Galatians 3v3

[chrisg]

Can someone please explain this to me. Paul has clearly set out that salvation is not through the works of the law, but through faith. That much I understand and accept. But then he says 'having begun in the Spirit, are you now made perfect by the works of the flesh?' This seems to suggest that obeying the law is not how to continue in faith. I have done some research on this, but haven't found a satisfactory answer - Paul surely is not saying that obedience to the law is of no use for life and practice after one is saved by faith?

[alon]

Here is an excerpt from a Galatians study done by Rav S which might help:

Galatians 3:3 (ESV) Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by [Or now ending with] the flesh?

This affirms what we already believe, we’re Saved by faith and by G-d’s Grace. We’re not legalists. Paul then says “Are ye so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?” Stern (CJB) makes it more comprehensive and translates it as “Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power?”

Dan C

edit: this addresses the question somewhat tangentially; but it gives some context:

theloveofgod.proboards.com/thread/3658/landscape-galations

[Elizabeth]

I don't understand either except that I believe faith, spirit, grace, and works cannot be separated. They go hand-in-hand. This is how I come to terms with it. 

We know according to James 2:17 that faith without works is dead. If you are lead by the spirit, saved by grace, growing in true faith, your works will make this known. Your works are not so much a factor in salvation but rather the product of salvation.  

I simply don't think we can separate them out the way Christisnity tries to teach us, and the distinction they are trying to make is being projected onto Paul. Works and grace are not mutually exclusive, yet they have to rely on that to some extent to make their argument. We are saved by grace, and lead by the spirit to produce good works. I think the distinction to be made is between the idea of works producing salvation or works as a product/result of salvation. Works still exists in the equation. The question is where.

[jimmie]

Works or lack of works (sin) is how one is condemned. Grace and faith are how you get out of the condemnation. You can’t do any works to remove the condemnation. For example if you murder Bob, not murdering Joe will never remove the condemnation of murdering Bod. That can only be accomplished through faith and grace.

[chrisg]

I have been studying and thinking about this today and have come to some conclusions which may or may not be right. First, Galatians is primarily about circumcision, not the law in general; second, therefore it is wrong to jump to the whole law without first seeing if the primary 'law' of circumcision is the key; third, the verse in question could be something along the following lines: the Galatian Christians had been pressed by Judaisers to become proselytes first and told that if they did not, they could not be saved. Becoming a proselyte involved being circumcised - that was the key act they had to perform to show they were truly becoming Jews. Paul calls this 'another gospel' and counsels them by question and answer - did you receive grace through faith, or through getting circumcised? Obviously, the answer is 'through faith'. So, eventually the Judaisers (perhaps) begin to gain the upper hand (Paul saying 'I am amazed that you are so soon turned away to another gospel which is no gospel in reality'). But the Galatians maybe are worried - what if the Judaisers are right? What if they need to be circumcised in order to be Christians? And they then, after they have received Christ through faith, have taken on circumcision as a kind of 'insurance policy' just to make sure they have it right - after all, it can't hurt, can it? But it can! If they believe they need to be circumcised then it makes their faith of no effect. It is either one or the other - you cannot rely on both for salvation.

How am I doing?

[alon]

Apr 1, 2016 9:29:54 GMT -8 chrisg said:

I have been studying and thinking about this today and have come to some conclusions which may or may not be right. First, Galatians is primarily about circumcision, not the law in general; second, therefore it is wrong to jump to the whole law without first seeing if the primary 'law' of circumcision is the key; third, the verse in question could be something along the following lines: the Galatian Christians had been pressed by Judaisers to become proselytes first and told that if they did not, they could not be saved. Becoming a proselyte involved being circumcised - that was the key act they had to perform to show they were truly becoming Jews. Paul calls this 'another gospel' and counsels them by question and answer - did you receive grace through faith, or through getting circumcised? Obviously, the answer is 'through faith'. So, eventually the Judaisers (perhaps) begin to gain the upper hand (Paul saying 'I am amazed that you are so soon turned away to another gospel which is no gospel in reality'). But the Galatians maybe are worried - what if the Judaisers are right? What if they need to be circumcised in order to be Christians? And they then, after they have received Christ through faith, have taken on circumcision as a kind of 'insurance policy' just to make sure they have it right - after all, it can't hurt, can it? But it can! If they believe they need to be circumcised then it makes their faith of no effect. It is either one or the other - you cannot rely on both for salvation.

How am I doing?

Galatians is about many things, but one of the main topics was legalism. Unfortunately this was a new concept for which there was no word in either Hebrew or Greek. Legalism was the doctrine that you had to fully convert to Judaism before you could be saved. Rav Sha'ul recognized this as the biggest threat to his people (and to Gentiles considering Messianic conversion) that had ever come along. He has been proven correct. However since there was no such word as "legalism" Rav Sha'ul had to use the closest thing he did have, and that was "law." This is why when he writes about the law his arguments are so twisted- convoluted, confusing.

Many of the sects at that time were radicals, some looking for proselytes wherever they could find them. This new group, freshly driven out of Judaism as well as driven from their homes and dispersed; with no knowledgeable rabbi,  must have looked to them like easy pickin's. Note that this is how many see us today, so there are lessons to be learned here. So they were coming to these new gentile believers and spreading false doctrines based all or in part on works. Neither Rav Sha'ul nor the Nots'rim nor even mainstream Judaism believed this. That's why they went to none of these synagogues, but came to those who were Gentiles, isolated and vulnerable. There they spread these heresies. Rav Sha'ul and the council (probably a beit din) acted quickly to squelch these teachings and to get those people some good instruction.

We believe in works. We believe they are the natural product of our salvation and our walk with God. We do not believe they are necessary or even helpful for salvation. We come to God as broken souls begging for mercy, accepting Him (Yeshua, who is God), repenting which means turning back to our natural place walking with and trusting Him. From there on we will want to do good works- works which start with and will continue all our lives, studying the Word. Works such as getting together with other believers and helping each other grow. And later, a we are ready, who knows what works He has for us.

Circumcision- sorry guys, it is necessary. It is one of the works we do like wearing tzitzyot which shows we are His. You can be saved without it, but participation in things like Pesach is restricted. Snip it or stay home. This is the covenant mark, and some say rejecting it is to reject God. I won't go that far, but if you truly want to please Him, and you know this is important to Him ... figure it out! I don't think Rav Sha'ul went around checking, however in those days tevilah was done often and in the nude. So word would have gotten out. If you are serious, you'll get it done. PM me if you like, but it ain't that bad; and there are ways to make healing easier.

I am sure there were some who were convinced of these doctrines. We are not told what all happened to them, other than they had to leave the fellowship. Some may have went to mainstream Judaism, others into these eclectic sects, and others probably just fell away. Some may have even gravitated to the Christian church which was just starting to form. Who knows, but I suspect it wasn't much different from today. Our main task is to be on guard against these kinds of heresies trying to creep into our faith.

Today, we face a twisted kind of legalism. First off, the church, which is far more legalistic but hides it well, will accuse us of legalism because they neither know nor care what we teach. They set up a straw man argument about us, hanging all the "obvious" charges on this dummy, then attack it and claim victory over us. All we can do is know what we believe and not listen to their convoluted arguments and lies; and try to set the record straight with those who will listen. Then there are those calling themselves Messianic Jews who actually would make us legalists, saying we must do this or that before we can be saved. All you have to do to be saved is trust Yeshua and repent. Bada-boom, yur in! That's even more simple than some of the "plans of salvation" I've seen at various churches, most of which downplay repentance.

When Rav S gets back from South America I'll ask him about putting some of his Galations stuff up here. I'll have to get the OK from R Reuel too, since last time turned out badly. But I think I can maybe clean up some of the heavier parts so we don't have people burning their Bibles! I'll try and see what I can do.

Dan C