Remember Islam

[Elizabeth]

I hope it doesn't come to you leaving Miykhael because I think we agree but from differing perspectives. I also don't think Alon is teaching Islam the way you are perceiving it. It is more about knowing how they justify their actions and the consequences of Islam becoming a predominant religion.

All scripture referenced is relevant if we can discuss it out to come to a more complete perspective. We have the same concern to preserve the truth and combat lies, just on different levels and from different angles.

[alon]

They say that nothing happens in a vacuum, and this is especially true spiritually. I just had the privilege of speaking with a Messianic missionary from India. He is Indian, but well educated which means he comes from a more well to do family. Yet he has put himself in poverty to witness to and teach those who are impoverished. He is part of our (Beit Aveinu) family, and serves as a pastor there.

We here think of Hinduism as a peaceful religion because we always associate it with Gandhi. However I've talked to many missionaries and others who've been to India and nothing could be further from the truth. Hindus are extremely violent people. The government there is run by Hindus, and they wage a campaign of coercion and extortion on Messianic and Christian believers. In places where most Messianics do not know when, or even if they'll eat again because they are the last to be hired in a short job market, the government will pay them to convert to Hinduism.

This man runs schools where they are threatened with beatings and death, and still people send their children to walk from neighboring villages to go to school there, because they know they'll get a good education. One school was closed because the building owner was intimidated, yet they reopened the school and still teach, though told by the government not to sing or make noise and told by Hindus they will be harmed.

The Muslims, in accordance with their teaching to be friendly when weak, make nice with the Hindu government and the locals. They do not, however, feel the need to be nice to the Messianics. They openly terrorize Messianics and Christians, with no fear of consequences. Yet these people in this ministry press on.

And as bad as they have it, we also have a missionary effort in Pakistan. It is unimaginable how bad they have it right now.

I did not know this man was to speak at our synagogue today, so this thread was not a warm-up for this. But there are people in this world right now who are dyeing, people who risk death daily because of their belief in YHVH. Jews, Messianics and Christians are threatened and even killed in brutal ways. on us for staying silent! on us when our own government encourages these acts of barbarism, and we say nothing! And , on anyone who tries to silence those who point this out. Unbelievable.

While we are doing all this studying of the Word, maybe we should ask ourselves, if it ever comes down to it, could we stand fast in our faith? I pray nightly for God's help, because I don't delude myself that I can do something like that in just my own strength. Even when I was healthy I don't know that I could do what this man does in the conditions he voluntarily works in. But I do what I can:

* I give to Messianic missions, TRUE missions, where I know ALL the money goes straight to India and Pakistan
* I give to Jewish relief
* I pray for them, as this man urgently requested we do
* I stand up whenever I hear anti-Semitism, anti-Messianism, or even anti-Christian rhetoric
* I am vocal about my beliefs, and do not back away from confronting the things above or false doctrine (two weeks ago I got into it with a Wyclif staff person. I'm not as educated, and my memory is not good, but the truth will always come out! The deck was stacked in my favor for once as we were arguing Eternal Security in an AoG church, so ...)

But the point is, we should not just bury our heads, or turn tail when false doctrine is preached! And hatred is easier dealt with in its beginning stages than when the cancer has spread. Battles and even wars are won by countless individual fights! Your voice does matter! It will matter in the next election, and in your community, and wherever you are. But you must understand your enemy. If you think Hinduism is peaceful, you've lost that one before anything is said. And Islam is growing here and around the world. The stronger they get, the bolder and more violent they become. So either you learn the truth about it now and take a stand while you are only effecting peoples choices to convert, or you'll one day face the choice- convert or die. Do you have the courage of Davidas, the man who spoke today, to stand and teach Yeshua under the threat of bared knives? Can you, like those in the Mideast right now, choose crucifixion or being slowly burned to death? I'm sorry if these things bother some people, but they are the reality others live with daily. To pretend we don't know is unthinkable. With the technology we have today, it is our responsibility to know! And if we know, we are responsible to act!

[garrett]

Hi Everyone,

After reading through all the comments, I believe everyone is correct to a degree.

Miykhael-I agree that the majority of our study and pondering should be in the Holy scriptures of G-d.

Elizabeth - Again, I agree with immersion in the scriptures, trying to emulate Yeshua in order to show his love and praying for his revelation.

Alon - Knowing and understanding those who would (and do) persecute us or kill many of us.

One thing I have no problem saying is this: Throughout the multitudes of years that I went to churches, I became disgusted at the intellectual illiteracy of church leaders to address anything that happened outside the four walls of the church. Their knowledge of culture, the arts, philosophy, and world religions left them without authority. Everyone wanted to be "witnesses". It's wonderful to hopefully know a lot about the Bible, but we are far better equipped with credibility when we "know a thing or two" about what we are dealing with when someone crosses our path and has REAL QUESTIONS.

People in America are converting to Islam in droves, most significantly since 911. I want to give at least a few answers and facts to someone who is dabbling in Evil. There is a Christian lecturer/writer/philosopher named Ravi Zacharias who is still active to this day. I followed him off and on for at least 15 years. He always intrigued me because he made it a point of knowing as much as possible about those who were different from him (religions and athiests around the globe). This way he understood the person's world view. His strategy was to win peoples' minds, intellectually. This made so much sense to me because we are (hopefully) thinking people. I always want more information before believing in something so big.

Is studying all this other stuff for everybody? No!! But it is IS for some believers in G-d to know. Like Elizabeth said, I believe that we are in the last days. They always have been the last days but I think we are ridiculously closer to the End of Days. Can I entirely prove it? No. But my spirit and my gut instinct are killing me about it sometimes. And certain prophecies have come true and some are in the process of literally becoming true. Israel is re-established and those in the Diaspora ARE going back (and I am jealous) and the world is on fire right now - historically more so than ever before at one time. Everyone has an aptitude or a gift for different things. I think of Joseph - He was in Egypt - against his will but even though he remained true to the one G-d, don't think he didn't voluntarily and involuntarily take personal note and study of the culture and paganism he was surrounded by. Pharoah would not have permitted a moron in his presence. Joseph was bright and intelligent, yet loyal to G-d.

As a result, Joseph's father Jacob (Israel) was safely brought down to Egypt, along with the rest of his brothers and their families. The seed of Abraham was preserved and we were given Yeshua through the Passover and the Exodus. And pagan Pharoah permitted this to occur (of course G-d had something to do with it..).

Lastly, something to remember. Speaking out really is a responsibility. There is the famous situation of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. He was a Christian Pastor in Nazi Germany. He refused to submit to the laws and restrictions imposed on "the church" and he was clearly aware of the plight of the Jews. This man was literally involved in an assassination attempt on the life of Adolph Hitler. His plot failed and he was killed by the Nazis. I wish Mr. Bonhoeffer would have succeeded in the plot to kill Hitler. There were countless droves of pastors and Catholic priests who went to the ovens in defiance of a religious ideology that would kill Messianic Jews (that's right), Jews and Christians.

This topic of debate is nothing new under the sun. Burying our heads in the sand is deadly and being consumed with something is excess. Moderation is good. Fortunately...I only have to decide these things for one person and that's myself! That's more than enough.

Hope you are all well. G-d Bless You - garrett

[jimmie]

Apr 24, 2015 21:33:09 GMT -8 Miykhael said:

B”H
I’m sorry, We are offended of this thread, for we Read in Exodus 23:13 “Pay attention to everything I have said to you; do not invoke the names of other gods or even let them be heard crossing your lips.

Jeremiah 7:9 - Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
1 Samuel 7:4 - Then the children of Israel did put away Baalim and Ashtaroth, and served the LORD only.
1 Samuel 12:10 And they cried unto the LORD, and said, We have sinned, because we have forsaken the LORD, and have served Baalim and Ashtaroth: but now deliver us out of the hand of our enemies, and we will serve thee.
Numbers 25:3 And Israel joined himself unto Baalpeor: and the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel.
Leviticus 20:3 And I will set my face against that man, and will cut him off from among his people; because he hath given of his seed unto Molech, to defile my sanctuary, and to profane my holy name.
1 Kings 11:7 See verse in context Then did Solomon build an high place for Chemosh, the abomination of Moab, in the hill that is before Jerusalem, and for Molech, the abomination of the children of Ammon.

Does scripture break its' on commands? I think not.

[Elizabeth]

I think Garrett made a good point about our different roles and gifts, and it reminded me that we should be grateful for the roles each of us play.

Most certainly, we need to be a voice of strength and support for those of us who are on the frontlines. However, I can't help but notice that I am not in the world even as much as you guys are. At this point, I don't think I am supposed to be. I am grateful for that, but I know it is only to bless me with the opportunity to strengthen my family. I think my life is about preparing and teaching my children for now. I challenge what the world says and does, but I do it for and with my kids. I am not being given an opportunity to do any more than that currently because this is the job G-d is handing me now. I am not afraid of the world, but I feel my job is to show my kids how to set themselves apart from it.  This is where we are at now.

The point is we are each fighting a battle.  We just have to look for whatever battle G-d is currently handing us as individuals, know it has a larger purpose, and that He wouldn't hand it to us if we can't win it. It is being fought on multiple fronts, and our roles will change as we grow and He prepares us.  Meanwhile, He is using us to prepare the future generation to pick up where we leave off.  I think that is where all of this discussion is stemming from.  We each are in different places, with different opportunities, and different expectations; all to achieve His purpose.  He is preparing each individual for the different roles we will play while using us to build up each other.

[alon]

First, I'm going to hold back and answer plainly:

Understanding your enemy is not the same as worshiping him.

There are many cases where understanding and good intelligence on our enemies won the day. Read the book of Ruth. Without Mordechai's intelligence on two occasions the nation of Israel would have been destroyed. The deuterocanonical book of Judith tells a similar story. And lest we forget, spies were sent into the Promised Land ahead of the newly freed nation of Israel. Of that entire generation, the only two men to enter the Land were the two who brought back a "Can do!" report.

It is a fact that before anyone in God's side that wants to stand against murder, torture, oppression, and the domination of evil, he must first fight with those who want to appease or ignore. Worse, this will be a running battle with his own while he fights the darkness. I may be a haven for hemorrhoids, but your crimes are worse. You twist God's Word to support inaction in the face of the enemy. You enable the aforementioned crimes.

Perhaps there are those who do wish to stand up and be counted. Does their existence pose such a threat to your self esteem (and it should) that you are willing to allow atrocities to be committed in your name without protest?

[alon]

It is too bad this thread took this turn, because there is another point that needs to be addressed here. Muslims (other than those who converted) were raised in darkness. They were taught hatred as an integral part of their core belief system, some very radically so. We are of the light, and are called to be a light to the world. We should pray for these people, and another reason to understand their religion is so you can, if the opportunity presents, witness effectively to them. And in this age of worldwide social media this is not so far-fetched as it might seem.

I've heard that Israeli law has relaxed a little, but still you cannot openly preach Yeshua to Jews in Israel. You can however openly preach Him to as Many Muslims as you can get to listen. They know that every convert we make there is one less potential terrorist, or one less enabler for the radicals. They are also one more person who has a voice with ties to that community. So the best thing is to convince them of the truth of Yeshua; both for their sake and for our own.

Kind of a bad deal that we all forgot that in all the rhetoric.

Dan

[garrett]

Apr 25, 2015 6:51:54 GMT -8 Elizabeth said:

Listen to Islam scream "death, death", and show off their "strength".  What a pathetic display.  It's really weak when you think about it.  I know I am going to die.  I guess they aren't aware that they really don't have to try so hard.  

This war is already won.  The battle is to keep our hope in G-d.  G-d has already said, "life" and Yeshua confirms it. On it's deepest level, it is about us as individuals and how much we trust G-d and believe in the life He gives.  We have to fight to have compassion for the compassionless, and hope when the world says there is none.

I don't feel I need to understand Islam because it is simply evil trying to defeat the will of G-d.  I think many Muslims are more afraid of Islam than we are.  It is evil trying to convince people they have no worth and no choice. We know we do.  I don't think we can understand Islam.  It's just hate and fear, but we can pray for people knowing G-d made them for so much more and hope they somehow see it.  If we are in the end days, we may have to be the ones who show them.  Regardless, we know someone at some point will have to be.

I think so much of this is correct and I agree with a lot of it. This is a very realistic resignation to the facts of what is to come, especially knowing our eventual death. I agree that the country is beyond redemption and our hope rests in G-d and preparing for our future with Him. The future does look bleak, but there is still a lot of joy to be found and many things to be grateful for. If less exposure to some of the world's terrible news keeps your soul and mind more centered, then by all means keep a considerable distance. I even try to reduce the amount of "bad news" I expose myself to. Garbage in, garbage out.

Take Care - garrett

[Elizabeth]

Garrett, That's exactly what I have been struggling with lately. It can become a drain on your spirit if you don't keep the right perspective. I am working on reading the news while trying to check my heart to know when I am falling prey to fear and anger and loosing hope in G-d's power.

I know G-d keeps those who suffer for the faith close and He is their strength. I know they are setting an example of faith while being called faithless and not caving into the drive of self-preservation. I try to focus on the good and pray I can always find it. They are the good, so I try to focus on them.  They encourage me as they show the strength of following Yeshua. 

Meanwhile, we should make the most of our times of peace and security.   Alon is right, we should speak and be heard, but we should also just enjoy life to share the joy of Yeshua.  Who knows what is to come, but every strong relationship needs happiness and good memories when it is challenged. We shouldn't miss out on the blessing G-d is giving us and the enemy certainly wants us to. 

[alon]

Because stress aggravates my medical conditions I too limit my exposure to the news. However I try not to just burry my head in the sand. I stay at least somewhat aware of what is going on in the world, especially as it effects the Jews and religion in general. We don't have to be fanatics, pouring through the news and drawing lies between perceived conspiracies. They are there, but it'll drive you crazy trying to figure them out and you won't ever get it right anyhow. But signing petitions, attending protests, speaking up whenever someone parrots the nonsense disseminated by the media about Israel, or when anti-Semetic remarks are made- these are things we all can do, but only if we know the truth. That includes the Bible, certainly. But it also includes things that make scripture more relevant, like what is happening in the world today. And we must have at least a rudimentary understanding of Islam to apply the appropriate scripture to the argument. Because if you are depending on Muslims to give you the truth, you are acting foolishly. They hate the truth, hate being exposed. But as was pointed out to me, this is exactly what we are told to do!

Ephesians 5:11 ESV Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.

Dan C

[alon]

“Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act.” ― Dietrich Bonhoeffer

Because some American people have spoken up, this current administration in Washington has went from actively interfering with efforts to free Pastor Saed to finally meeting with his wife and speaking out about it. They have also went from the only free world gov't not to even show up at human rights violations conferences that addressed Pastor Saed's condition to now scrambling to cover their tracks and speak out. I'm sure what they do behind closed doors is radically different, and yes, Saed's conditions are worsening. But this is such a watershed change in policy and the approach of the administration it cannot go unremarked. Our voices do matter! You do not have to face the enemy to count. Speak up! At the very least do not try and hinder those who are willing to face evil.

Dan C

[alon]

This is an outstanding article on how Muslims operate to deceive us:

www.islam-watch.org/authors/139-louis-palme/1095-knowing-four-arabic-words-may-save-our-civilization-from-islamic-takeover.html

Dan C