ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 19, 2015 1:14:15 GMT -8
Hi everyone
My first question is this concept a merge of Judaism and Christianity ?
And if not why
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Post by alon on Jun 19, 2015 4:21:34 GMT -8
My first question is this concept a merge of Judaism and Christianity ? And if not why
Messianic Judaism is its own entity, a sect of Judaism proper. This is how it was viewed in the first century CE by Judaism until the Third Jewish Revolt and the subsequent defeat by Rome. Rabbi Akiva declared Bar Kochba, the leader of that rebellion to be the Messiah, and everyone was required to acknowledge him so. The early Meshiachim, then called the Nots'rim, could not do this, and so were forced out. They fled to Pella, as they had been instructed to do by Yeshua in His prophecy of the destruction of the Temple:
Luke 21:20-24 (ESV) Jesus Foretells Destruction of Jerusalem
20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are inside the city depart, and let not those who are out in the country enter it, 22 for these are days of vengeance, to fulfill all that is written. 23 Alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! For there will be great distress upon the earth and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. (see also Matthew 24:15–22; Mark 13:14–20).
So they survived. They were unjustly blamed for the subsequent defeat by Rome and the destruction of Jerusalem. It was at this point that the Jews who did not believe in Yeshua stopped considering the Meshiachim as part of Judaism. The Amidah was modified to call a curse on Meshiachim and anyone not saying this curse was exposed as either an Essene or as Nots'rim, and were forcibly removed from fellowship. Until this time the Nots'rim were allowed to worship with the Jews as any other sect.
What we as Meshiachim are doing is to revive the faith as those of the first cen CE believers practiced it; a sect of Judaism which holds Yeshua as HaMoshiach. This is the faith of the apostles and early believers which was by the accounts of the church fathers themselves a completely separate entity through at least the sixth cen CE when they were apparently finally wiped out by the church.
It should be noted that the early Christian church had nothing to do with these early Meshiachim; they hated them in fact, as they did all of Judaism. The writings of the church fathers overwhelmingly bears this out. The church was entirely pagan, and their pagan practices exist even today in both Catholicism and Protestantism. We (Meshiachim) are completely separated from the Christian church, and the Jews still hold us to be completely separated from their own religion. Therefore we have our own synagogues, just as the early Nots'rim did after 70 CE. We hold to Jewish practices, not Christian; although not being of Rabbinic Judaism we do not necessarily hold with all the mitzvoth handed down by Rabbis over the last 2000 years (we don't automatically discount these either just because they are Rabbinic).
Unlike Christianity, we believe the entire Bible is still valid, nothing having been done away with by Yeshua. And unlike Judaism, we hold the Brith Chadashah (New Testament) to be valid and Yeshua to be HaMoshiach. Many (most) Meshiachim, while holding the Protestant Bible to be true, also find instruction in the Apochriphal books, Talmud, and other religious documents. We read all these with discernment, seeking in all the truth, and using  as the definitive benchmark in everything. We do not change scripture, but we do look for errors in translation (of which there are many) as well as errors in what we were taught scripture meant. As I said, we seek the truth in everything.
So modern Meshiachim, just as 1st through 6th cen CE Nots'rim, are our own entity and not a combination of Judaism and Christianity or any other religions. We do find truth and agreement in both these religions, however every belief we hold is passed trough the fire many times and only what stands the test and remains true is kept. It is inevitable that some tennets from both religions are in agreement with Messianism as both are Biblically based (if somewhat loosely). However there are many, many errors in both as well. We come to those tennets from reading and researching scripture, not by cherry-picking what we want from other religions or sects/denominations. And I'd say most of what they teach is rejected by us as false. We may even agree with some of what Buddahism or Islam teaches. This by no means indicates we believe in those religions or that we used them to develop our own belief system. In every lie there must be an element of the truth to make it plausible, and these religions are lies of the enemy. We repudiate all these religions as false. We are our own separate entity, having our own tennets and understanding of scripture as handed down by Judaism; including the B'rit Chadashah which many of us believe was originaly written in Hebrew, by Jews for other Jews and proselytes to Messianic Judaism.
Hope this brief overview helps.
Dan C |
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Post by alon on Jun 19, 2015 5:23:37 GMT -8
As a separate note. I should tell you that there are many religions out there which try to fly the Messianic flag, but which are absolutely synagogues of ha satan. Some of these are:
Ebionits- the primary tennate that marks these people is the denial of the diety of Yeshua. This was a group which split off from the Not'srim in the late first cen CE. Many (but not all) ebionites also redact scripture to show God only as a God of love, believing that in the end all men and angels will be reconciled to God. They remove His anger and His justice from scripture.
Cults- there are many cults who claim to be Messianic but are not. A lot of these are sexually perverted, often practicing bigamy. Others focus just on isolation and control of its membership, just like may other cults.
Hebrew Roots- while most HR groups don't claim to be Messianic, many do. HR is characterized by the belief that Christianity has its roots in Judaism. As pointed out earlier, it does not. Christianity is and always was entirely pagan. Many in HR believe they can reconcile Christianity and Judaism, an assumption that most Meshiachim hold to be false. There is a lot in HR which does agree with Messianism, however there is a lot of false doctrine there as well.
Light- there are a whole lot of "messianic" groups (in name only) which allow their members to pick out what parts of they want to keep. True Messiachim believe that every word inspired by HaShem is valid, means what it says and is incumbent on us today as it was when first authored. We do not get to choose what we will do and what part of the Word we just don't want to do.
Hebrew Protestantism- really a part of HR and/or Lght, this is a large enough group with some distinctive features to warrant its own category. Essentially, these are groups which still hold to the tennets of the faith they were in, usually one of the Protestant denominations; but they dress it up with Hebrew terms and try to sell it as Messianism.
Judaizers- some still teach that one must convert to Judaism, then come to the saving grace of Yeshua. Absolutely false.
Legalists- those who teach we are savedby keeping . Again false. We do believe if one is saved they will want to keep the instructions of Elohim, but salvation comes first and keeping the Law is not a prerequisite for salvation.
The Eastern Orthodox Church- some of these call themselves Messianic in order to draw Meshiachim away and into their religion. These people claim to have the direct line of "Apostolic Succession" (just as the Roman Catholic Church doe) and so the authority to interpret scripture and to change the moedim, Gods appointed times; the feasts of the Lord. Not Messianic, they are purely a pagan religion. But they sell the lie well.
These are just a few, and I am sure there will be some disagreement even on this forum as there are some whose beliefs fall into one or more of the categories I describe. We've lost members because we do not compromise the truth. This is  , because we do recognize that everyone is at their own place in coming to Observant Messianism. It is a tough transition to make, and many balk for a while at different parts of the Messianic Judaic beliefs. There are no Police here who, as in Islam publically cane or kill those not in strict compliance. We do prevent their teaching against a Observant lifestyle, however we will allow them to tell where they are at and why the difficulty (if any) in moving forward. This is so we can help them and possibly others in the same dilemma, not so we can all just get stuck there as well. We are reviving a belief system that was effectively wiped out by the sixth cen CE, and so all of us have a lot to learn yet. Mistakes are inevitable, however we press forward again relating everything to and passing it through the fire.
True Meshiachm have been called out to worship El Elyon as and when He said. We are also called to rightly discern scripture, doing away with the false teachings which permeate all other religions, especially Christianity. We are grafted onto a Jewish rootstalk, and therefore our form of worship is primarily Jewish. However we eschew many of the tennets of Rabbinical Judaism. We believe in Yeshua as HaMoshiach, the anointed One of God who takes away the sins of all who trust in Him. We believe in the full diety of Yeshua, while still holding to the statement “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one." (Deuteronomy 6:4 ESV).
Dan C
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ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 19, 2015 7:33:08 GMT -8
Dan you have poured in lots of info that I need to research and understand. And for that I thank you.
But the nature of full deity concept is perplexing to me when at the same time The All Mighty Is my only G-D.
Do you see or understand point
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Post by jimmie on Jun 19, 2015 9:18:52 GMT -8
Ex 34:2 And he received them at their hand, and fashioned it with a graving tool, after he had made it a molten calf: and they said, These be thy gods, O Israel, which brought thee up out of the land of Egypt.
The blending of Jewish tradition and Christian tradition would be fashioning our own god/religion as was done with the molten calf. And thus would not be pleaseing to God.
Our goal is simply:
Deut 5:32 Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you: ye shall not turn aside to the right hand or to the left.
Deut 28:14 And thou shalt not go aside from any of the words which I command thee this day, to the right hand, or to the left, to go after other gods to serve them.
Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
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ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 19, 2015 10:48:02 GMT -8
Jesus never disdained the worship of God nor did the nearest angels to God. Whoever, out of pride, disdains the worship of God should know that everyone will be brought before Him.
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Post by alon on Jun 19, 2015 11:56:44 GMT -8
Dan you have poured in lots of info that I need to research and understand. And for that I thank you. But the nature of full deity concept is perplexing to me when at the same time The All Mighty Is my only G-D. Do you see or understand point
Deuteronomy 6:4-15 (KJV) Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord:
This is at the core of our belief in God. However we are told of many different ways in which God has manifested Himself to us. First as Spirit in the creation account as He moved across the face of the earth. Others as physical objects as when He went between the split carcasses as a brazier. God later appeared as a messenger in the form of a man to Abraham. He also came as the Son, joining Himself physically to Israel as a man, Yeshua.
He concentrated His entire essence on the Mercy Seat in the Mishkan (Tabernacle) and the Temple, and yet the sages tell us His entire presence could simultaneously not be contained by the universe. Colossians 1:17 (ESV) "And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together." So even as Yeshua walked the earth, the universe did not fall apart because God was there, everywhere, filling it with His glory.
Isaiah 66:1-2a (ESV) Thus says the Lord: “Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest? All these things my hand has made, and so all these things came to be, declares the Lord.
He appeared as smoke and fire as He led the Hebrews out of Egypt, and again on Mt. Sinai. Yet again His Spirit is represented by tongues of fire at Pentecost. In fact, there are many theophany's in the Bible; places where God physically appeared to us; sometimes as a man as with Avraham, others as an angel as when He wrestled with Yoseph. Yet He was still God, still on His heavenly throne. In all these theophany's He was fully God, yet still on the throne of the universe holding all together. So when looked at it from this perspective it is not so difficult to see that God placed a part of Himself in the person of Yeshua, which means Yeshua was God incarnate, Emanuel, God with us. We must remember we are talking about not just a god, but THE God; the One who is the very embodiment of infinity; the God who can do anything. This includes placing a part of Himself in human form to walk with us as a man.
Yeshua existed here on earth as fully God as the Father in heaven. I and many Meshiachim believe when the Bible speaks of the Father and the Son it is speaking allegorically, giving us terms which we can understand to describe the relationship. This is the same when it speaks of the Ruach HaChodesh (Holy Spirit). After all, the Father Himself is Spirit:
John 4:24 (ESV) "God is spirit, and those who worship him must worship in spirit and truth.”
Dan C
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ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 20, 2015 6:20:01 GMT -8
I must say Dan thank you again for taking the time to pour out your thoughts like that
To me it shows sincerity and even if I still believe in Yeshua as a spirit from the realm of the creator and his word thrown into Maryam and all his deeds are performed by Gods permission he was still a great human in nature .
But to me I would say He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
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Post by alon on Jun 20, 2015 9:11:55 GMT -8
I must say Dan thank you again for taking the time to pour out your thoughts like that To me it shows sincerity and even if I still believe in Yeshua as a spirit from the realm of the creator and his word thrown into Maryam and all his deeds are performed by Gods permission he was still a great human in nature . But to me I would say He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him.
Here we believe Allah to be a false god. You may ask questions about our faith, though you may not like the answers. But if you seek the truth, we will tell it to you. Please understand that you may not teach Islam here.
Dan C |
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ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 20, 2015 9:33:42 GMT -8
Where did he say I am the Lord your God so bow down and worship me. Dan this was told to Mosses by God not another.
You can understand if you want I am sure.
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Post by alon on Jun 20, 2015 9:48:12 GMT -8
Where did he say I am the Lord your God so bow down and worship me. Dan this was told to Mosses by God not another. You can understand if you want I am sure.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jun 20, 2015 10:41:25 GMT -8
The itself testifies to who he said he is. He was tried and crucified according to it. |
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Post by ontop on Jun 20, 2015 11:31:18 GMT -8
People of the Book, do not exceed the limits of devotion in your religion or say anything about God which is not the Truth. Jesus, son of Mary, is only a Messenger of God, His Word, and a spirit from Him whom He conveyed to Mary. So have faith in God and His Messengers. Do not say that there are three gods. It is better for you to stop believing in the Trinity. There is only One God. He is too glorious to give birth to a son. To God belongs all that is in the heavens and the earth. God alone is a Sufficient Guardian for all.
I testify here and in the here after that I have written to you about the truth and on that I am a witness.
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Post by alon on Jun 20, 2015 19:52:05 GMT -8
Just to clarify, the "Book" you are referring to is the Bible; 66 books from Genesis to Revelation. Correct?We strive to do so, yes.Here with the word "only" you are going afoul of the rules. In future such things should be put up as a question. Absolute statements such as this are teaching doctrines that go against the Statement of Faith (see excerpt at bottom).
Had you read my reply's more carefully, you'd have known we do not believe in three gods. That is polytheism, which we renounce vehemently. The Trinity, God in Three Persons, is a Christian concept; and even they find (inadequate) ways to unify God in their doctrine. Again, testifying that you write the truth is teaching. Below is an excerpt from our rules. Please review them;
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ontop
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Post by ontop on Jun 20, 2015 22:38:08 GMT -8
say to the People of the Book ( and Bible) , "We must come to a common term. Let us worship no one except God, nor consider anything equal to Him, nor regard any of us as our Lord besides God." However, if they turn away from , tell them, "Bear witness that we have submitted ourselves to the will of God." As I have testified that you took Yeshua as a full deity next to God. You will testify that I take no deity except The One Supreme God. |
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- there are 70 faces to 
, because we do recognize that everyone is at their own place in coming to 
