Merging of Christianity and Judaism

[alon]

Jun 20, 2015 22:38:08 GMT -8 ontop said:

say to the People of the Book ( and Bible) , "We must come to a common term. Let us worship no one except God, nor consider anything equal to Him, nor regard any of us as our Lord besides God." However, if they turn away from , tell them, "Bear witness that we have submitted ourselves to the will of God."

As I have testified that you took Yeshua as a full deity next to God. You will testify that I take no deity except The One Supreme God.

Are you quoting something here, or are you just trying to write in the same prosaic style as the Quran is written in? Makes a difference in how I answer. For the record, speaking clearly is easier to understand and reply to.

Common term- we have many terms for the same God, given to us by God Himself. Not one of those terms is "Allah". This term doesn't come up for hundreds of years until made popular by a highwayman and a brigand; a kidnaper, serial rapist and murderer, a child molester and, oh yes, a prophet- Muhammad. This person nor his god have any part in our faith nor in heaven to come. This is what I testify Islam worships; a false god, a demon. Come out of this religion now. We can help you. if you are willing. We'll answer your questions and show you the way to a better faith. Work with us.

Dan C

[ontop]

This is the typical response from someone who tries to ( كافر cover) up his truth and at the same time deny God his absolute rule.
Cursing is that all you got
No answer regarding your contradicting articles of faith.

[alon]

Jun 21, 2015 1:25:19 GMT -8 ontop said:

This is the typical response from someone who tries to ( كافر cover) up his truth and at the same time deny God his absolute rule.
Cursing is that all you got
No answer regarding your contradicting articles of faith.

Typical response- I bet you do get that a lot. However since no one here cursed at you I would suggest you amend your prepackaged response there. You accuse us of covering up, when clearly we've offered to answer any real questions. We do however refuse to accede to your demon-god's rule.

Since your reason to be here seems to be to teach, or to try to us into listening to tour teachings, and having been given warnings about this, I am closing your account here. You may no longer post.

Discussion will be left open for anyone who wishes to talk about Islam.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

Not much to say except this conversation had nothing to do with learning or understanding. I will say that people who think they understand G-d so well they know what he can't do are guilty of doing exactly what they accuse us of doing, while over-estimating the parameters of their own wisdom. If you don't believe in a loving G-d, Yeshua will never make sense. If you believe in a loving G-d, then you can believe his love is limitless.

[alon]

Jun 21, 2015 6:30:47 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Not much to say except this conversation had nothing to do with learning or understanding. I will say that people who think they understand G-d so well they know what he can't do are guilty of doing exactly what they accuse us of doing, while over-estimating the parameters of their own wisdom. If you don't believe in a loving G-d, Yeshua will never make sense. If you believe in a loving G-d, then you can believe his love is limitless.

Oh, I don't know: I thought I gave some thoughtful, informative posts. And jimmie gave a good response as well. But I suppose you're right- learning and understanding is a two way effort. Nothing says we can't still talk about it though. So, does anyone here think we mix Christianity and Judaism?

There are certainly some who do this and call it Messianism. Are these a form of Messianism or some other religious expression?

Does anyone here do this?

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

I suppose on some level, those of us raised in Christianity can't really help but do this, especially when Messianic teachers are few and far between and we are often in families that aren't necessarily on board with us yet.....

[alon]

I came across something yedidyah once said:

Because G-d appeared to them at the Red Sea as a mighty warrior, at Sinai as a sage teaching , in the days of Solomon as a handsome lad and in the times of Daniel as a compassionate old man, G-d said to them: Just because you perceive Me in many guises, do not think that there are many gods; rather, it is I who was at the sea, I who was at Sinai, I who is in every place -- "I am G-d your G-d."

(Midrash Tanchuma)

If we are going to "mix with Judaism" then, I suppose, this would be relevant. True in any event- God is God is God, however and whenever He wishes to interact with us. And He does so in the appropriate guise to both be relevant to the times and problem(s) He is addressing and to reveal part of His character to us in terms we can understand. My God is not as Allah, constrained by the imagination of a single prophet bent on legitimizing his own hatred and excesses. Indeed, that God chooses to interact at times through prophets doesn't mean He needs them to accomplish His message and goals. And His prophets are never self serving. In fact, in Israel false prophets were stoned; which would have certainly been the fate of Muhammed. Too bad he wasn't in Israel in the times of the TNK.

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

We also know we cannot behold him in all his glory, nevertheless we have a G-d who wants to be with us. So he gives us what we need when we need it and thats the foundation of the relationship. A cloud by day, a fire by night kind of says it all for me.

[garrett]

The Christianity I was familiar with (and a part of) has become more and more foreign to me as time goes by. Even the little things really bother me. Maybe they are big things (?) I cannot understand the holidays! What are we thinking?? Church on Sunday, what? Ham on Easter? Has the whole world gone crazy? The word "church" in the New Testament? As if there were churches in the middle of the first century. The words that were penned by Martin Luther, etc.

This may sound a bit off topic but I don't see any effort to merge Christianity and Judaism here. This seems more of a place where some people try to shed one and grab onto a bit of the other. We still have the influence and background of Christianity but also reach towards something better. Frankly, I've had it with Christianity - not with Christians themselves (I don't judge anyone). Christianity has produced more martyrs in the past 100 years than in all of its history, and changed the lives and future of people. I just don't like the teaching and the common assumption that it is the be all and end of all things leading to G-d.

It's early. Hope I'm making sense.

[alon]

Jun 23, 2015 2:49:46 GMT -8 garrett said:

It's early. Hope I'm making sense.

Makes perfect sense; well said!

I don't find either Christians or Jews or even secular "sciences" to be all wrong. However, as I've said many times, everything they teach must pass through the fire, be examined in detail and survive scrutiny against before I'll accept it. I don't simply borrow from any of it to come up with something new. It would be impossible to escape the influences of what we've been taught. However in returning to a faith which has been for all intents and purposes dead for 1500 years we must retrain our thinking on everything we do know. And instead of cherry picking what we want to keep, we actively discard or radically change that which we find false. There is a huge difference in the two which contemporary Christians, Jews and secular society have a hard time grasping. As for Islam, they simply hate anyone who doesn't accept their way, including other Muslims who think differently. Any agreement there is purely accidental.

We, or at least I do borrow some from Judaism. observance is fairly new to me, and they've been doing it for 3500 years. So instead of reinventing the wheel I do borrow from them. Furthermore I am grafted onto their rootstalk, made an adoptive heir to the promises by the same God that formed Avraham's seed into His own nation. This doesn't mean I follow the tennets of Rabbinical Judaism, many of which are man made and not Biblical. Nor do I throw these out simply because they are Rabbinical. They pass through the fire, and if I find value in them, I keep them or I modify them to fit my beliefs. Nor do I throw out what I learned in Christianity just because it is Christian. My father was a Hell-Fire-and-Brimstone Southern Baptist preacher; one of the best- and I am (in case anyone missed it) a Zealot, which would be the Pharisaic equivalent. And even science, true science, points to the awesome power, majesty and creativity of God. I do reject most of what is taught and portrayed in the media, their findings being predetermined and motivated by lucrative political grants. Furthermore, much of what I now believe is not found in any of these religions (and yes, popular science has taken on the mantle of a religion as well).

So yes, there is some agreement in what I believe and other faiths. I may even keep or borrow some from other religions. But there is a huge difference in searching for the truth in these commonalities and keeping what passes the test, as opposed to just picking what I want from these belief systems, mixing them up and making my own religion. The Messianic movement is an attempt to faithfully return to the practices and beliefs of the 1st Cen believers- the faith of the apostles and of Yeshua Himself. In this we do not simply "borrow"; we examine, understand, and adopt what is true, wherever we find it.

Dan c

[dzm]

Elizabeth,
I think the answer to your question may be, "it depends"?

It seems Judaism fundamentally rejects that HaMashiach has come as Yeshua-- and it does not matter whether one believes in G-d as a "unified plurality" [like me] or believes in a Sabellian G-d.

As far as merging Judaism and Christianity into the tenets espoused by UMJA members?  This has personally been a tougher question for me to examine [and I am still pondering it ever since first hearing about this belief on this website].  Do I believe observance is good?-- yes.  Do I believe G-d is One? -- yes.  Do I believe G-d reveals Himself in Yeshua as a manifestation?  -- no.  Am I absolutely certain that G-d does not accept people who believe that Yeshua is a manifestation of Himself? -- no.

Alon speaks of adopting that which "passes through the fire"-- which is a very practical concept.  I think HaShem prevents anyone from having all the truth.

So based on my studies so far, it seems like the UMJA tends to be more like Judaism while the MJAA tends to be more like Judaism and Christianity.  To me, a big question is whether groups like the UMJA and MJAA can co-exist?

[alon]

Jun 23, 2015 20:38:45 GMT -8 dzm said:

It seems Judaism fundamentally rejects that HaMashiach has come as Yeshua-- and it does not matter whether one believes in G-d as a "unified plurality" [like me] or believes in a Sabellian G-d.

Sabelianism can carry connotations of a created Yeshua; a doctrine that I firmly reject. YHVH is eternal, from everlasting to everlasting (Psalm 41:13, 90:2, 100:5, 103:17, 106:48). And since every manifestation of God IS God, all manifestations are themselves eternal; none are created in the sense of their not having been eternally preexistant.

The term is not technically wrong I suppose, since Sabelianism is not really well understood even by scholars (I had to look it up, and found some disagreement). But I wouldn't want anyone to get the wrong impression about what I believe if their understanding was it meant a created Yeshua. The physical body of Yeshua was obviously created- even Trinitarians would have to agree to that, though I suspect it would make them uncomfortable to think about it. However the Spirit or part of God that inhabited that body was in no sense created.

Part of the problem is that all the theological terms we have for beliefs of who God is were coined by Christianity. They really have no term for what Meshiachim believe, as they have no understanding of us. Sabellianism, Modalism, Monarchianism (dynamic and modalistic), and Patripassianism were the beliefs they debated at different times and rejected when they accepted Trinitarianism; and these are where they try to pigeon-hole us. All these carry ideas I and most Messianics reject as false.

As far as merging Judaism and Christianity into the tenets espoused by UMJA members?  This has personally been a tougher question for me to examine [and I am still pondering it ever since first hearing about this belief on this website].  Do I believe observance is good?-- yes.  Do I believe G-d is One? -- yes.  Do I believe G-d reveals Himself in Yeshua as a manifestation?  -- no.  Am I absolutely certain that G-d does not accept people who believe that Yeshua is a manifestation of Himself? -- no.

It is an extremely tough question. I've said here before that I don't absolutely disbelieve in the possibility of a Trinity. I don't think it is the case, however my position is that we cannot fully understand God and to package Him so neatly and thus place limits on an infinite God seems wrong to me; especially when the Bible tells us of so many more ways He was made manifest to us. I believe God is One, because He said He is One (Deu 6:4). I also believe He is some form of composite unity, as the term "echad" implies. However to take that idea and make it to mean three separate "Persons of a Godhead" starts to leave the realm of composite unity and move towards polytheism. While I'll admit to the possibility, as I make no claim to fully understand God (Rom 11:33-36), it does make me uncomfortable. I simply believe that God is One, and He interacts with us as He sees fit- but always as eternal God.

Alon speaks of adopting that which "passes through the fire"-- which is a very practical concept.  I think HaShem prevents anyone from having all the truth.

To fully understand God, you'd have to be God. Anyone making that claim before the return of Yeshua (when there will be no doubt, no room for equivocation) is a demoniac; possessed by a petty god with delusions of grandeur. I may be crazy, but I make no claims to fully understand God.

So based on my studies so far, it seems like the UMJA tends to be more like Judaism while the MJAA tends to be more like Judaism and Christianity.  To me, a big question is whether groups like the UMJA and MJAA can co-exist?

If by coexist you mean reconcile their beliefs concerning the Godhead, I'd ask why they need to do so? If either camp is going to Hell because they have a wrong idea of God, then they and we are all in trouble. That I don't believe in the idea of Three Members of a Godhead doesn't mean I don't call them brothers. It just means we are becoming more Jewish, as now we have something to really argue about! Seriously, as long as they are worshiping the One true God of Yisrael, the specifics of how they view Him aren't an insurmountable obstacle to fellowship for me. If they start making statues of Yeshua and worshiping just that, or statues of doves or paintings of a Fatherly hand reaching from the clouds which they venerate and worship, then we would have a problem. If they say Yeshua was created wholly at the immaculate conception or at any other time, then we'd also have problems. But to my knowledge the MJAA does none of this. They simply hold to a Trinitarian view of God. I think they are probably wrong, but I do not believe this means they are not fellow believers and heirs to the promise. But that's just me. I'm sure there are some who don't hold this view, and so be it. If the only Messianic synagogue I could get to was an MJAA affiliated synagogue, I'd go there. I don't have to believe everything they tell me, but I would be grateful for the fellowship of Messianic believers.

Dan C

[Questor]

Jun 24, 2015 9:01:50 GMT -8 alon said:

Part of the problem is that all the theological terms we have for beliefs of who God is were coined by Christianity. They really have no term for what Meshiachim believe, as they have no understanding of us. Sabellianism, Modalism, Monarchianism (dynamic and modalistic), and Patripassianism were the beliefs they debated at different times and rejected when they accepted Trinitarianism; and these are where they try to pigeon-hole us. All these carry ideas I and most Messianics reject as false.

As far as merging Judaism and Christianity into the tenets espoused by UMJA members?  This has personally been a tougher question for me to examine [and I am still pondering it ever since first hearing about this belief on this website].  Do I believe observance is good?-- yes.  Do I believe G-d is One? -- yes.  Do I believe G-d reveals Himself in Yeshua as a manifestation?  -- no.  Am I absolutely certain that G-d does not accept people who believe that Yeshua is a manifestation of Himself? -- no.

It is an extremely tough question. I've said here before that I don't absolutely disbelieve in the possibility of a Trinity. I don't think it is the case, however my position is that we cannot fully understand God and to package Him so neatly and thus place limits on an infinite God seems wrong to me; especially when the Bible tells us of so many more ways He was made manifest to us. I believe God is One, because He said He is One (Deu 6:4). I also believe He is some form of composite unity, as the term "echad" implies. However to take that idea and make it to mean three separate "Persons of a Godhead" starts to leave the realm of composite unity and move towards polytheism. While I'll admit to the possibility, as I make no claim to fully understand God (Rom 11:33-36), it does make me uncomfortable. I simply believe that God is One, and He interacts with us as He sees fit- but always as eternal God.

Alon speaks of adopting that which "passes through the fire"-- which is a very practical concept.  I think HaShem prevents anyone from having all the truth.

To fully understand God, you'd have to be God. Anyone making that claim before the return of Yeshua (when there will be no doubt, no room for equivocation) is a demoniac; possessed by a petty god with delusions of grandeur. I may be crazy, but I make no claims to fully understand God.

So based on my studies so far, it seems like the UMJA tends to be more like Judaism while the MJAA tends to be more like Judaism and Christianity.  To me, a big question is whether groups like the UMJA and MJAA can co-exist?

If by coexist you mean reconcile their beliefs concerning the Godhead, I'd ask why they need to do so? If either camp is going to Hell because they have a wrong idea of God, then they and we are all in trouble. That I don't believe in the idea of Three Members of a Godhead doesn't mean I don't call them brothers. It just means we are becoming more Jewish, as now we have something to really argue about! Seriously, as long as they are worshiping the One true God of Yisrael, the specifics of how they view Him aren't an insurmountable obstacle to fellowship for me. If they start making statues of Yeshua and worshiping just that, or statues of doves or paintings of a Fatherly hand reaching from the clouds which they venerate and worship, then we would have a problem. If they say Yeshua was created wholly at the immaculate conception or at any other time, then we'd also have problems. But to my knowledge the MJAA does none of this. They simply hold to a Trinitarian view of God. I think they are probably wrong, but I do not believe this means they are not fellow believers and heirs to the promise. But that's just me. I'm sure there are some who don't hold this view, and so be it. If the only Messianic synagogue I could get to was an MJAA affiliated synagogue, I'd go there. I don't have to believe everything they tell me, but I would be grateful for the fellowship of Messianic believers.

Dan C

The problem with Trinitarianism and fellowshiping at an assembly from MJAA is the very Christian nature of the people attending.  They have not yet shrugged off all the pagan parts of their belief, and narrowed their focus down to YHVH, acting wherever and whenever as He pleases...In Yeshua, extending His Ruach into the Universe to connect with all those who believe, or in any other way He chooses.

I do believe them saved, and walking in as much of the as they know to do, just as I am and do, but the conversations would get tense as soon as you said that Yeshua was not/is not/will not always be seperate from the Father, nor is the Ruach, as the Ruach continually emanates from G-d, and always has.

Trinitarian concepts of their nature prescribe 3 equal gods, and I only see 3 unevenly equal parts of a single G-d...not even parts even, more like peripherals in a computer system...Main Frame, Blu-Tooth signal output/receiver, and dockable Laptop?

It makes problems for serious conversation because they frankly are not yet Jewish enough in their thought process.  However, I have no doubt they will edge in that direction simply as the Ruach moves upon them.

[alon]

Jul 10, 2015 15:15:31 GMT -8 Questor said:

Jun 24, 2015 9:01:50 GMT -8 alon said:

The problem with Trinitarianism and fellowshiping at an assembly from MJAA is the very Christian nature of the people attending. They have not yet shrugged off all the pagan parts of their belief, and narrowed their focus down to YHVH, acting wherever and whenever as He pleases...In Yeshua, extending His Ruach into the Universe to connect with all those who believe, or in any other way He chooses.

I do believe them saved, and walking in as much of the as they know to do, just as I am and do, but the conversations would get tense as soon as you said that Yeshua was not/is not/will not always be seperate from the Father, nor is the Ruach, as the Ruach continually emanates from G-d, and always has.

Trinitarian concepts of their nature prescribe 3 equal gods, and I only see 3 unevenly equal parts of a single G-d...not even parts even, more like peripherals in a computer system ... It makes problems for serious conversation because they frankly are not yet Jewish enough in their thought process. However, I have no doubt they will edge in that direction simply as the Ruach moves upon them.

Perhaps association with we who believe in an infinite God extending His presence as He sees fit will help move them in the proper direction. I used to be a staunch Trinitarian, even when I first came to Messianism. And I still fellowship with Trinitarians at the AoG where I'll be with my wife in a couple of hours: although that fellowship does have definite limits. Would the AoG alone or the MJAA be my first choice for fellowship? No, but when all I had available was the AoG that is where I fellowshipped. We are told not to desert the body of believers:

Hebrews 10:23-25 (ESV) Let us hold fast the confession of our hope without wavering, for he who promised is faithful. And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.

This is because we were never meant to travel this path alone. We need the support and encouragement of others. I also need a weekly infusion of the truth if I am to sit under doctrines which are mostly good, but which also contain falsehoods. Coming here helps, as does going to Synagogue on Shabbat. Researching the par'shah's also helps. I'll admit, I am a little lax on the B'rith Chadashah portions. But I was raised on mostly the "New Testament." I long to solidify my base in . Probably I should read more in the Kethuvai Shelachim especially, but ... is that wrong of me to concentrate my limited time to mostly ? And is it wrong to fellowship with Christians and MJ's who believe differently than me?

One of the points made at the UMJA conference was that at the time of Yeshua and the apostles, Yisro'el was filled with sects who, when they prayed for deliverance were not praying against the enemy or pagans, but for protection from other Jews who did not believe as they did! I pray for discernment, and deliverance from true evil; but not from anyone anywhere who genuinely searches out God's truth. When my wife wanted to take some Moody courses, I didn't tell her Moody was wrong. I encouraged her to take the courses. And guess what? I learned some things just from talking to her, looking at her reference books, and just being on the periphery.

So if you can find a fellowship which can accept you and respects your differences (as you must theirs), then if that is all you have, I say go there. But search out the truth in all things, praying for discernment. Everyone at the AoG knows who I am and where my beliefs are. I don't proselytize or tell them they are wrong, unless they ask. Then I'll respectfully answer their questions.

Dan C