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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 25, 2015 8:04:40 GMT -8
As I understand it, being clean of unclean in biblical terms is basically about whether you are fit in your human condition to draw near to G-d. Is this an accurate basic understanding? I ask this because this understanding doesn't fit with my experience, or any other believers, who through the Holy Spirit are drawn to G-d. How are our bodies acceptable dwelling places for G-d's Spirit if we are unclean? I am unclean according to these rules, yet I have the Spirit and am close to G-d. I reconcile this issue with the blood of Yeshua. He makes me clean, but that leaves me trying to reconcile it with  -Observsnce regarding clean and unclean as we understand it and seek to observe it. |
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Post by alon on Oct 25, 2015 9:15:27 GMT -8
Ritual impurity was an issue when the Temple stood because it was collected and built up in the Temple. Too much and the Spirit of God would leave, bringing disaster upon the nation. How this effects our lives today I am not sure, however I am fairly certain it will effect us. If we do all we can I believe God will credit us with righteousness. However I pray for a congregation large and consistent enough that we can start to look at building our own synagogue instead of renting space. Then we can build in a mikvah.
Dan C
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lou
Junior Member
married 15 yrs
Posts: 89 
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Post by lou on Oct 25, 2015 11:58:40 GMT -8
As I understand it, being clean of unclean in biblical terms is basically about whether you are fit in your human condition to draw near to G-d. Is this an accurate basic understanding? I ask this because this understanding doesn't fit with my experience, or any other believers, who through the Holy Spirit are drawn to G-d. How are our bodies acceptable dwelling places for G-d's Spirit if we are unclean? I am unclean according to these rules, yet I have the Spirit and am close to G-d. I reconcile this issue with the blood of Yeshua. He makes me clean, but that leaves me trying to reconcile it with -Observsnce regarding clean and unclean as we understand it and seek to observe it. Ty Elizabeth for this understanding. After reading the niddah thread I was completely overwhelmed to the point of giving up on most observance. I cannot keep this law n your post Elizabeth has set me free to continue on in my search for truth in the mitzvah. As I understand it, being clean of unclean in biblical terms is basically about whether you are fit in your human condition to draw near to G-d. Is this an accurate basic understanding? I ask this because this understanding doesn't fit with my experience, or any other believers, who through the Holy Spirit are drawn to G-d. How are our bodies acceptable dwelling places for G-d's Spirit if we are unclean? I am unclean according to these rules, yet I have the Spirit and am close to G-d. I reconcile this issue with the blood of Yeshua. He makes me clean, but that leaves me trying to reconcile it with -Observsnce regarding clean and unclean as we understand it and seek to observe it. |
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Post by alon on Oct 25, 2015 12:43:32 GMT -8
Ty Elizabeth for this understanding. After reading the niddah thread I was completely overwhelmed to the point of giving up on most observance. I cannot keep this law n your post Elizabeth has set me free to continue on in my search for truth in the mitzvah.
Sex is an important part of a marriage; for many men it is the most important part. These mitzvoth protect the relationship from this error. The yoledet is protected from being coerced into sexual relations too soon. And all around the marriage is strengthened as focus is placed on things other than just sex. And sex itself becomes more intimate, more like the spark when first married. The Chinese say too much sex is unhealthy (silly Chinamen); but just maybe God knows something about that too. Time is freed up for children as well as sharing chores. I can see how these laws would help promote a more well rounded family if not taken to extremes.
And always remember, no one, least of all God, expects you to just jump in and get all this right. It'll take time, and we will make mistakes, and God will show us those mistakes or the next step when the time is right for us. Like now, this looks like it will be a hot topic. I've been looking at this for a while and saying I need to implement some of these practices. But true confession time- I've just flat been too lazy to do more than look. I could use the excuse that it is just too overwhelming. But I know God doesn't expect me to whelm over what I can handle. Ya'll asking about it right now is to me like God saying "Do it or I'll show you what whelming is all about!" He does that to me sometimes, otherwise I'd get complacent ... so I'll start by washing the bedding and work up from there. Just keep improving and do what we can is all that is expected.
Dan (I'm as lost as you all are) C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Oct 27, 2015 7:44:01 GMT -8
I appreciate that these practices keep our focus on G-d and help remind us of the limitations of our human condition. That's where I currently find my understanding. I think they can easily get out of hand if we are not considering them in G-d's Spirit. We literally all fall short; mikvah or not. Thats the only reason we need such practices in the first place. As long as we keep them in the right heart, keeping these commands can certainly humble us before G-d and lead us closer to Him. However, in the wrong Spirit, I could see how they could do the opposite.
The truth I can currently find, is how much Yeshua has really done for us. If this is our starting point, then the ending point Yeshua brings us to seems like that much more of an otherwise unobtainable goal. I get a glimpse of the vastness of the blessings I have through my Saviour and the gravity of my unsaved condition.
I do think we have to be careful that the way these things are considered does not cause us to limit the work of Yeshua. It helps me grasp the ungraspable a bit and reminds me of the place he has brought me up from. It should remind us of all Yeshua gives and the nothing (without him) we ultimately have to offer. Honestly, without Yeshua, all we have to offer is our own failure for all of Creation. G-d gave us dominion we failed Him and all of creation. G-d gave us life, without Yeshua, all we have to offer in return is death. Without him, that is our starting point.
Anyway, Yeshua not only makes us clean, but also a new Creation. We should never forget that and have to guard that truth. We have a new starting point through Yeshua. It's life, and it always is and has always been from the only one who can give it. Thanks be to G-d! These commandments help remind me of what repentance and a new beginning means. That's how I currently reconcile my original question.
I think maybe this conversation has given me a little more insight into the Paul's writings.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 24, 2015 8:51:20 GMT -8
I just wanted to expand some on my thoughts after having more time to think about this.
The Holy Spirit is a gift of faith through the grace of Yeshua. It's not a gift of obedience. It's a gift of salvation. Clean or unclean is irrelevant spiritually as the Holy Spirit makes us new. After receiving Yeshua's Spirit, we are made a new creation with limitless potential through the strength of our G-d.
So what is the point of keeping the commandments?
After studying more and hearing from people who know more than me, it finally struck me on a deeper level what a gift it is to show G-d we want to obey Him. A gift for us to be clear as it is our blessing that we get to obey Him. That's because before being saved, we simply couldn't. We couldn't walk with Him, listen for Him, depend on His wisdom and promises. There was no use in the commandments for us before salvation as we were not with G-d. Their purpose is only found after we are saved, as it is then that we can walk with Him, hear from Him, seek to please Him, and rejoice in Him.
Immersion, circumcision, .... isn't about keeping a commandment to make us anything but understsnding of being so blessed. It is the simple blessing of finally getting to listen, follow, and praise G-d. To be seen by Him.
If I have an opportunity to more completely keep the commandments physically and communally, I just want to rejoice in that. I don't want to keep them because I am scared of not doing so, I feel it makes me better or more complete somehow, or because I feel somehow less otherwise.
I just want to rejoice in my chance to show Him I am grateful He saved me and brought me here to this or that place. We as His children get to see the joy in getting to do what He says. I think the focus should be in celebrating them.
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Post by alon on Nov 24, 2015 19:34:52 GMT -8
The Holy Spirit is a gift of faith through the grace of Yeshua. It's not a gift of obedience. It's a gift of salvation. Clean or unclean is irrelevant spiritually as the Holy Spirit makes us new. After receiving Yeshua's Spirit, we are made a new creation with limitless potential through the strength of our G-d.
Jhn 14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
Jhn 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
It's a gift of love as well. But that love is conditional- "keep my commandments."
Pro 4:4 He taught me also, and said unto me, Let thine heart retain my words: keep my commandments, and live.
That isn't meant to scare us, but to warn us. The commandments are life. They are God's instructions for holy living, given for our benefit. God doesn't just give us things to obey without reason; nor does He give anything that will harm us. We have the power to chose not to obey and thereby risk harm. Sin is destructive not just in the olam haba, but all too often in the here and now as well.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
That same Jesus that gave the gift through His grace told us how to maintain the gift. Obedience. Without it we risk loss.
There is a lot of Christian theological influence in your post. They focus on grace and love, but downplay obedience. You have turned a corner in recognizing the importance of obedience even within their theology. What you said has merit, and I don't mean to downplay it. We do obey out of love, and that love is returned a hundredfold and then some. But we also need to understand there is more to the point than that. If there were not, He would not have told us.
Dan C
Note: go to Blue Letter Bible or any Bible search engine and type in "keep my commandments" and see how much pops up- it'll make your eyes pop!
Psalm 103:17-18 (ESV) But the steadfast love of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting on those who fear him, and his righteousness to children's children,
to those who keep his covenant and remember to do his commandments.
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Post by jimmie on Nov 25, 2015 6:16:49 GMT -8
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 25, 2015 7:09:32 GMT -8
As someone who can't go to mikvah and is keeping home with a non-believing husband, I can't keep the commandments while keeping the heart of them in my current situation. Yet, I am close to G-d in spite of being technically unclean. This says more about the power of Yeshua then me or me keeping the commandments.
Salvation has always come first, then in gratitude and wisdom seeking to walk in G-d's ways. Maybe there is a lot of Christian influence in my post. As, I have stated before, I circle around things as I try to understand them. However, I know as a Christian, if given the opportunity to observe these types of commands, I wouldn't have wanted to and Yeshua would have been my excuse not to. Now, I would joyfully do so because it's a gift to be able to do what G-d says. I may be asking the same question, but I am not asking it in the same heart.
I am not downplaying the significance of keeping the commandments, but if we are keeping the commandments in any way thinking it makes us somehow more or better, does it not downplay the significance of Yeshua? Does it not conflict on some level with our spiritual experience as Temples of the Living G-d? This is where I found myself asking the same question I thought I already had answered again. Why keep the commandments?
I do what G-d says because He knows better, but I can't keep all He says. One basic issue is His instructions to wives to submit to husbands. Obviously, as my husband is the husband but G-d is my G-d, I as a wife with a husband who doesn't submit himself to G-d have a conflict.
It's only through the Spirit that I can manage this, and only through the Spirit that I can stay close to G-d. So G-d keeps me close in spite of my own weakness or uncleanness because ultimately all of this is to serve a greater purpose then just me. That is accomplished through the grace of Yeshua that makes me clean. The point is I live, eat, and breathe grace because of who I am and my situation. What choice do I have? If G-d were to make my closeness to Him somehow contingent upon me and what I can do, what would it accomplish except moving us all as a family further from His will?
I know this is an old conversation, but there is a discrepancy in my spiritual experience and what I hear here sometimes. I believe in doing what G-d says to do, and I believe in doing it enthusiastically. This is not an attempt to suggest anything otherwise. I am just trying to understand how I can reconcile my experience with understanding.
I worry that sometimes we could run into a different problem than what I ran into in Christianity but resulting in a similar mindset. I found myself feeling burdened by the commandments, but rather by my inability and inopportunity to keep them. I caught myself in this thinking as G-d has made sure to keep me close and gave Himself on account of this issue nevertheless. I guess it did bring me back
to some Christian thinking, but not from the same heart or perspective.
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Post by Elizabeth on Nov 25, 2015 9:06:27 GMT -8
Sorry Jimmy, I didn't mean to disregard your post. I just missed it in the midst of the email notification about a response. Thanks for the help and response. I look forward to reading it but it will be a while as we are getting ready to leave for Thanksgiving. |
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Post by alon on Nov 25, 2015 9:50:21 GMT -8
Elizabeth, I know it is difficult to be observant in a divided home. I am in much the same situation, as my wife absolutely hates anything Jewish; especially Gentiles acting like Jews. She is more understanding now that it is apparent I am in this for the long haul, but it is very difficult to keep when your spouse still keeps to things Christian. It would be even more difficult for you trying to be an obedient wife while still keeping God's instructions first. This is where grace comes in. He doesn't expect more than we can do. He does expect us to do what we can; but that is often a fine and not well defined line to walk. Expect mistakes but don't get hung up on them.
It can get discouraging. We think "What's the point?" Well, the point is as you have discovered- love. His love for us returned as both obedience AND as trust that He will understand and guide us. I understand that if we focus on obedience as a requirement it gets depressing when we can't keep some mitzvoth. It's also a nuisance to keep trying sometimes when there is no clear answer to "how far should I push this?" We have to set limits where others don't have to worry about it. Things like keeping Shabbat holy when everyone else wants to do things which violate the Sabbath. And there are many things we miss out on. For example, my Shabbat is marked by me trying to observe a half hour fence and just starting my observance. Meals are regular meals, and after Shabbat there is no havdalah. It can take the joy out of the day observing by yourself, mostly in silence, while everyone else is having fun. Not that we can't have fun with them; but inevitably they'll want to do things which conflict with our keeping the day holy. This is further complicated because almost no Christian I have ever known even comes close to keeping their Lord's Day holy- so they just don't understand why we want to keep Saturday, of all things, holy! And these are just a few of the issues we typically face in a divided home.
I love my wife, as I am sure you love your husband; so we try and accommodate. However there are some things we just can't do. You may have to make some exceptions on Shabbat since you still have children at home as well. However we cannot approach it with the wild abandon we used to. They still want to observe Christian holidays as well, along with all the accessories (trees or eggs ...). All we can do is to limit our participation and stand firm where we are convicted to do so.
I understand your focus on grace rather than the commandment to obedience. I guess all I am saying is that even within those commands to absolute obedience there is grace if we are trying and doing what we can. Christians think that grace and the Holy Spirit are New Testament manifestations of God's love for us. But I'll tell you the truth, reading what all they went through in the Old Testament, if anyone was more dependant on grace and the Ruach HaChodesh to get them through it was the Jews in the TNK, not the NT Christians (who are not even in the Bible- including Acts 11:26 which did not speak of Christians as we know them). I think we Meshiachim need an extra helping of both even today.
This post was meant to encourage you, but it is sort of depressing. Sorry. Just know that your plight is not uncommon. Hang in there, keep trying: God takes notice of your efforts and will reward you.
Revelation 2:7 (ESV) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To the one who conquers I will grant to eat of the tree of life, which is in the paradise of God.’
And there is the hope that our families may be persuaded by our example as well.
Dan C
Oh, and have a happy Thanksgiving! It's always been one of my favorite holidays, even before I was Messianic. Now it has some serious competition as I really do love the Feasts of the Lord. But it is usually the time our family gets together, and it does not violate , so it is kind of special still.
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Post by jimmie on Nov 25, 2015 9:59:49 GMT -8
Daniel was in a situation in which he could not keep all the commandments of God. He had no access to the temple as it had been destroyed. He purposed in his heart not to be defiled by the king’s meat. Was not Daniel keeping the heart of the commandments in his situation? He was close to God in spite of being in the throngs of national punishment for the disobedience of God’s Commands. Though he was cut off from sacrificing yet he obeyed. Though we are cut off from performing many acts prescribe in the commandments, we must still purpose in our heart to do what is commanded of us. Then we can be pleasing unto God just as Daniel was.
Easter was married to an unbelieving husband yet she had a heart of service and sacrifice unto the people of God.
Daniel and Ester didn’t focus on their inability and inopportunity to keep some commandments, but rather on those that they could. In so doing they not only drew closer to God but they also opened up avenues for others to draw closer to God.
Mark 9:24 And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
We should cry out, “LORD, I obey; help though my disobedience.”
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-Observsnce regarding clean and unclean as we understand it and seek to observe it. 
