SUBTITLE: "DID YESHUA (JESUS) START A NEW RELIGION?"

[johnd]

The subtitle of this forum is of utmost importance.

Is a religion what God had in mind at any point in history? Or was he by giving us the Law of Moses not giving us a religion that was impossible for us to keep? Making the point that religion is not the answer.

[Elizabeth]

No, religion is not what G-d had in mind, and isn't religion.  What do you think He had in mind when He gave ?  I want to make sure I understand what you are suggesting.

[alon]

Moderator note: after reviewing johndbaptist's posts, most of them have been attacks on observance. This thread is another thinly disguised effort to discredit the Law of Moses. Having warned him previously, and due to this and most importantly other recent anti- activity, he has been banned. Therefore he will not be responding.

From the forum rules:

1. This is a Messianic Observant forum for those who are Jewish, and also for those from the Nations, who are coming to know The Messiah Yeshua (Jesus). This forum is designed to be a place where sincere seekers may come and grow and learn more about a Messianic Jewish observant life in a safe environment. All those who register for this forum should support this goal, or at the very least shouldn't act in ways that would undermine this mission.

6. Anti- observant missionaries will not be tolerated. If you have a honest question about a scripture passage that seems to be in contradiction to a pursuant faith, and would like to have an answer from us in regards to how we view it, we are happy to answer your questions and search the scriptures with you. And although this is a place where you can have your questions answered regarding a pursuant faith in Yeshua The Messiah...it is not a place to pro-actively teach anti- observance. Violators of this rule will be warned openly on the forum and repeat offenders will have their forum account suspended.

Dan C

[azaliah]

Anti- observant missionaries will not be tolerated.

Thats silly, and Anti- observant Christian missionary. Thats like saying and anti-tire car, or an anti-wing airplane.

They would only have to read those Gideon New-Testament Only books, which would be like reading The return of the king, and leaving the rest of The Trilogy and The Hobbit out of it.

I think most Christians are probably Tanach-observant whether the realize it or not, the difference between us and them, is the level of observance, and there overall dismissal of some-parts of scripture. The problem with legalists is the concept of a pick and choose Christianity, if you are unwilling to obey all of the law before Yeshua, how can you obey Hashem in any of it?

So, they don't want to eat Kosher? Fine, but if they begin their faith telling Hashem what they won't do, how ill they ever get sanctification?

Anyway, back to the topic.

I tell my family, Judaism (which until I learned Mesiachim, we had not really considered ourselves Messianic Jews, just Jews, with as Paul Harvey would say, "the rest of the story") is not a religion. Islam is a religion, Hinduism is a religion, Judaism is not a system of beliefs based upon philosophical concepts and faith in the supernatural. True Judaism of Hashem is totally unlike any religion in the world, because in our faith when we bow our hearts and accept Yeshua, we come before the presence of the living Hashem in such a way, you cannot mistake it with a tingle feeling, though emotional in experience it is not an emotional event, but a real event, one where the awareness of the call of Hashem is so real, you know it as if it were science, you could trust it beyond all your five senses, and the worlds greatest sceptic could never deny it, when they come in the presence of an almighty Hashem. In the pressence of Hashem, there is no athiesm. All the lies that we tell ourselves, that cloud Ruach HaKodesh in our hearts, rudely and abruptly vanish like steam on a hot day.

But I suppose, those who have not tasted of the cup of the Mosiach, being ignorant of this experience would probably associate it with some synthetic make believe faith that the heathens have, and thus call it a religion. But though I am a simple Jew (perhaps only a Jew in my own heart, since my faith makes me an Kofer to those who call themselves Jews (Revelations 3:9)) unlearned in the Talmud or the ways of other Messianic Jews, I would humbly suggest, that it is as I see it. The true Judaism began with Abraham, from a Hashem that came all the way from Adam, who came the Jew, then to the goyim, and what we call Christianity now, is Judaism fulfilled.

Not to be anti- observant (would be silly as I try to keep Kosher) or anything, but The Mitzvot does not make me Holy, but rather The Spirit who calls me to follow it. Does the Spirit call ever man to follow the Mosiac Mitzvot? I cannot say, I am not every man. But I think it is a good thing for any Jew to do, why I do not know, but I personally feel every single person who has Hebrew blood should observe the Mitzvot unless The Spirit should say otherwise, because it is tradition! It is your ancestors culture and traditions, it's your cultural identity! Why not? Abraham followed it, David followed it, why shouldn't you? Should you hide your Jewish heritage? I take no pride in what Israel has become at present, but I take pride that is was through our chosen people the Messiah came! But I am not Ruach HaKodesh, and it is The Holy Spirit that guides each mans heart.

Should gentiles also, become Jewish, or observant? Why not? It makes sense to me! Consider you were adopted into a black family, would you not embrace the culture of the Black People, the same with Hispanic, or any culture. You have been adopted in a Jewish family, you should learn to be Jewish! But again, I have also read the writings of Paul, as I am sure you all have. So, if any gentile doesn't wish to identify with the Jewishness of Jesus, to share in the rich traditions, am I an apostle? Can I prevent what Paul permits? I respect their choices.

[alon]

Both this forum (and the sponsoring synagogue) and my own synagogue are "One Law," that is we believe there is only one which applies to both Jews and to those who place their trust in YHVH/Yeshua.

Num 15:16 (KJV) One law and one manner shall be for you, and for the stranger that sojourneth with you.

While we don't believe full observance is required for salvation, we do believe it is required by Hashen that we all are working towards this goal. We are grafted onto a Jewish tree, with only one trunk and one root system supporting and feeding our faith- . Hashem never said it was just for the Jews; and in fact there were Gentiles at Sinai when was given to Moshe. We are the strangers sojourning with Yisro'el, and as such are commanded to obey.

Dan C

[lou]

In order for a work to belong to a people, they must have a land n law in place first. Like the art in the Louvre etc...
Yah made sure was for all. Moshe brought these people (slaves) with no culture, no land, no law into no mans land to give His ways n laws... is for all man kind.

[HaChamor]

The thought that no one can observe perfectly is well-understood. The problem that most anomians don't realize is that has the foresight to understand that. There were principles and precepts in place for when people did falter, to bring them back into a proper status. Grace and forgiveness was just as much a part of the Tanakh as it is in the B'rit Chadashah. Their argument, overall, is invalid. The Creator would not give us something we could not uphold. A case in point is found here: "In the days of Herod, king of Judea, there was a priest named Zechariah, of the division of Abijah. And he had a wife from the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elizabeth. And they were both righteous before God, walking blamelessly in all the commandments and statutes of the Lord" (ESV, Lk. 1:5-6). If cannot be kept, then what sort of a contradiction is this that we see with Zeḵaryah and Elisheḇa?

To answer the question as to whether or not the Messiah started a new religion, the answer is "no." He was sent for the "lost sheep of Yisra’ěl." (Mt. 10:6, 15:24) It would be because those who were scattered to bless the world and bring others into the fold, similar to Ruth. They were and are not brought in while bringing pagan elements in with them.

[mosheli]

From the thread title and OP I see 5 different questions/issues:
1. Did God ever intend a *religion* / did Yeshua start a religion / is religion the answer?
2. Did Yeshua/Jesus *start* a/the religion?
3. Did Jesus start a *New* religion?
4. Religion vs law?
5. Is it impossible to keep the law/?

I am only a gentile christian messianic convert and and I have seen that Messianic Jews and other Messianics have much better knowledge and views than I have, though some of their things I am not sure that they may be right biblically. So anyway I am still learning, and these are my tentative thoughts on the questions. Please do correct anything I am wrong about.

1. Did God ever intend a *religion* / did Yeshua start a religion / is religion the answer?

It depends on what you mean by a "religion". On one hand christians and messianics see the word religion "bind" as a negative idea/thing by its association with other false religions and/or in a sense of empty practices/law(s) without any real relationship/rebirth. In that sense no God/Yeshua did not intend/start a religion. But on the other hand a religion is something that follows a God with scriptures and practices/rituals etc and in this sense Messianism or christianity is a religion similar to other religions (which are all corruptions with analogies).

2. Did Yeshua/Jesus *start* a/the religion?

No Yeshua did not start the "religion", it was started somewhere between before creation to Moses. Though he did started a new phase/way.

3. Did Jesus start a *New* religion?

No Yeshua didn't start a new religion because the religion is consistent all the way back to Genesis down to Revelation. Though yes he did mark a point of a change from old to new. Throughout the history of mankind/world and Judaism and Messianism/Christianity there have been "new" religion departures from the one true thread throughout history. Ie some Jews and Christians started new-religion-like things which "heretically" departed from the true one "religion" such as certain beliefs or practices, or new scriptures etc. Jesus did start what was originally a sect but which supposedly became a (new) religion.

4. Religion vs law?

I'm not sure what the dispute between law and religion is here. It seems that this is a Jewish & Messianic viewpoint which I need to understand more?

5. Is it impossible to keep the law/?

As to is it impossible to keep the Law I find am learning from messianic posts in this and other threads. I find it a bit confusing because of various different angles such as can't be saved by keeping the law alone, no human can perfectly keep the law, but we can't be lawless, Yeshua didn't do away with the law, Yeshua said if you love me you will keep my commandments or if you keep my commandments you will stay in his love, and in one verse it says anyone who teaches to break any of the commandments/law(s) is least, but in Acts the council only told the gentile believers to keep a few rules and Paul wrote against the Judaisers, and Paul seemed to speak alot about law/legalism versus grace and faith versus works, and not burdening the gentiles with law that the Hebrews/Israelites/Jews couldn't keep, and that they had no (external/codified/impressed) law before/until Moses, while in Revelation it says those who keep the commandments of God and those who keep the faith of Yeshua/Messiah. So I sort of have a position in between Messianics (& SDAs) and Christians - I don't think we don't keep the law but I don't think we have to stress too much about having to keep every jot and tiddle but rather by having the law written in our (new) heart (and/or law on tablets in Ark/Jesus in our heart?) and living in mercy/grace/love/faith we tend to keep the law rather than not keeping it (ie someone begging for mercy isn't going to be purposely doing bad/wrong and jepouradising it), and being freed we are not licentious. I can only submit this table as my very tentative rough understanding from the bible and life. Please do correct anything that may be wrong in the table.

old - new
6th day man - 8th day man (Gen 1-2)
666 - 888
fig leaf breeches - skins (Gen 3)
Cain - Abel (Gen 4)
religion - relationship
works/earn/merit/deserve - faith
legalism/law - grace/promise
Sinai/Hagar/Ishmael - Golgotha/Sarah/Isaac/promise
Baali "master/lord" - Ishi "husband"
sacrifice - mercy/lovingkindness
baker - cupbearer (Gen 40)
slave/bondage/religion "bind" - free
broad/wide - narrow / few find
hard/heavy/burden - light/easy
external law - law written in heart
straigtjacket/force/morelaws/draconian - rebirth/genetics
lips - heart
external/shallow - internal/deep
copy/imitate/pretend/fake - identify/born/genuine/real/created
cant/notable/impossible to keep - can/able to keep
lawless/antinomian/licentious/breaklaw - law/keeplaw/righteous
all have sinned/fallen - Jesus only one not sinned/fulfilled
man/men/world/mammon/Caesar - God
letter of the law - spirit of the law
flesh/carnal/materialist - spirit(ual)
Esau - Jacob
believe/faith without works - faith/faith with works (James 2)
cargo overboard - Jonah overboard (Jonah 1)
thief on left side - thief on right side
pharisee/self-righteous - tax collector/mercy
Goyim/Gentile - Jew
Saul - David
Israel - Judah/Jews
sand - rock
tares - wheat
goats/wolf/thief/hirling - sheep/shepherd
bad soil - good soil
tree of knowledge - tree of life (Gen 2-3)
Creation/evolution - Creator/creationist
refuse to look at serpent on cross - look at serpent on cross
Ophite - Setian
Cainite - Sethite/8th (Gen 4-6)
unclean - clean (Gen 6-7)
(seed of) serpent - (seed of) woman / Adam(ite) (Gen 3)
knowledge puffs up - love edifies
proud - humble
many called - few chosen
cold/lukewarm - hot (Rev 2-3)
Sardis - Philadelphia (Rev 2-3)
antichrist - Christ
mystery of iniquity - mystery of Godliness
all our motives/efforts - Jesus' love/Jesus 'sacrifice
ongoing animal sacrifices - One sacrifice of Yeshua

[alon]

Jul 11, 2021 16:58:21 GMT -8 mosheli said:

From the thread title and OP I see 5 different questions/issues:
1. Did God ever intend a *religion* / did Yeshua start a religion / is religion the answer?

Religion is an English word we are applying to a Hebraic system, so it will be an imperfect fit. Still, let’s define our terms:
religion
1. belief in, worship of, or obedience to a supernatural power or powers considered to be divine or to have control of human destiny
2. any formal or institutionalized expression of such belief: the Christian religion.
3. the attitude and feeling of one who believes in a transcendent controlling power or powers
4. (Roman Catholic Church) chiefly RC Church the way of life determined by the vows of poverty, chastity, and obedience entered upon by monks, friars, and nuns: to enter religion.
5. something of overwhelming importance to a person: football is his religion.
6. archaic
a. the practice of sacred ritual observances
b. sacred rites and ceremonies

So by defs. 1 & 3, yes, I suppose God did intend us to be “religious.” However in the case of nos. 4 & 5 I do not think He ever intended the RC Church or the NFL to be that big or important to anyone. But then there are nos. 2 & 6. Our services and celebrations should have some kind of order, and so we do need some arrangement to them. We make these up, since biblical instruction is for the priests and Temple worship. How much pomp, ceremony, ritual and rites is a big enough question for its own thread if anyone is interested. Where I go now there is very little of that, but a lot of instruction. We don’t even wear a tallit gadol; just my tallit katan under my shirt, and not a kippah in the place. That suits me, and is more what I think we should be doing. The parent synagogue of this forum, on the other hand does a complete Jewish style service, with a Messianic bent.



I think my view and yours (as expressed below) are pretty much the same.

2. Did Yeshua/Jesus *start* a/the religion?
3. Did Jesus start a *New* religion?

No, He neither did nor said anything not in the TNK or other Jewish writings, or either Oral Tradition. The entire Bible either points forward to Him or back to Him. “Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.” (Heb 13:8). He did institute the rituals for service in the Mishkan and Temple. But we have neither of those today.

4. Religion vs law?

I see it more as “religion vs. instruction.” Sure there are many absolutes laid down in Torah. But there are also stories which are instructive to us. There are choices laid out for us, and warnings of the consequences for our choices. There is progressive revelation, repetition, and many literary oddities, as well as poetry, and a language which can have multiple meanings and open ended statements. Now that is a doggone funny way to write laws if you ask me.

Torah is not a legal document. Laws can be amended or changed. God’s Torah, His instructions, are eternal.

5. Is it impossible to keep the law/torah?

Depends on how you see it. I can’t seem to keep Torah perfectly for long. However I can do what God instructed and repent, saying sorry and asking help to stop whatever I just did from reoccurring. If your view of Torah is it is “law,” then no. You break one law and you’ve blown it. No more perfect record. Break an instruction however, and grace is still available to you. You are then made perfect in Yeshua.

I am only a gentile christian messianic convert and and I have seen that Messianic Jews and other Messianics have much better knowledge and views than I have, though some of their things I am not sure that they may be right biblically. So anyway I am still learning, and these are my tentative thoughts on the questions. Please do correct anything I am wrong about.

We’re all learning …

Anyhow, that's how I would answer your questions. 

Pretty good; had to think a bit. 

[Questor]

I thought it fascinating the way you treated the question like a thesis, Dan! Very professorial!


I see the question differently. I think it is seen, by those who read the title, to ask, "Did Yeshua start Christianity?", despite the OP requesting a discussion of religion.

If being the proximate cause of a world-wide change in how humanity is supposed to treat one another, I would say no. The ideas were already present in the  T-rah.

Yeshua was G-d in human flesh, born a Jew, of the house of David, by the intervention of haRuach haKodesh. He lived as a Jew, taught as Jew, to Jews, in Judea, then died as a Jew, and was ressurected in a form that transcends mere humanity, but does not exclude his Judaic mindset, which flows directly from YHWH.


Christianity has been avoiding that knowledge since it began, which was well after the Disciples and Rav Shaul were dead. And every time a hint of Judaic thought pops its inconvenient head up, Christians stomp on it.


Yeshua taught T-rah to Jews who were familiar with all that he said, being raised themselves as T-rah abiding Jews, and he did so in a manner that required the Jews who knew what he was talking about to up their game spiritually, as Jews, or be left behind in a spiritual sense.

Those who understood him, and agreed with him, followed him, before and after his death, and taught others. Among them was Rav Sha'ul (Paul), a T-rah abiding Jew, and the T-rah abiding disciples who had known Yeshua.

It was their disciples amongst the Greco/Roman world that began the changes in the original message of Yeshua, and over time, it became a religion that had very little to do with Yeshua, or Judaism, but at least passed on the ten (nine/eight) commandments that helped civilize the world, along with a kernal of truth about Yeshua that when well sown, sprouts and grows into ideas that lead to truth.


Truth is not a religion, but an immovable reality, and fortunately so, or we would not still be seeking YHWH through the salvation he sent . . . Yeshua.