cgpb
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Post by cgpb on Sept 23, 2015 8:45:49 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”
This basically means that God created mankind to be like Him – “Image” includes such characteristics as “righteousness, holiness, knowledge, an eternal nature, sense of justice etc…. Most if not all religions share the common doctrine that you have to be a good person, and do good works. Many of them even share common teachings like “Don't do unto others what you don't want others to do unto you.” (Confucious) or “Do to others what you want them to do to you” (Jesus) and many wise sayings can be found in all religions. However, what would make one more legitimate than the others. I believe it lies in the Genesis 1:26 verse. If we are made in the image of God, then clearly our good desires /longings would line up with Gods. There are 3 factors that I would like to address that testify to God being like us based on the reality of what is real and what really lies in the heart of people. These pertain to: i) Justice
ii) Longing to resurrect what you love
iii) Dimensional reality
i) Justice:
Here is an example: If somebody stole 10.000 dollars from you, you would be pretty upset about it. Now the person who stole the money from you could come and apologize and you may even forgive them. They may even bring you several boxes of chocolates in an attempt to show you they were sorry, and you may even accept those. But realistically, the only thing that would fully satisfy the injustice done to you would be for that 10.000 dollars (or more  ) to be given back to you. Saying sorry or trying to give things of far inferior value is not going to fully give you the satisfaction for the wrong or injustice done to you. In other words it becomes "like for like" and not something of inferior value to be substituted for something of superior value. Therefore, Life must atone for life. When mankind sinned against God, they robbed God of life – both for themselves and for God (because God intended to live with mankind forever). Because the life of a creature is in the blood, blood had to be given back to God to satisfy the injustice. However, this couldn’t be any blood. It had to be the blood of someone that was of the same nature as Adam before the fall. i.e human but sinless, or “like for like”. This is why animal blood or human blood wouldn’t suffice as they would be of inferior value (though animal sacrifices were used for a time until the right sacrifice). People in their wickedness and corruption expect ‘like for like’ when it comes to satisfying any injustice done to them, so what would make anyone think that an incorruptible God wouldn’t? Who are we to insult God’s integrity by implying that things of lesser value would appease His wrath against mankind’s sin? This is why the atoning death of Jesus rightfully satisfies the injustice, whereas other religions try to appease God’s wrath by things of inferior value whether those things be religious rituals, good works etc… Anyone who claims that other things apart from blood make atonement for sin, would they themselves be fully satisfied if a judge decided they were to receive a few bars of chocolate to compensate for a loss of 10.000 dollars if it had been stolen from them?
ii) Longing to resurrect what you love.
Have you ever had someone or an animal you really loved die? What was your desire or response? I bet it was that you wish there was some way of bringing them (or it) back to life, and deep down there was the desire that you could be reunited or see them again. Now if we who are corrupted and sinful humans can have this desire in us, how much more would a loving and powerful God? If you were God with the power to resurrect that which you loved most, wouldn’t you do it? iii) Dimensional realityThis has to do with the promise of a new heaven, a new earth and a new body. If one understands how dimensions operate, they will see the truth that every succeeding dimension contains the same elements as its preceding dimension plus an added element. Here is an example i) A line (length) ii) A square (length + width) iii) A cube (length +width + depth) iv) Would be a cube plus something new. (length +width +depth + ?) Again let’s take the example of a picture i) A pencil drawing of a beach ii) A colored drawing or painting of the beach iii) A photo of a the beach iv) The reality of the beach v) The reality of the beach plus something new Therefore based on the above, we can deduce that after this earth, a new earth has to exist that will be like this one but more improved and having elements that we do not see now. The same would apply to our bodies. Having a new and improved version of the body we now live in. These are just my thoughts about why Jesus satisfies the reality of what is real and tangible together with what lies in the hearts of people. If people are made in the image of God, then God would therefore naturally reveal Himself through the same longings as humans. |
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Post by jimmie on Sept 23, 2015 11:17:42 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”
Who was God referring to by "us" and "our"? |
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Post by alon on Sept 23, 2015 13:24:01 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”
Who was God referring to by "us" and "our"?
Psalm 8:5 (ESV) Yet you have made him a little lower than the heavenly beings (Or than God; Septuagint than the angels) and crowned him with glory and honor.
The Psalm is referring to Yeshua, the ultimate image of Elohim because He was both adam and God. In this case, adam as mankind was before the fall, pure and holy, dedicated to the will and works of God.
We all know that God is One:
Devarim 6:4 (OJB) Shema Yisroel Adonoi Eloheinu Adonoi Echad. (ESV) “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one (or The Lord our God is one Lord; or The Lord is our God, the Lord is one; or The Lord is our God, the Lord alone).
But even in describing that oneness, the word used is "echad", which implies a composite unity. Not just a Trinity, as YHVH has manifested Himself many times in a multitude of ways or guises throughout the TNK. Even "Elohim" is itself plural. So why refer to Himself in the plural at all if He is "One"?
I think in this case it was because of the plural nature of the work He was doing; recreating Himself in Adam and Chava many times over. As well, His knowing all things in advance, I think Elohim may have been looking forward to all those theophany's, especially the time He would invest Himself in the form of a man to atone for our sins, and thereby reconcile us to Himself; effectively making it possible for adam (mankind) to return to our spiritual state as before the fall.
The Bible is full of poetic language. This plurality could be simile, metaphor, symbolism or imagery. If this is the case, it is also prophetic- which I believe it is.
Dan C
Edit: this is just my opinion. |
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Post by alon on Sept 23, 2015 20:43:19 GMT -8
... But even in describing that oneness, the word used is "echad", which implies a composite unity. Not just a Trinity, as YHVH has manifested Himself many times in a multitude of ways or guises throughout the TNK. Even "Elohim" is itself plural. So why refer to Himself in the plural at all if He is "One"?
I think in this case it was because of the plural nature of the work He was doing; recreating Himself in Adam and Chava many times over. As well, His knowing all things in advance, I think Elohim may have been looking forward to all those theophany's, especially the time He would invest Himself in the form of a man to atone for our sins, and thereby reconcile us to Himself; effectively making it possible for adam (mankind) to return to our spiritual state as before the fall.
The Bible is full of poetic language. This plurality could be simile, metaphor, symbolism or imagery. If this is the case, it is also prophetic- which I believe it is. ... this is just my opinion.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 24, 2015 6:46:29 GMT -8
At a more basic level, perhaps there has to be a creation of a new earth simply because it has been polluted by too much blood shed.
"You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that has been shed in it, except for the blood of the one who shed it."
Numbers 35:33
I am going out on a limb here, but I think this may get into some deeper reasons about why G-d had to became a man.
Here's my logic. We can't shed blood apart from His will as He is the creator and destroyer of life. Though He is just in His shedding of blood, the final say to shed the blood is still up to Him. Though He says don't kill, He allows it as a sovereign G-d who could prevent it. Even He chooses to shed blood simply for the sake of preserving the life and goodness He created. Nevertheless, blood pollutes the land.
Perhaps as a sovereign G-d that gives us the freedom to kill, He is the only one who could make atonement for the blood we shed. He is the one responsible for the blood being shed by the nature of His sovereignty and the freedom He gave us. He is sovereign in all things. He made the system for achieving atonement. Perhaps He did so in a way that only furthers His sovereignty. He ensured that it is He that achieves atonement and accomplishes His will for goodness and life. He did so by not giving us the responsibility to do it ourselves or power not to achieve it.
We could potentially see in this verse (if I am not too far out on the limb) that He chose to be the one responsible for the atoning of sin all along as the only one who sheds the blood can atone for it, which in his sovereignty, is ultimately Him. He chose that responsibility out of love and for the sake of the goodness of life, and that is the exact picture Yeshua gives us.
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Post by alon on Sept 24, 2015 8:30:45 GMT -8
You started out with a really good premise:
At a more basic level, perhaps there has to be a creation of a new earth simply because it has been polluted by too much blood shed.
"You shall not pollute the land in which you live, for blood pollutes the land, and no atonement can be made for the land for the blood that has been shed in it, except for the blood of the one who shed it."
Numbers 35:33
[/p]
Perhaps as a sovereign G-d that gives us the freedom to kill, He is the only one who could make atonement for the blood we shed. He is the one responsible for the blood being shed by the nature of His sovereignty and the freedom He gave us. He is sovereign in all things. He made the system for achieving atonement. Perhaps He did so in a way that only furthers His sovereignty. He ensured that it is He that achieves atonement and accomplishes His will for goodness and life. He did so by not giving us the responsibility to do it ourselves or power not to achieve it.
We could potentially see in this verse (if I am not too far out on the limb) that He chose to be the one responsible for the atoning of sin all along as the only one who sheds the blood can atone for it, which in his sovereignty, is ultimately Him. He chose that responsibility out of love and for the sake of the goodness of life, and that is the exact picture Yeshua gives us.
[/quote] The way I read this, the shedding of blood is God's fault, so He had to die to atone for it. That shifts blame from us as agents of our own free will to God, because He could have stopped it. This is a dangerous place to go. God as Yeshua had to die for our sins, not for anything He did or did not do.
I think you illustrate here why this kind of thinking is prevalent in many Christian and Messianic believers. We were taught that the 5th Commandment is "Thou shalt not kill." (Ex 20:13; Deu 5:17) However a better translation is given here:
Exodus 20:13 (ESV) “You shall not murder.
The difference is that if God says here "thou shalt not kill" yet tells the Hebrews to kill everyone as the occupy the land, then at the least God is inconsistent, at worst a liar and Himself a murderer. However since it is God who creates life and He who knows men's hearts, then it is not murder if God says to do it. In the 1st case God could be said to need to shed His blood to atone for His sins; in the latter God is still sinless and so died only for our sins. Now, I know we all here, including you, think the latter is the case. However in the compartmentalized and highly Hellenized religion most of us grew up with these little inconsistencies in logic and the meaning of scripture are legion. Christianity actually trains us to overlook these things, but our minds still make the connections with often disastrous results. And saying God died because He allowed sin is only a short step from saying He sinned.
Note that I am NOT accusing you of accusing God. I am simply pointing out why we think the way we do and where it can lead. I know because I did accuse God following exactly this same path in thinking; and it caused me to fall away for a long time.
Dan C
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cgpb
New Member
Posts: 48
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Post by cgpb on Sept 24, 2015 9:04:03 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”
Who was God referring to by "us" and "our"? God is either speaking as the Creator King, announcing His crowning work to the members of His Heavenly Court or He is speaking to the other members of the Trinity - Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit who we know from other scriptures existed before all things were made, or even to both cases at the same time. Other uses of the "us" and "our" can be found in Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 1 Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, Jeremiah 23:18. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 24, 2015 9:23:34 GMT -8
Alon, I know where you are coming from as I was nervous writing the post for precisely those reasons.
It is dangerous, and I need to think on this some more to flush out my thoughts. It isn't that shedding of blood is His fault. I am thinking that it may show us a way He could choose to take the responsibility upon himself that He could do the atoning. Whatever He does is for the sake of life. He allows us to make the choice of death, but manages the consequences so it serves His purpose of life.
I don't know there just seems to be a balance that it is showing us between our guilt and His mercy. Maybe we can see that He takes upon Himself the responsibility we can't handle in the way He created the sacrificial system. He is sovereign, and under His sovereignty is life and death. I feel like maybe He didn't hand over totally responsibility of anything to us for precisely His purpose of the atonement we can't achieve. Isn't that what Yeshua did? That's why I keep thinking there may be something there. For our sake, He chose to keep and take the responsibility of life and death so that He could atone for us.
I don't know, just need to think |
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Post by jimmie on Sept 24, 2015 10:26:22 GMT -8
cgpb
Thanks
jimmie
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Post by alon on Sept 24, 2015 15:36:41 GMT -8
... It is dangerous, and I need to think on this some more to flush out my thoughts. It isn't that shedding of blood is His fault. I am thinking that it may show us a way He could choose to take the responsibility upon himself that He could do the atoning. ...
I see the difficulty In what you are wrestling with. HaShem does put limits on hasatan so that we do not destroy ourselves. And we may move the Hand of God through prayer and intercession, as well He keeps the promises He makes;so He does not just abandon us to evil, ours or others. This is why He is a God of covenant and a God who answers prayer. It is through our own actions, the keeping of the covenants, obedience, prayer ... these are what keep the human race alive. And make no mistake, the evil benefit from the prayer and actions of others. My family, for all their Baptist faults, prayed me through some pretty evil times.
He also allows things to happen for His purposes and for our ultimate good. But if yu want to figure all this out logically, in your own mind, then trust me: the answers come at a high price. Go back to basics. Trust the Word. Keep it simple:
John 3:16 (ESV) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Sept 24, 2015 16:07:34 GMT -8
Who was God referring to by "us" and "our"? God is either speaking as the Creator King, announcing His crowning work to the members of His Heavenly Court or He is speaking to the other members of the Trinity - Jesus the Son and the Holy Spirit who we know from other scriptures existed before all things were made, or even to both cases at the same time. Other uses of the "us" and "our" can be found in Genesis 3:22, 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 1 Kings 22:19-23, Job 15:8, Jeremiah 23:18.
The discussion with the "Trinity" would be more likely, if one believes God is three individuals in perfect agreement making up the Godhead. While these are the three manifestations of God at work in the "New Testament", this explanation ignores the over 2/3rds of the Bible in which God made Himself manifest to man in numerous ways and many more times. And while many of these too were either the Spirit at work, or were "Christophanies" (instances where YHVH appeared as Yeshua); the pillar of smoke and fire, the burning bush, the shekinah which filled the Holy of Holies and His presence on the Mercy Seat were no less manifestations of the One God- themselves no less God than any other manifestation. His looking forward to and seeing clearly His plan unfolding, then yes, He spoke of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, ... and the bush, and the brazier passing between the carcass halves, and on throughout His creation history in all the ways He appeared to us. This has been discussed at length in a couple of threads here, so I won't go through it all again. Suffice to say the doctrine of a Trinity severely limits God and serves to separate the TNK from the B'rit Chadasha- the old covenant from the new Greek legal document. This is not the true Messianic message.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 24, 2015 17:38:18 GMT -8
... It is dangerous, and I need to think on this some more to flush out my thoughts. It isn't that shedding of blood is His fault. I am thinking that it may show us a way He could choose to take the responsibility upon himself that He could do the atoning. ...
I see the difficulty In what you are wrestling with. HaShem does put limits on hasatan so that we do not destroy ourselves. And we may move the Hand of God through prayer and intercession, as well He keeps the promises He makes;so He does not just abandon us to evil, ours or others. This is why He is a God of covenant and a God who answers prayer. It is through our own actions, the keeping of the covenants, obedience, prayer ... these are what keep the human race alive. And make no mistake, the evil benefit from the prayer and actions of others. My family, for all their Baptist faults, prayed me through some pretty evil times.
He also allows things to happen for His purposes and for our ultimate good. But if yu want to figure all this out logically, in your own mind, then trust me: the answers come at a high price. Go back to basics. Trust the Word. Keep it simple:
John 3:16 (ESV) “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
Dan C
Fair enough. It doesn't seem much different to me than Yeshua taking the responsibility of our sin upon himself out of love because he is the only one who could overcome it. However, I do understand your point and the warning. Don't bother with the things beyond me. I admit that is sometimes hard for me.  |
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Post by alon on Sept 25, 2015 2:31:16 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”This basically means that God created mankind to be like Him – “Image” includes such characteristics as “righteousness, holiness, knowledge, an eternal nature, sense of justice etc…. ...
I used to talk online with a retired veterinarian in sven's part of the world. This man was an atheist who married a Muslim. I am most definitely not an atheist, who was married to a Jew. We had some interesting, if sometimes heated discussions. He always countered any arguments I gave him for a caring God with the question "Why would God care about us? We are nothing but problems!" One day it came to me, and I asked him if he had pets. Sadly he immediately went offline and never spoke to me again.
God cares. I really don't know why, but I know He does because I care about that dog. I am made in the image of God. Pretty kewl, huh ... ?
Dan C
Zephaniah 3:17 (ESV) The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save;
he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 25, 2015 5:44:20 GMT -8
Genesis 1:26 says: “Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness…….”This basically means that God created mankind to be like Him – “Image” includes such characteristics as “righteousness, holiness, knowledge, an eternal nature, sense of justice etc…. ...
I used to talk online with a retired veterinarian in sven's part of the world. This man was an atheist who married a Muslim. I am most definitely not an atheist, who was married to a Jew. We had some interesting, if sometimes heated discussions. He always countered any arguments I gave him for a caring God with the question "Why would God care about us? We are nothing but problems!" One day it came to me, and I asked him if he had pets. Sadly he immediately went offline and never spoke to me again.
God cares. I really don't know why, but I know He does because I care about that dog. I am made in the image of God. Pretty kewl, huh ... ?
Dan C
Zephaniah 3:17 (ESV) The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save;
he will rejoice over you with gladness; he will quiet you by his love; he will exult over you with loud singing.
I get this. I find animals absolutely delightful. There is something soothing and joyful about how perfect they are at being what they were made to be. When my dog makes me laugh and reminds me to slow down just to pet him, there is a lot of life in that moment. I think maybe it is because they live so in the moment. Anyway, I understand what you are saying. G-d cares because He not only loves life; He remembers what He made it to be and He enjoys it. Animals have a way of helping us slow down and feel that. |
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) to be given back to you. Saying sorry or trying to give things of far inferior value is not going to fully give you the satisfaction for the wrong or injustice done to you.
- there are 70 faces to 
