Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73 
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Post by Miykhael on Apr 1, 2015 9:20:25 GMT -8
B”H
Shalom and Blessings in our Moshiach Yeshua.
We have a question that we have been meditating for sometime now. Why has the Messianic Believers in Yeshua have made their own Congregations in stead of going to the Traditional Shul (synagogue). We really don’t see that in K’tuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings commonly known as the New Testament or B’rit Hadashah) when we read it.
I hope this will generate some healthy discussion.
Miykhael
Do Not Consider Yourself Overly Righeous
It is written (Psalms 146:8) “He opens the eyes of the blind, straightens out the bent over, and loves the righteous”. Why are the “righteous” mentioned in this verse, along with blemished people? This comes to tell you that if someone considers himself to be a “righteous person”, there is no greater blemish.
מאי דכתיב (תהלים קמו:ח): "פוקח עורים, זוקף כפופים, אוהב צדיקים" -- וכי מה להם לצדיקים בזה הפסוק בין בעלי-מומים? אלא, לומר לך שכל המחזיק את עצמו "צדיק", אין לך בעל-מום גדול הימנו. מקור- בשם רבי שמחה-בונים. - Rabbi Simcha Bunim of Przysucha
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Post by alon on Apr 1, 2015 11:17:43 GMT -8
B”H Why has the Messianic Believers in Yeshua have made their own Congregations in stead of going to the Traditional Shul (synagogue). We really don’t see that in K’tuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings commonly known as the New Testament or B’rit Hadashah) when we read it.
Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 1, 2015 16:31:23 GMT -8
No, I don't think they would have us.
Besides, Yeshua is a big deal not to have in common for our sake as well. I don't see how that would work out.
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Apr 2, 2015 7:59:42 GMT -8
B”H
One example is when Kefa was told not to teach in Yeshua’s name by the leader of his time, he even was thrown into prison , but was told to go back to the temple and to teach.
Acts 5:17-32 But the cohen hagadol and his associates, who were members of the party of the Tz’dukim, were filled with jealousy. They arrested the emissaries and put them in the public jail. But during the night, an angel of ADONAI opened the doors of the prison, led them out and said, “Go, stand in the Temple court and keep telling the people all about this new life!” After hearing that, they entered the Temple area about dawn and began to teach. Now the cohen hagadol and his associates came and called a meeting of the Sanhedrin (that is, of Isra’el’s whole assembly of elders) and sent to the jail to have them brought. But the officers who went did not find them in the prison. So they returned and reported, “We found the jail securely locked and the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened it, we found no one inside!” When the captain of the Temple police and the head cohanim heard these things, they were puzzled and wondered what would happen next. Then someone came and reported to them, “Listen! The men you ordered put in prison are standing in the Temple court, teaching the people!” The captain and his officers went and brought them, but not with force; because they were afraid of being stoned by the people. They conducted them to the Sanhedrin, where the cohen hagadol demanded of them, “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name! Look here! you have filled Yerushalayim with your teaching; moreover, you are determined to make us responsible for this man’s death!” Kefa and the other emissaries answered, “We must obey G-d, not men. The G-d of our fathers raised up Yeshua, whereas you men killed him by having him hanged on a stake. G-d has exalted this man at his right hand as Ruler and Savior, in order to enable Isra’el to do t’shuvah and have her sins forgiven. We are witnesses to these things; so is the Ruach HaKodesh, whom G-d has given to those who obey him. (CJB)
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Post by garrett on Apr 2, 2015 8:31:07 GMT -8
B”H Why has the Messianic Believers in Yeshua have made their own Congregations in stead of going to the Traditional Shul (synagogue). We really don’t see that in K’tuvei HaShalichim (the Apostolic Writings commonly known as the New Testament or B’rit Hadashah) when we read it.
Dan CB"H Right, This is the awkwardness of it all. There are only two "Messianic Congregations" that I know of in my city. I went to one for a while but it was mostly just "church". And the Pastor, who ultimately wanted to reach the Jewish people in the "little Israel" section of town, where the congregation was located, lived nothing like the traditionally observant Jews. He was a nice guy but had no problem putting away the shrimp and pork and doing 20 different Seders for churches all over, on all kinds of different dates. And he would go and buy lunch after service. As far as his evangelization to the Jews, I only knew him to really pursue those who had always lived a secular life but were Jewish. This always stunned me. Separation to worship is the best option but I still like to go a traditional Orthodox Synagogue. Especially this Saturday, being Pesach especially. I do not go there to proselytize - never. I go to worship G-d among Jews and pray to G-d. I really like it. And I don't think I will ever go to a church again. "Discussion" of beliefs just doesn't come up. Discussion of Moshiach (in depth) doesn't come up. The morning Minyan and everything else takes up the time. It's all prayer and reading from the  and other scriptures. After two and a half hours we are tired, good tired. Then there is a kiddush meal downstairs or lunch at someone's house. That's the extent of my exposure. Even though it's complicated, I try not to overcomplicate it. I'm going to a place of worship. Am I hiding a secret or being deceptive? No. I am quiet and I am respecting people. I'm a Jew and I will walk through the front doors and pray to my G-d. I "could" choose to be just as offended for anyone not respecting what I qualifyingly believe regarding the Moshiach. It's a never-ending issue but I'm in a decent place with it... |
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Post by alon on Apr 2, 2015 11:08:28 GMT -8
B”H One example is when Kefa was told not to teach in Yeshua’s name by the leader of his time, he even was thrown into prison , but was told to go back to the temple and to teach. Acts 5:17-32 But the cohen hagadol and his associates, who were members of the party of the Tz’dukim, were filled with jealousy. They arrested the emissaries and put them in the public jail. But during the night, an angel of ADONAI opened the doors of the prison, led them out and said, “Go, stand in the Temple court and keep telling the people all about this new life!” After hearing that, they entered the Temple area about dawn and began to teach. Now the cohen hagadol and his associates came and called a meeting of the Sanhedrin (that is, of Isra’el’s whole assembly of elders) and sent to the jail to have them brought. But the officers who went did not find them in the prison. So they returned and reported, “We found the jail securely locked and the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened it, we found no one inside!” When the captain of the Temple police and the head cohanim heard these things, they were puzzled and wondered what would happen next. Then someone came and reported to them, “Listen! The men you ordered put in prison are standing in the Temple court, teaching the people!” The captain and his officers went and brought them, but not with force; because they were afraid of being stoned by the people. They conducted them to the Sanhedrin, where the cohen hagadol demanded of them, “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name! Look here! you have filled Yerushalayim with your teaching; moreover, you are determined to make us responsible for this man’s death!” Kefa and the other emissaries answered, “We must obey G-d, not men. The G-d of our fathers raised up Yeshua, whereas you men killed him by having him hanged on a stake. G-d has exalted this man at his right hand as Ruler and Savior, in order to enable Isra’el to do t’shuvah and have her sins forgiven. We are witnesses to these things; so is the Ruach HaKodesh, whom G-d has given to those who obey him. (CJB) 
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 2, 2015 13:35:16 GMT -8
Speaking as a confused Gentile and in regards to people like me.... 
It was a different time. Before the "church" and Christianity. Since Yeshua and his disciples were Jewish, it would have just seemed logical for them to attend service with other Jews. Yeshua was someone Jews had to deal with because He was Jewish, and it was Jews preaching Him. There was also no other option because there was no "church" to go to on Sunday. Now, the church has handed Jewish people an easy way to dismiss Yeshua, and done it's best to erase anything Jewish about Him other than his ethnicity.
We just have to be careful not to discredit Him in the eyes of His own any further than the world already has.
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Post by jimmie on Apr 2, 2015 14:52:13 GMT -8
I have a good friend who attends the local refrom Jewish congregation. He is a former Pentacostal turn Messianic turned Jew. So they seem quite accepting of those who convert. Then i suppose the church is accepting of Jews who convert to Christianity. I have been to the Jewish congregation a few times and found them corgeal in every way. however, I did not lay down Christian traditions to pick up Jesish ones so i fit in there about as good as i fit in at Christian churches.
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Apr 3, 2015 7:02:52 GMT -8
So you are saying we should go to shul, disrupt their service and preach Yeshua, Good luck with that. Dan C B”H I not suggesting that we go to disrupt Shul, rather go to worship HaShem and his redeemer. What did Yeshua say? Matthew 10:16-23 “Pay attention! I am sending you out like sheep among wolves, so be as prudent as snakes and as harmless as doves. Be on guard, for there will be people who will hand you over to the local Sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues. On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as a testimony to them and to the Goyim. But when they bring you to trial, do not worry about what to say or how to say it; when the time comes, you will be given what you should say. For it will not be just you speaking, but the Spirit of your heavenly Father speaking through you. “A brother will betray his brother to death, and a father his child; children will turn against their parents and have them put to death. Everyone will hate you because of me, but whoever holds out till the end will be preserved from harm. When you are persecuted in one town, run away to another. Yes indeed; I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Isra’el before the Son of Man comes.(CJB) p.s. having a tough time with posting quotes. |
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Post by alon on Apr 3, 2015 9:13:30 GMT -8
I went to shul while I was in boot camp. I had a Jewish friend who didn't want to go alone and at the time I didn't really care. I was obviously a goy, but they didn't really care. It was interesting, but I can't say I got much out of the experience except for the night they played Jesus Christ Superstar- that night I wondered if I was going to get out at all! However I had to fill out a reuest to go, and had I put I was a Messianic looking for fellowship I doubt they'd have allowed me to come.
If there is a good Messianic fellowship close enough for you to get to on Shabbat, I'd say go there. If not, and there is a Synagogue which will have you then go there. A good bible preaching church is the last option.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Apr 3, 2015 23:07:12 GMT -8
I've given this some thought, so to answer your post more seriously:I not suggesting that we go to disrupt Shul, rather go to worship HaShem and his redeemer.
At that time as well believers in Yeshua as HaMoshiach were thought of as just another sect of Judaism. They were welcomed in synagogues and had many debates with people there about Yeshua. This all changed after the Bar Kochba Revolt and most of Judaism's unjustified blame against these early Messianics for the defeat. Had Rabbi Akiva been a man of 1/10th the character of Yeshua's disciples he'd have kept his mouth shut instead of self aggrandizing and anointing a false Messiah. But be that as it may, he did, we got blamed, and now we are no longer welcomed in their shuls.
Another point to make is that the Spirit of God was upon these men like NO ONE other than Yeshua Himself.
So what would be your purpose in going? Do you think you have the calling of Kefa or Rav Sha'ul? If so, go preach in their synagogues. But I think either of those men would say before you accept such a caling, first make sure it IS your calling, then count the cost, and only then go. Is your purpose only to worship? Then why not go and support or start a Messianic synagogue or study group; worship openly with like minded believers instead of skulking into someone else's place of worship and lying about who and what you are. Is it just to be with Jews when they worship? OK, go ask if you can attend a few times. But be honest about who you are and why you want to be there.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2015 5:23:45 GMT -8
Having no place "to go" is just a consequence of following Yeshua, and living in a world that is trying to destroy the will of G-d. I think it will only get worse, but we do have His Spirit for a reason.
As they were going on the road, someone said to Him, " I will follow you wherever you go." Yeshua said to him, "Foxes have holes, the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay His head."
Luke 9:58
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Post by alon on Apr 4, 2015 8:27:23 GMT -8
Luke 9:57-62 (NASB) Exacting Discipleship
57 As they were going along the road, someone said to Him, “I will follow You wherever You go.” 58 And Jesus said to him, “The foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay His head.” 59 And He said to another, “Follow Me.” But he said, “Lord, permit me first to go and bury my father.” 60 But He said to him, “Allow the dead to bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim everywhere the kingdom of God.” 61 Another also said, “I will follow You, Lord; but first permit me to say good-bye to those at home.” 62 But Jesus said to him, “No one, after putting his hand to the plow and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”
I see this as the passage which says we need to count the cost before we commit. If God is calling us to some service, then we should of course commit. But we shouldn't always be looking back at what we left behind. Many tagged along with Yeshua for a short time, but only His talmidim stayed with Him the whole time.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Apr 4, 2015 10:43:40 GMT -8
Probably. I wasn't saying to avoid a service you feel called to.
For some reason this verse always comes to my mind when I think about following G-d in this world. I may be misapplying it, but it reminds me the life of a disciple can be a lonely one. I do think we should be ready to follow G-d in a world that tries its best to have no place for us because it is trying its best to have no place for our G-d.
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Post by alon on Apr 5, 2015 4:15:43 GMT -8
Probably. I wasn't saying to avoid a service you feel called to. For some reason this verse always comes to my mind when I think about following G-d in this world. I may be misapplying it, but it reminds me the life of a disciple can be a lonely one. I do think we should be ready to follow G-d in a world that tries its best to have no place for us because it is trying its best to have no place for our G-d.
Dan C |
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