aha!’ and, ‘The ancient heights have become our possession,’ 3 therefore prophesy, and say, Thus says the Lord God: Precisely because they made you desolate and crushed you from all sides, so that you became the possession of the rest of the nations, and you became the talk and evil gossip of the people, 4 therefore, O mountains of Israel, hear the word of the Lord God: Thus says the Lord God to the mountains and the hills, the ravines and the valleys, the desolate wastes and the deserted cities, which have become a prey and derision to the rest of the nations all around, 5 therefore thus says the Lord God: Surely I have spoken in my hot jealousy against the rest of the nations and against all Edom, who gave my land to themselves as a possession with wholehearted joy and utter contempt, that they might make its pasturelands a prey. 6 Therefore prophesy concerning the land of Israel, and say to the mountains and hills, to the ravines and valleys, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I have spoken in my jealous wrath, because you have suffered the reproach of the nations. 7 Therefore thus says the Lord God: I swear that the nations that are all around you shall themselves suffer reproach.

The ‘mountains of Israel’ are a central highland ridge, which here stands for all Israel.

Deuteronomy 3:25 (ESV) Please let me go over and see the good land beyond the Jordan, that good hill country and Lebanon.’

Before Israel’s restoration takes place, her enemies must be judged:

Matthew 25:31-34, 41, 46 (ESV) The Final Judgment “When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. And he will place the sheep on his right, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. … “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. … And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Joel 3:16 (KJV) The Lord also shall roar out of Zion, and utter his voice from Jerusalem; and the heavens and the earth shall shake: but the Lord will be the hope of his people, and the strength of the children of Israel.

8-38 promises a return to the land. Eighteen times here God speaks His sovereign ‘I wills’ of hope and glory for Israel. The fertility of the land shall be restored:

Ezekiel 36:11 (KJV) And I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bring fruit: and I will settle you after your old estates, and will do better unto you than at your beginnings: and ye shall know that I am the Lord.

Ezekiel 36:14 (KJV) Therefore thou shalt devour men no more, neither bereave thy nations any more, saith the Lord God.

The land had been desecrated by idolatry and pagan sanctuaries in their high places, along with fertility cults and even human sacrifice.

Deuteronomy 12:2-3, 31 (ESV) You shall surely destroy all the places where the nations whom you shall dispossess served their gods, on the high mountains and on the hills and under every green tree. You shall tear down their altars and dash in pieces their pillars and burn their Asherim with fire. You shall chop down the carved images of their gods and destroy their name out of that place. … You shall not worship the Lord your God in that way, for every abominable thing that the Lord hates they have done for their gods, for they even burn their sons and their daughters in the fire to their gods.

In the next verses the past sins of Israel and her chastizements are reviewed:

Ezekiel 36:17 (ESV) “Son of man, when the house of Israel lived in their own land, they defiled it by their ways and their deeds. Their ways before me were like the uncleanness of a woman in her menstrual impurity.

The imagery here of menstrual blood is an illustration of the impurity of the land. The land is unclean in the sense of ritual unavailability, as is set down in Lev 15:9-30. This imagry is congruent with “the blood that they had shed in the land,” which is a metaphor for idolatrous practices:

Ezekiel 36:18 (ESV) So I poured out my wrath upon them for the blood that they had shed in the land, for the idols with which they had defiled it.

Their exile has profaned God’s name, implying the God of Israel is weaker than other gods because He had no power to stop the exodus :

Ezekiel 36:22 (ESV) “Therefore say to the house of Israel, Thus says the Lord God: It is not for your sake, O house of Israel, that I am about to act, but for the sake of my holy name, which you have profaned among the nations to which you came.

This verse through vs 38 carries future promise of restoration and blessing by His grace. Not for the sake of undeserving Israel but for His own sake God will restore Israel and thus reclaim His name. However this regathering will go far beyond a return from Babylon. This speaks of things to come in the end times, when God reclaims His creation.

Ezekiel 36:25 (ESV) I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean from all your uncleannesses, and from all your idols I will cleanse you.

There are two possible interpretations here; and I’d say both are valid as well as probable allusions. One is the mixing of the ashes of the Red Heifer with clean water and sprinkling it as told of in Numbers 19. Also:

Hebrews 9:13-14 (ESV) For if the blood of goats and bulls, and the sprinkling of defiled persons with the ashes of a heifer, sanctify for the purification of the flesh,

The other is tevilah, the ritual washing in a mikvah practiced by women after their menstrual cycle and both women and men for a variety of reasons. This more graphically continues the picture of spiritual/ritual unavailability.

Ezekiel 36:26-29 (ESV) And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules. You shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers, and you shall be my people, and I will be your God. And I will deliver you from all your uncleannesses. And I will summon the grain and make it abundant and lay no famine upon you.

In this picture of spiritual regeneration, the Renewed Covenant is outlined. Israel is given a new heart and a new spirit [in the JPS called a “cleansing spirit”], which are prerequisites for entrance into the kingdom.

John 3:3,5-6 (ESV) Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again[or from above] he cannot see the kingdom of God.” … Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

The remainder of the chapter is a picture of Israel happily reinstated and dwelling in a land of peace and plenty.  

[alon]

Ezekiel 37

The first fourteen verses of this chapter are the famous vision of the dry bones. This metaphorically speaks of the restoration of God’s chosen people, Israel . It is heavily debated whether this means only those born Jewish or if it includes those grafted into Judaism. My belief is that all those grafted into Judaism before Yeshua are included. I also believe that those grafted in afterwards and who trust in Yeshua as HaMoshiach are also included. This would certainly be the Meshiachim, but again there is debate as to whether it would include some or all Christians. Furthermore there is a lot of debate as to whether all observant Jews will be redeemed whether they accept Yeshua or not. I have my opinions, and they are at some points contrary to what Rav S and others believe. Fortunately it is beyond the scope of this d’rash to get into those- so you are spared my arguments, opinions and ramblings on these topics.

This vision is very graphic. The Jewish nation as well as the Christian Church have bore strong resemblance to those dry, bleaching bones. The prophet here is speaking metaphorically. He in all probability doesn’t mean actual, physical resurrection of dead; although we know this will happen in the end times. The image symbolizes restoration of Israel to their own land.

Ezekiel 37:3 (ESV) And he said to me, “Son of man, can these bones live?” And I answered, “O Lord God, you know.”

It is by divine power alone the restoration will be accomplished.

Ezekiel 37:4-6 (ESV) Then he said to me, “Prophesy over these bones, and say to them, O dry bones, hear the word of the Lord. Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath [spirit] to enter you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall live, and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

By the divine word life will be breathed into the nation.

Ezekiel 37:7-10 (ESV) So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I prophesied, there was a sound, and behold, a rattling, and the bones came together, bone to its bone. And I looked, and behold, there were sinews on them, and flesh had come upon them, and skin had covered them. But there was no breath in them. Then he said to me, “Prophesy to the breath; prophesy, son of man, and say to the breath, Thus says the Lord God: Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe on these slain, that they may live.” So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

Life, all life, is the gift of an all-powerful God. The breath of God was breathed into man at creation:

Genesis 2:7 (ESV) then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and the man became a living creature.

It was breathed into the written word:

2 Timothy 3:16 (ESV) All Scripture is breathed out by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

And it was breathed upon His sheliachim to empower them for ministry:

John 20:21-22 (ESV) Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.”

The purpose of the vision is outlined:

To demonstrate that Israel is elect among the nations; Ezekiel 37:10 (ESV) So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the breath came into them, and they lived and stood on their feet, an exceedingly great army.

To revive the lost hope of Israel; Ezekiel 37:11 (ESV) Then he said to me, “Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, ‘Our bones are dried up, and our hope is lost; we are indeed cut off.’

To settle the nation in their own land; Ezekiel 37:12 (ESV) Therefore prophesy, and say to them, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I will open your graves and raise you from your graves, O my people. And I will bring you into the land of Israel.

And to fulfill His word; Ezekiel 37:14 (ESV) And I will put my Spirit within you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I am the Lord; I have spoken, and I will do it, declares the Lord.”

Traditional Jewish exegetes find the resurrection of the dead before the day of judgement in the above verses. This is a fundamental belief of rabbinic Judaism:

Isaiah 26:19 (KJV) Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.

Daniel 12:2 (KJV) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to and everlasting contempt.in its plain sense meaning [metaphorically] the image symbolizes the restoration of Israel to its own land

However whether the prophet alludes to this or just to the restoration of the nation is difficult to say, since his method is metaphor. Neither view detracts from the message, so I leave it to you to form your own conclusions.

Next we come to the vision of the two sticks, symbolizing reconciliation; the uniting of a divided nation under a Davidic king in a covenant of peace. They are to be one nation, with one king and one Temple. According to Ephesians 2 God is doing this even today.

Ezekiel 37:15-17 (ESV) The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, take a stick and write on it, ‘For Judah, and the people of Israel associated with him’; then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph (the stick of Ephraim) and all the house of Israel associated with him.’ And join them one to another into one stick, that they may become one in your hand.

Judah is the southern kingdom. Joseph is the father of Ephriam, the central tribe of the northern kingdom, Israel. The restoration will result in:

A king forever; Ezekiel 37:24 (ESV) “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes.

A land in which to dwell forever; Ezekiel 37:25 (ESV) They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever.

A covenant of peace forever; Ezekiel 37:26 (ESV) I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore.

And a sanctuary and renewed relationship forever in God’s care: Ezekiel 37:27 (ESV) My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

In verses 20 and 21, Ezekiel transitions from metaphor to plain speech, and in the following verses of this chapter tells us what is meant by this and other recounting of his visions. God will gather the Hebrew exiles to establish them as one nation; and (we believe) Yeshua will be their Davidic king. They shall obey God’s laws, dwelling in peace with God in their land forever.

Ezekiel 37:24-27 (ESV) “My servant David shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall walk in my rules and be careful to obey my statutes. They shall dwell in the land that I gave to my servant Jacob, where your fathers lived. They and their children and their children's children shall dwell there forever, and David my servant shall be their prince forever. I will make a covenant of peace with them. It shall be an everlasting covenant with them. And I will set them in their land and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in their midst forevermore. My dwelling place shall be with them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[alon]

Ezekiel 38

God’s people will have enemies until the time the kingdom is established. Chapters 38 &39 describe a coalition of nations in the latter days; one which will attack Israel when she is at peace in her land. These visions against Gog, a ruler from the land of Magog, express an apocalyptic view of God’s victory over the nations which threaten His people. The original identity of Gog is uncertain, but matters little as he is understood to be a symbol of evil among the nations.

Isaiah 63:1 (KJV) Who is this that cometh from Edom, with dyed garments from Bozrah? this that is glorious in his apparel, travelling in the greatness of his strength? I that speak in righteousness, mighty to save.

Verses 1-6, the prophecy against Gog, tell of the last day northern confederacy:

Ezekiel 38:1-6 (ESV) The word of the Lord came to me: “Son of man, set your face toward Gog, of the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him and say, Thus says the Lord God: Behold, I am against you, O Gog, chief prince of Meshech and Tubal. And I will turn you about and put hooks into your jaws, and I will bring you out, and all your army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed in full armor, a great host, all of them with buckler and shield, wielding swords. Persia, Cush, and Put are with them, all of them with shield and helmet; G omer and all his hordes; Beth-togarmah from the uttermost parts of the north with all his hordes—many peoples are with you.

Gog is leader of the coalition, and Magog is his land. He is said to be ‘chief prince’ of Meshech S of Gomer, or Cimmerians in central Asia Minor and Greece and Turkey. Part of this land, the ‘remotest parts of the north’ is occupied by Russia. Gomer, Magog, Meshech and Tubal were sons of Japheth (gen 10.2)

Genesis 10:2-3 (ESV) The sons of Japheth: Gomer, Magog, Madai, Javan, Tubal, Meshech, and Tiras. The sons of Gomer: Ashkenaz, Riphath, and Togarmah.

Allied with this immense power from the north are Persia (Iran), Cush (probably ancient Kish in Mesopotamia), Nubia (Ethopia) and Put (Libya).

Genesis 10:6 (ESV) The sons of Ham: Cush, Egypt, Put, and Canaan.

In verses 7-23 we see the attack on Israel. Herein the Lord personally and unmistakably gives the victory.

Ezekiel 38:8 (ESV) After many days you will be mustered. In the latter years you will go against the land that is restored from war, the land whose people were gathered from many peoples upon the mountains of Israel, which had been a continual waste. Its people were brought out from the peoples and now dwell securely, all of them.

This speaks of “latter years,” a future time when the Jews are restored to their land and to God.

Ezekiel 38:10-13 (ESV) “Thus says the Lord God: On that day, thoughts will come into your mind, and you will devise an evil scheme and say, ‘I will go up against the land of unwalled villages. I will fall upon the quiet people who dwell securely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having no bars or gates,’ to seize spoil and carry off plunder, to turn your hand against the waste places that are now inhabited, and the people who were gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell at the center of the earth. Sheba and Dedan and the merchants of Tarshish and all its leaders will say to you, ‘Have you come to seize spoil? Have you assembled your hosts to carry off plunder, to carry away silver and gold, to take away livestock and goods, to seize great spoil?’

Gog’s intentions here is to plunder nations, including Israel. Sheba is southern Arabia, Dedan central Arabia, and Tarshish is Tartessos in Spain.

Ezekiel 38:14-15 (ESV) “Therefore, son of man, prophesy, and say to Gog, Thus says the Lord God: On that day when my people Israel are dwelling securely, will you not know it? You will come from your place out of the uttermost parts of the north, you and many peoples with you, all of them riding on horses, a great host, a mighty army.

Gog comes against Israel with a mighty army. The JPS says on ‘that distant day’ (in latter days), again referring to a time in the future. Contextually this probably has eschatological implications.

Ezekiel 38:16 (ESV) You will come up against my people Israel, like a cloud covering the land. In the latter days I will bring you against my land, that the nations may know me, when through you, O Gog, I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.

“That the nations may know Me” means they will recognize God’s power and sovereignty over all. This will be a prophesied event which encompasses all things and all peoples.

Ezekiel 38:19-20 (ESV) For in my jealousy and in my blazing wrath I declare, On that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel. The fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and the beasts of the field and all creeping things that creep on the ground, and all the people who are on the face of the earth, shall quake at my presence. And the mountains shall be thrown down, and the cliffs shall fall, and every wall shall tumble to the ground.

The all-encompassing nature of this defeat is seen in these verses. ‘Fish, birds, beasts, and human beings’ reflects the order of creation in Gen 1.

Ezekiel 38:21-22 (ESV) I will summon a sword against Gog on all my mountains, declares the Lord God. Every man's sword will be against his brother. With pestilence and bloodshed I will enter into judgment with him, and I will rain upon him and his hordes and the many peoples who are with him torrential rains and hailstones, fire and sulfur.

The defeat of Gog by the sword as well as natural elements here reflects God’s role as creator. It is also reminiscent of the destruction of Sodom and Gomorah (Gen chs 18, 19).

[Elizabeth]

Wow, thanks for posting. It is very helpful as this passage gives me a headache to try to deal with on my own.  I would like to hear more about the dry bones debate you referred to, though I feel a bit like a fish taking the bait.

I am completely thrown by the idea that observant Jews who don't accept Yeshua are "redeemed".  What does "redeemed" refer to exactly in the context of this passage?  "Redeemed" is the word you used in your post btw. Sorry, I just don't have good luck with editing down people's quotes to the few sentences I am referencing so didn't even try.   I just want to clarify that understanding because it is pretty much contrary to everything else I have heard up until now.  Is this an idea found amongst Messianic Believers?

[alon]

Apr 2, 2016 13:24:16 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Wow, thanks for posting. It is very helpful as this passage gives me a headache to try to deal with on my own.  I would like to hear more about the dry bones debate you referred to, though I feel a bit like a fish taking the bait.

I am completely thrown by the idea that observant Jews who don't accept Yeshua are "redeemed".  What does "redeemed" refer to exactly in the context of this passage?  "Redeemed" is the word you used in your post btw. Sorry, I just don't have good luck with editing down people's quotes to the few sentences I am referencing so didn't even try.   I just want to clarify that understanding because it is pretty much contrary to everything else I have heard up until now.  Is this an idea found amongst Messianic Believers?

Well, I knew someone would ask … but that's ok ...

Redemption means bought back with a price. You’d redeem something you hocked at the pawn shop. Similarly we were Gods’ from creation, but sin separated us and He had to redeem us if He wanted us back. Thankfully, He did!

I am not really qualified to give you a thorough account of the arguments for Israel being redeemed as a nation. I can give a few of the scriptures they use to interpret this, though none has ever given me a satisfactory scripture reference that says they will be redeemed without accepting their Messiah; either as an act of faith before the fact, or as acceptance of Yeshua afterwards. Mostly Jews think in terms of a national salvation, and so many Messianic Jews have this idea all Jews will go to heaven. We are no different though, hoping against hope that our friends and relatives in the church will make it despite their rejecting and practicing idolatry.

Here are some (but far from all and I don’t really remember them all- just the arguments):

Romans 11:1-6, 25-32 (ESV) I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew. Do you not know what the Scripture says of Elijah, how he appeals to God against Israel? “Lord, they have killed your prophets, they have demolished your altars, and I alone am left, and they seek my life.” But what is God's reply to him? “I have kept for myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal.” So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. … Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. And in this way all Israel will be saved, as it is written, “The Deliverer will come from Zion, he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”; “and this will be my covenant with them when I take away their sins.” As regards the gospel, they are enemies for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30 For just as you were at one time disobedient to God but now have received mercy because of their disobedience, so they too have now been disobedient in order that by the mercy shown to you they also may now receive mercy. For God has consigned all to disobedience, that he may have mercy on all.

Isaiah 59:20-21 (ESV) “And a Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,” declares the Lord. “And as for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord: “My Spirit that is upon you, and my words that I have put in your mouth, shall not depart out of your mouth, or out of the mouth of your offspring, or out of the mouth of your children's offspring,” says the Lord, “from this time forth and forevermore.”

Jeremiah 31:33 (ESV) For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

The entire chapter of Zechariah 10, represented by Zechariah 10:6 (ESV) “I will strengthen the house of Judah, and I will save the house of Joseph. I will bring them back because I have compassion on them, and they shall be as though I had not rejected them, for I am the Lord their God and I will answer them.

This haftara is also one of the things they quote to bolster their arguments. It also contains the controversial “dry bones” vision. Many (both Jews and moreso the Gentiles) say that this is a picture of resurrection. We do know there will be a resurrection, however just because that will happen does not mean that is what the prophet is seeing here. Ezekiel 37:20-28 goes from allegory to plain speech and tells us exactly what the prophet was talking about. Israel will be regathered and yes, it seems there will be a national salvation of some kind. But I just do not see it saying all Jews will be reassembled and saved whether they believed Yeshua was HaMoshiach or not. Furthermore the plain speech part of the text says nothing about resurrection, just reassembly of the nation, meaning those still alive.

I personally think these will all be Jews who HAVE accepted Yeshua. And they may even come to Him after some event pushes them that way. But to be in the Olam Haba, they, like us, will have to not only believe He is the Messiah, but accept Him as Lord- THEIR Lord! But that’s me. Those who disagree have been very knowlegable and well educated people, both in person and on the net. So once again I could be wrong, but no one has convinced me of that yet.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

I will have to think about this further. The "all Israel" will be saved verse has intrigued me before and this is how I came to terms with it. Those who don't accept Yeshua cut themselves off from Israel. This is based on Yeshua's own words that no one comes to the Father but through him and the belief He is in the flesh. Even in the we can see not all Israel was saved as the commanded some to be cut off from Israel.

[Elizabeth]

Honestly, this seems like a really dangerous idea to me. I do think G-d will act in a way that calls Israel as a nation to Yeshua, but I don't think it will be pretty as it never has been when Israel transgresses . The idea that individuals do not have to come to Yeshua shocks me. What about the communal impact such a disregard for Him has had over centuries? What about countless other verses that say the exact opposite? Sorry, not buying it, nor do I think it serves any good purpose for those who do. We need to pray and live like Yeshua is primary for all.

As far as remnant goes, G-d knows who is His before we do. We wander around confused and "lost" but are even then saved as He allows us to go through the process we need to go through to remember and glorify Him. We are the ones who need the time. I think it's the same for the remnant of Israel. Many who deny Yeshua already belong to Him but simply don't know it yet. G-d knows what He's doing. Sometimes I think He only puts up with the world for the sake of Israel and Yeshua who prays for them.

Anyway, honestly, this idea disturbs me. Yeshua deserves to be taken seriously, as does , as does G-d the Creator. This notion seems plain wrong. I don't think I could stick around in Messianic Judaism if it is generally accepted. It's one thing to pray against all odds depending on the strength of Yeshua, it's another thing to deny the significance of Yeshua to try and change them.

[alon]

Apr 3, 2016 6:35:20 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Honestly, this seems like a really dangerous idea to me. I do think G-d will act in a way that calls Israel as a nation to Yeshua, but I don't think it will be pretty as it never has been when Israel transgresses . The idea that individuals do not have to come to Yeshua shocks me. What about the communal impact such a disregard for Him has had over centuries? What about countless other verses that say the exact opposite? Sorry, not buying it, nor do I think it serves any good purpose for those who do. We need to pray and live like Yeshua is primary for all.

As far as remnant goes, G-d knows who is His before we do. We wander around confused and "lost" but are even then saved as He allows us to go through the process we need to go through to remember and glorify Him. We are the ones who need the time. I think it's the same for the remnant of Israel. Many who deny Yeshua already belong to Him but simply don't know it yet. G-d knows what He's doing. Sometimes I think He only puts up with the world for the sake of Israel and Yeshua who prays for them.

Anyway, honestly, this idea disturbs me. Yeshua deserves to be taken seriously, as does , as does G-d the Creator. This notion seems plain wrong. I don't think I could stick around in Messianic Judaism if it is generally accepted. It's one thing to pray against all odds depending on the strength of Yeshua, it's another thing to deny the significance of Yeshua to try and change them.

This is only an idea, and I agree it is a dangerous one. It is argued by different people; Messianic and those just claiming to be, and even Christians. The Jews themselves of course do, as far as I understand, believe there will be a national salvation. How widely it is accepted I do not know. However I look at it like this: because someone else has an idea doesn't make it right or wrong. But before I'll accept it, I want proof. No one has adequately done this, so I am free to disbelieve it. It's not taught here, at least that I've seen. And if someone did want to teach this doctrine I'd a.) again ask for their proof texts b.) look to see if they are violating any rules, and c.) probably send it to R Reuel for review. We take a hard line on false doctrine here, though I myself like to approach things with caution as I do not know all or even most of "it." Sometimes it is difficult to know when to step in and "moderate," but I can always step up and say I do not believe it. So if you should come across this or any other doctrine that you think is dangerous being taught here, do not hesitate to report it. Just please allow time for it to work itself out. And you can always step up and say it is not so ... just "play nice" ...

Messianic Judaism outside this forum is a different thing. There are a lot of groups, all learning and many teaching different things. There are also a lot of unaffiliated groups, and others trying to claim Messianic status who are not. So be careful and know who you are talking to. It doesn't make me want to leave MJ when I've found these people. But I have told them I cannot fellowship with them.

As for your post here, I have to step up and say ...

I agree!

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

What scares me the most about this idea, besides it being false, is it may cause some people to become half-hearted. At this point, all I can really do on my part is pray. I don't know what G-d has in store for me, but I am fairly confident a fundamental ferver for the spiritual and physical well-fare of Israel is involved. I also believe in a national level of salvation for Israel, but I am not going to rely on Israel suffering its way through to find it. Yes, maybe that's foretold, but even Yeshua prayed for the cup to be taken from Him if at all possible. Ok it wasn't, but we are here with the truth for a reason. I am sure He is praying the same thing He prayed for Himself on behalf of His people. Let's not water down the truth thinking we're doing anyone in favors.

[garrett]

Apr 3, 2016 6:35:20 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Honestly, this seems like a really dangerous idea to me. I do think G-d will act in a way that calls Israel as a nation to Yeshua, but I don't think it will be pretty as it never has been when Israel transgresses . The idea that individuals do not have to come to Yeshua shocks me. What about the communal impact such a disregard for Him has had over centuries? What about countless other verses that say the exact opposite? Sorry, not buying it, nor do I think it serves any good purpose for those who do. We need to pray and live like Yeshua is primary for all.

As far as remnant goes, G-d knows who is His before we do. We wander around confused and "lost" but are even then saved as He allows us to go through the process we need to go through to remember and glorify Him. We are the ones who need the time. I think it's the same for the remnant of Israel. Many who deny Yeshua already belong to Him but simply don't know it yet. G-d knows what He's doing. Sometimes I think He only puts up with the world for the sake of Israel and Yeshua who prays for them.

Anyway, honestly, this idea disturbs me. Yeshua deserves to be taken seriously, as does , as does G-d the Creator. This notion seems plain wrong. I don't think I could stick around in Messianic Judaism if it is generally accepted. It's one thing to pray against all odds depending on the strength of Yeshua, it's another thing to deny the significance of Yeshua to try and change them.

I agree with Elizabeth's thinking on this. As far as I can tell, the logic is pretty straightforward. I often (also) think G-d will call Israel as a nation to Yeshua...and I don't think it will be pretty.

This covenant that Yeshua brought was first to the Jews and then to the Gentiles. If it is of utmost importance for the rest of the nations to acknowledge Yeshua then it is incumbent on "Israel" to do so even more, because they were given the oracles of G-d. That's pretty heavy stuff to me...and I don't know how it will happen ( to a degree it IS happening in Israel now more than ever before ) but time will reveal this.

I may be going out on a limb, but I think the "gnashing of teeth" is used to describe those who had the truth right in front of them their whole lives, yet rejected it; it's plainness forsaken (especially in light of the holy scriptures).

garrett

[alon]

This week's haftara.

Dan C