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Post by fschmidt on Apr 11, 2015 1:07:51 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Apr 11, 2015 10:57:42 GMT -8
We have talked about it, and if we ever get to where we can build our own synagogue, there will be a gallery for the women and seating will be separate. Unlike some Christian denominations which separate men and women by seating them on either side of center aisle, synagogues typically separate the women by seating in a balcony behind the men. This not only keeps attention focused where it should be, it facilitates the women's role as the primary caregiver for children.
We don't do it now because the main synagogue is a rented space which is long and narrow with a stairwell coming up by the Rabbi. We could separate, but seating would be awkward and since the back actually dog-legs a bit it would be a bit like telling women they don't matter as much.
I attend a sort of satellite service in a town much closer to me. There are very few of us, and if we separated men and women it would involve the women sitting opposite us on the other side of the table. Kind of would not suit the purpose of the mechitza. So no, we don't separate ... yet.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 11, 2015 13:01:01 GMT -8
It probably varies from synagogue to synagogue, as Messianic synagogues vary quite a bit. I see both sides on this topic. I think there is value in worshiping as a family. However, I understand the issues that separate seating addresses as well. I also think it gives an opportunity for people to feel more community oriented. It seems like congregants may be more likely to reach out to each other when families sit separately. It was hard to watch older people or single people sit by themselves when I attended church. It did seem a little too family oriented at times as it occasionally felt exclusionary. Maybe this approach would also help address that issue as well and the community fellowship could actually be more fulfilling. Anyway, if that has been the historical standard, then that's how it should be. I am not sure my husband would be able to handle the "do something now" look that would be awaiting him after the service, though.  |
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Post by garrett on Apr 11, 2015 21:04:01 GMT -8
Upon going to an orthodox synagogue for the first time, I had found the separation of the men and women to be the most comfortable and easiest thing to tranition into. The whole congregation is so family/community oriented already. The partition on one side and the balcony above keep everyone in the right place, at least in my mind.
I find that prayer and worship are best fulfilled when I'm among the men, who are already completely minding their own business, reading from the Siddur. And I don't have the distraction of women in front of me or to my direct sides. It keeps my mind on the right matters at hand. So many of the women and mothers at our synagogue seem like the happiest and cared for women I've ever seen. My wife has also mentioned this many times.
Men are obligated to the discipline and duty of prayer, and spiritual exercise. In Judaism I've learned that women are often considered more spiritually "in tune" than men, which is why their attendance to synagogue and level of prayer is not as obligatory. And they are the center of the home, the family and the community so this is already a tall order for them as well.
I think the "separateness" of the synagogue is often only an issue to someone who might not understand the context. Everyone is together ALL the time so separation in the shul is fitting. This separation is good, at least in my eyes and FOR my eyes.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 13, 2015 14:11:02 GMT -8
Psalms 68:6a God setteth the solitary in families:
Deut 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates.
I think I am opposed to segregating the congregation along any lines be they, sex, nationality, age, economic status, etc.
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Post by garrett on Apr 14, 2015 16:18:40 GMT -8
Psalms 68:6a God setteth the solitary in families: Deut 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates. I think I am opposed to segregating the congregation along any lines be they, sex, nationality, age, economic status, etc. I don't think anyone (at least myself) is advocating segregating people based on sex, nationality, age, or financial status. That just sounds like a "social justice" anecdote to me. And I don't mean that disrespectfully. Roughly put, keeping everyone included during "feast" is appropriate but we are talking about something altogether different here. There is a time when the distraction of one's spouse or simply a person of the opposite gender is not beneficial to prayer, in this case, lengthy prayer. A functioning and G-d fearing family sees each other seven days a week, and that can include prayer time. But if I were in the synagogue on any given Shabbat and my wife were right next to me, my thoughts and concerns would continue to be focused on her. For me, this is a good weakness, considering that I am in love with her. However, I would not have the one-on-one time with G-d (and even the congregation for that matter) if she were right with me for two or three hours. There is always a kiddush afterwards, where everyone gathers together to eat, take grape juice or wine. I find little kids crawling under my legs that I don't even know! The women also have a chance to all see each other during or after minyan. I also get the chance to talk to some very interesting men after the service - and I don't think this would happen if my wife were right there - because the men might be more inhibited to have a brief, but serious, conversation with me. I discovered that being there and experiencing this environment in its actual context is what caused me to be fond of this practice. Bottom line - I can be myself and be more explicit with G-d without distractions. (and I am always very happy, maybe more so, to see my wife afterwards - maybe there is something to this?) G-d bless you - garrett |
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Post by alon on Apr 15, 2015 1:39:31 GMT -8
Psalms 68:6a God setteth the solitary in families: Deut 16:14 And thou shalt rejoice in thy feast, thou, and thy son, and thy daughter, and thy manservant, and thy maidservant, and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates. I think I am opposed to segregating the congregation along any lines be they, sex, nationality, age, economic status, etc.  Par'shah this week starts out:
Leviticus 12:1-5 (ESV) Purification After Childbirth The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, “Speak to the people of Israel, saying, If a woman conceives and bears a male child, then she shall be unclean seven days. As at the time of her menstruation, she shall be unclean. And on the eighth day the flesh of his foreskin shall be circumcised. Then she shall continue for thirty-three days in the blood of her purifying. She shall not touch anything holy, nor come into the sanctuary, until the days of her purifying are completed. But if she bears a female child, then she shall be unclean two weeks, as in her menstruation. And she shall continue in the blood of her purifying for sixty-six days.
So it would seem that God Himself made distinctions.
I don't know any place in the Bible where it says to either mix or separate men and women in any service as a commandment. This is more a matter of tradition/custom; however like most traditions there are some very good reasons for them. Still they are traditions, so your opinion is as valid as anyone else's. But to pull Bible verses which obviously have no bearing on the question at hand and try to use them to support your position cannot go unchallenged. MainC has been doing this for millennia now, and look where it has gotten us. We need to move past this kind of misunderstanding.
Likewise, mixing in other obvious examples of prejudice, which we are told not to be a part of, with this practice which is not forbidden gives it the onus of a forbidden act. This is simply wrong. Wrong thinking of the type we as Messianics are trying to leave behind when we leave mainC.
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 15, 2015 5:23:45 GMT -8
Isn't the Sabbath listed as the first feast?
Isn't that what you just did with Lev 12:1-5? I do accept that this scripture may shed light on the subject at hand. As i believe that the ones that i shared do.
Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 15, 2015 6:51:12 GMT -8
Deuteronomy 16:14 seems to support more of a communal celebration than a familial one to me. . .
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Post by alon on Apr 15, 2015 7:48:36 GMT -8
Isn't the Sabbath listed as the first feast? But to pull Bible verses which obviously have no bearing on the question at hand and try to use them to support your position cannot go unchallenged. MainC has been doing this for millennia now, and look where it has gotten us. We need to move past this kind of misunderstanding. I do accept that this scripture may shed light on the subject at hand. As i believe that the ones that i shared do.
Dan C |
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Post by garrett on Apr 15, 2015 12:07:32 GMT -8
Isn't the Sabbath listed as the first feast? Isn't that what you just did with Lev 12:1-5? I do accept that this scripture may shed light on the subject at hand. As i believe that the ones that i shared do. Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus Jimmie, There is clearly no biblically mandated command to separate men from women during worship. That's a given. I don't disagree with that at all. The thing that is disturbing to me is that we run the risk, right now, of making a mountain out of a mole hill. If someone doesn't like a partition in a shul, then don't go to that synagogue. Most importantly, this practice exercises no sin at all. Quite nice. But comparing separation of genders to anything OTHER than separation of genders is disingenuous and OFF TOPIC. And the attempted supportive scripture of Galatians 3:28 is entirely out of context and wrong. This is an ancient Middle-Eastern faith. That being so, I try to remember that this is not something I try to see through the lens of 21st century social mores and folkways. I'm a pretty mellow person, Jimmie, but I'm a little thrown off about the fuss on this one. Discussing the topic - great. Dismantling it and diluting it - not so great. G-d bless you - garrett |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 15, 2015 14:48:31 GMT -8
Elizabeth,
"and the Levite, the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, that are within thy gates."
I am assuming this is were you are seeing the communal nature. I can see that. I would also say that they are extended family. These are the very people i had in mind when referenceing Psalms 68:6.
alon,
I am have a hard time understanding the mixing thing. When Christ compared the Kingom of Heaven/God to a wheat field, a widow and so forth, he was not mixing earthly things with heavenly things. He was explaining thing in terms we had knowledge of. That is what i was trying to do.
garrett,
I am not trying to be "fussy". I an trying to explain my view of the subject matter. My use of Galatians 3:28 should only be veiwed in regrads to the quote from alon. He said i was mixing unrelated things. Galatians 3:28 contains some of the items that i was "mixing". Is Galatians 3:28 also "mixing" unrelated items?
Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
I am not judging anyone because they have segregated assemblies on the Sabbath. I am seeking to understand their reasons for doing so and offering the reasons that i have come to a different conclusion.
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Post by alon on Apr 15, 2015 15:06:28 GMT -8
... I think I am opposed to segregating the congregation along any lines be they, sex, nationality, age, economic status, etc.
However to separate by gender (sex) is a tradition for which we've given some very good reasons. Being a tradition and not a commandment you may agree with it or not, and as I said your opinion is as valid as anyone's. Just our opinion is not invalid because of some perceived relation to the rest of that list.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Apr 16, 2015 5:09:21 GMT -8
quote author=" alon" source="/post/18852/thread" timestamp="1429139188"]Separating because of nationality (race), age and economic (social) status would obviously be wrong. Lumping segregation by gender in with these makes it look bad by association. Dan C [/font][/quote] alon, Is the writer of Gal 3:28 making one of the items listed look bad by association? Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek(race), there is neither bond nor free(economic), there is neither male nor female(gender): for ye are all one in Christ Jesus I will always closely examine traditions of men. |
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Post by jimmie on Apr 16, 2015 5:44:32 GMT -8
So right after I posted the above post, the Spirit brought to my remembrance Miriam’s song:
Ex 15:20 And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances.
This is as clear an example of segregation by gender that can probably be found in scripture. I will go think on this for a while.
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