cgpb
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Post by cgpb on Dec 26, 2014 4:24:10 GMT -8
The following thread can also be viewed at the following link:
youtu.be/NWb5iHdtTZY
Another objection Jews raise to Isaiah 53 is that it cannot refer to Jesus because Isaiah 53:2-3 says that:
“He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him,
nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.
He was despised and rejected by mankind,
a man of suffering, and familiar with pain.”
-whereas the New Testament tells us that large crowds followed Jesus.
First of all, the problem with this argument is that Bible prophecy never prophesies about the entire life of an individual but only the aspect/s of their life that are of relevant significance to the prophecy. It is wrong to reject a prophecy because one chooses an aspect of an individual’s life that is not mentioned in the prophecy and uses it as a basis to claim that an individual is therefore not the fulfillment of the prophecy.
That would be like saying that Joseph cannot be the fulfillment of Genesis 37:5-11 because it prophesies that Joseph’s brothers would bow down to him, but we are then told that his brothers sold him to the Ishmaelites. Joseph is still the fulfillment of the prophecy as both events are relevant to his life.
In Isaiah 53, the emphasis of the passage is on the servants sufferings (through rejection, sorrow, oppression, being crushed, and death ) and not on the servant’s ministry before His sufferings. The quantity and intensity of negative words explains why it is called the suffering servant passage and the description is appropriate in describing Jesus as he is rejected, enters into His sufferings and is crucified as He has been treated and judged by the people
Secondly, nowhere does the New Testament or any other historical book give us a description of the physical appearance of Jesus . Contrast this to the OT where references are made to the physical appearance of:
i. Joseph – described as well built and handsome. (Genesis39:6)
ii. King Saul - an impressive young man without equal among the Israelites- and a head taller than any of the others. (1 Samuel 9:2)
iii. David – ruddy with a fine appearance and handsome features. (1 Samuel 16:12 )
iv. Absolom - praised for his handsome appearance and hair and having no blemish in him. (2 Samuel 14:25)
v. Adonijah - also praised for being handsome. (1 kings 1:6)
vi. Daniel – a handsome young man without physical defect (Daniel 1:4)
It is important to note here that large crowds do not follow a person just because of their appearance. There are other reasons and the NT is clear that the reasons crowds followed Jesus were because:
i. The power /anointing of God was so strong upon Him to perform miracles. (Matthew 13:54)
ii. He taught with wisdom and authority. (Matthew 7:28-29)
iii. His prophetic ability. (Matthew 21:2)
iv. He provided the needs of people. (Matthew. 14:18-21)
So, during His ministry years, Jesus was anointed with the power of God and drawing the crowds because it was fitting in order to restore and reveal the kingdom of God, but as the suffering servant who would restore righteousness to the world through His sufferings, it would be highly unrealistic and unreasonable to expect beauty or majesty from any individual who would experience the same sufferings at his trial and crucifixion.
Similarly, could one expect beauty and majesty from the righteous servant Job when he was afflicted and suffering?
Thirdly, Jews often claim that Israel is the fulfillment of this prophecy because Israel has been despised among the nations and mistreated, whereas even though Jesus was rejected by the Jewish people, he certainly was not rejected by mankind generally as the gospel message spread quickly throughout the nations.
This argument is flawed for 2 main reasons:
i. Despite Israel’s sufferings, Israel has produced many of the world’s most famous, attractive, wise and intelligent people who are admired and respected worldwide. So if this prophecy is referring to Israel, then who in particular?
ii. The ratio of true disciples of Jesus (not Christians in name only) compared to the world’s population at any given time through the ages is still small. If something is a majority then it usually isn’t subject to persecution since the masses have embraced it. This is not the case with Christianity. Many of the religious leaders did despise Him, and questioned His credentials, and later throughout history many governors and emperors oppressed and persecuted Christians.
Today the current world population is about 7 billion people.
Of those 7 billion, about 2 billion claim to be Christians or belong to the Christian faith.
Of those 2 billion “Christians”, a lot fewer are true disciples or truly obedient to the teachings of Jesus, therefore we can see that even today the majority of the world still rejects and despises Jesus. For He said:
“Not everyone who says to me ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven but only He who does the will of my Father in heaven." (Matthew 7:21)
“Wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it” (Matthew. 7:13-14)
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 27, 2014 17:40:46 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6.....
"But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all."
Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to?
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Post by alon on Dec 28, 2014 20:27:13 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6..... "But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all." Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to?
"There is no doubt that the early Messianic Jews found Isaiah 53 to be foundational to their faith" says Glaser; and "whether or not Jesus is the Jewish Messiah should be evaluated on its own merits." "The death of the Servant is compared to the Temple sacrifice known as the asham. This word is translated as "trespass offering", "guilt offering" or simply "offering." The death of the servant in Isaiah 53 is clearly viewed by the prophet as a trespass offering- the offering designed both for the removal of guilt and its implied restitution."
"Hebrews describes the way in which the sacrifice of Yeshua fulfills the demands of the  , especially the requirements of the sacrificial system. His bearing our iniquities does what the sacrifice of animals in the Temple could never truly accomplish."
And every priest stands ministering daily and offering repeatedly the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins. But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God, from that time waiting till His enemies are made His footstool. For by one offering He has perfected forever those who are being sanctified. But the Holy Spirit also witnesses to us; for after He had said before, "This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, says the Lord: I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds I will write them," then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." Now where there is remission of these, there is no longer an offering for sin. Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh, Hebrews 10:11-20
"Two pictures of the Messiah are found in the Hebrew scriptures. One is that of a victorious Messiah reigning in righteousness. The other is a picture of a humble Messiah who would die as a substitute for the sins of humanity. ... While it is commonly taught that the Messiah's role is to restore the Kingdom of God, there is also a basis for a suffering Messiah in Jewish thought." Dr. Glaser then goes on to quote several sources from Jewish literature to support this; among them:
"Messiah Son of David ... You must bear the sufferings and wounds by which the Almighty chastises you for Israel's sins." (Midrash Konen; 11th century).
"When the Holy One desires to give healing to the world, He smites one just man amongst them, and for his sake heals all the rest. From where do we learn this? From the saying [Isaiah 53:5] And he is pierced for our transgressions, Bruised for our iniquities, The chastisement of our peace [is] on him, And by his bruise there is healing to us. (Zohar, Numbers, Pinchas 218a)
The Messiah, in order to atone for them both [Adam and David], will make his soul a trespass offering [Isaiah 53:13] as it is written next to this parashah "Behold my servant." [Isaiah 53:10] (Midrash Aseret Memrot)
So the idea of Messiah as both the Suffering Servant, a sacrifice for our sins, as well as the Victorious One who defends Israel and restores her to her rightful place is no newer than anything else in the "New Testament." It is a Jewish idea which has gotten lost in the dogma and rhetoric of the rabbis in the last two millennia of persecution, animosity and hatred. For a Jew to accept Yeshua as HaMoshiach is seen as the worst kind of treason. This is why they feel the need to interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel and not to Messiah.
I'd recommend the book from which all the above quotes were taken, "Isaiah 53 Epxplained", by Mitch Glaser, 2010, Chosen People Productions. Just be aware that Dr. Glaser and the organization which he heads, Chosen People Ministries, are Dispensationalists and so are more aligned with mainstream Christianity than with Messianism. They used to would send a copy of this book free to anyone of the Jewish faith who requested it.
Dan C |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 18, 2018 14:31:32 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6..... "But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all." Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think, I am sure the "our", "we" and the "us" is a reference to Israel, according to the collective concept of Messiah. Not only myself but also Habakkuk 3:13 advocates the fact that "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus. 4:22,23. BTW, here is a thread I prepared about the collective concept of Messiah: THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH - The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.
We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. "The House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah." (Isa. 48:1)
Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel is the Messiah, the Jewish People. Rashi thought so too and a few other thinkers of weight.
Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there won't be any paradox, we can have it from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1, which goes thus: "Israel is My son; so let My son go so that he may serve Me." and "When Israel was a child, I loved him; and from Egypt I called My son."
Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for providing the means to rebuild the Temple. And in our modern times, Theodor Herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion. Baruch HaShem! |
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Post by alon on Sept 18, 2018 14:52:16 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6..... "But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all." Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think, I am sure the "our", "we" and the "us" is a reference to Israel, according to the collective concept of Messiah. Not only myself but also Habakkuk 3:13 advocates the fact that "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord aka Israel the Son of God if you read Exodus. 4:22,23. BTW, here is a thread I prepared about the collective concept of Messiah: THE COLLECTIVE MESSIAH - The text is the whole chapter 53 of Isaiah.
We all know that the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah. So, no argument about it. But then, who did Isaiah have in mind when he wrote chapter 53? In fact, who was in his mind when he wrote the whole book? That's in Isaiah 1:1. "A vision about Judah and Jerusalem." That's the theme of the book of Isaiah: Judah. "The House of Jacob called by the name Israel from the stock of Judah." (Isa. 48:1)
Now, how about the Suffering Servant? Isaiah mentions him by name, which is Israel according to Isaiah 41:8,9; 44:1,2,21; 45:4. Here we have established a syllogism. If the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 53 is the Messiah, and Isaiah identifies that Servant with Israel, the resultant premise will obviously be that Israel is the Messiah, the Jewish People. Rashi thought so too and a few other thinkers of weight.
Now, if the Messiah must also bring the epithet of son of God, there won't be any paradox, we can have it from Exodus 4:22,23 and Hosea 11:1, which goes thus: "Israel is My son; so let My son go so that he may serve Me." and "When Israel was a child, I loved him; and from Egypt I called My son."
Last but not least, Jesus no doubt was part of the Messiah but not on an individual basis. The Messiah is collective. What we need from time to time, especially when in exile, is of a Messianic leader to inspire or lead the Messiah back home. Moses was one for bringing the Messiah back to Canaan. Cyrus was another for proclaiming the return of the Messiah and for providing the means to rebuild the Temple. And in our modern times, Theodor Herzl was another for inspiring the Messiah with love for Zion. Baruch HaShem!
This is another cookie-cutter response which has been dealt with. So again, I will cookie-cutter a reply: Dan C |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 19, 2018 7:27:48 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6..... "But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all." Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to? -------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't think, I am sure the "our", "we" and the "us" is a reference to Israel, according to the collective concept of Messiah. I agree the "our", "we", and the "us" is a reference to Israel. That then leaves you with the problem of the "he" on whom the L-RD made to light your iniquities. For example, if we just replace the word Israel for the our, we, and us ... He was wounded for Israel's transgressions. He was crushed because of Israel's iniquities The chastisement of Israel's wellfare was upon him. And with his stripes Israel is healed. You see my issue, but I was coming at it from a different angle. I was thinking Jewish people considered themselves the "he" when I wrote this question. So I was asking who is the our, we, and us being referenced that Israel is saving. Nevertheless, it's the same issue we're discussing - Israel can't be both the savior and the saved. |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 21, 2018 9:21:40 GMT -8
I agree the "our", "we", and the "us" is a reference to Israel. That then leaves you with the problem of the "he" on whom the L-RD made to light your iniquities. For example, if we just replace the word Israel for the our, we, and us ... He was wounded for Israel's transgressions. He was crushed because of Israel's iniquities The chastisement of Israel's wellfare was upon him. And with his stripes Israel is healed. You see my issue, but I was coming at it from a different angle. I was thinking Jewish people considered themselves the "he" when I wrote this question. So I was asking who is the our, we, and us being referenced that Israel is saving. Nevertheless, it's the same issue we're discussing - Israel can't be both the savior and the saved. -------------------------------------------------------------- Okay Elizabeth, let me see if I can answer your questions above. HaShem had decided to reject Israel for good and to confirm Judah to remain as the only people of the Lord. (Psalm 78:67-69) Now, HaShem needed to send that prophetic message to Israel, the Northern kingdom and assigned Isaiah with that mission. Isiah was from Judah, the Southern kingdom. (Isaiah 6:8,9) So, "he" was Israel to whom Isaiah spoke and the "he", was Judah about who Isaiah spoke. Israel was Messiah ben Joseph and Judah, Messiah ben David. Now, please, read this thread I wrote about Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David and you will have a good idea about the former existence of two Messiah's. MESSIAH BEN JOSEPH VERSUS MESSIAH BEN DAVID - The whole chapter 53 of Isaiah is about the dramatic epic of two Messiahs: Messiah ben Joseph and Messiah ben David. The drama that culminated in the "death" of Messiah ben Joseph for the sins of Messiah ben David. Properly speaking, Messiah ben Joseph is Ephraim or Israel, the Ten Tribes of the Northern Kingdom. And Messiah ben David is Judah, the Southern Kingdom. The sins of Judah had filled the Divine cup, and in God's judgment, the day had arrived for the removal of Judah.(Isaiah 9:8) But according to I Kings 11:36, God had promised David that Judah, whose Tribe he had come from, would stay as a Lamp in Jerusalem forever. Therefore, according to Isaiah 9:8, the final judgment that was supposed to come upon Judah fell upon Israel instead, and Messiah ben Joseph had to go instead of Judah, or Messiah ben David. But Isaiah says in 53:9 that the Suffering Servant was without guile, and sinless. That's exactly what Israel was: Pure of the sins he died for, since they were the sins of Judah and not his. Messiah ben Joseph therefore, did not die for his sins but for the sins of Messiah ben David. Therefore, Israel was removed because of the sins of another. He was pierced so to speak, by the sins of Judah. The sacrifice of Israel or Messiah ben Joseph meant the salvation of Judah or Messiah ben David. That's why Zechariah in 12:10 says that they (Judah) shall look upon him (Israel) whom they (Judah) had pierced with their sins, and mourn for him (Israel) as the one who mourns for his firstborn. Now, let me explain by way of an analogy how Israel, or Messiah ben Joseph, who was the Suffering Servant died innocent of the sins of Judah or Messiah ben David: "A" and "B". "A" has committed a crime punishable with death, and "B", by mistake was condemned for that crime. It doesn't matter how evil is "B" in his life or how bad are his sins. The point is that he was condemned to die for the crime of "A". Therefore "B" was killed innocent and pure of the crimes and sins of "A". "A" got saved by the death of "B". So, "B" was the Suffering Servant that brought salvation to "A". Now matching the analogy to reality, "A" was Judah that pierced "B" with his crimes and sins. Now, with the removal of Messiah ben Joseph, according to Psalm 78:67-70, Messiah ben David occupied the place of Messiah ben Joseph, but as the Triumphant Servant with reference to the rest of Mankind, because of God's promise to Noah that humanity would never be destroyed again in an universal manner.(Genesis 8:21) The People-redeemer was the pledge and on his way in the near future with the choice of Abraham through Isaac. That's what sustains the world and allows it to keep going. Now, there is a small detail worthy keeping in mind. The blood of the Suffering Servant was shed once and for all. Now, Mankind is kept safe with the existence of Judah, the Triumphant Servant, according to Jeremiah 31:35-37. Maranguape |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 21, 2018 17:19:16 GMT -8
Thanks for the explanation.
My immediate issues are that your are attributing some of Isaiah 53 to Judah generally, while all of it can be attributed to Yeshua specifically. With all due respect, I also don't believe your A and B example of a substitutionary offering really holds. G-d is holy and perfect. That just doesn't fit His nature and He doesn't accept imperfect offerings which is what Isaiah 53 describes (verse 10).
Also, G-d promised to never destroy the earth by water in Genesis 9:15. He didn't promise to never destroy the earth again. He specified by water, which naturally begs the question will He destroy the earth again. So why did He specify water? Because He will destroy the earth again, but it will be by fire. (2 Peter 3) Again, this is a reflection of His holy and perfect nature and the collective concept of messiah doesn't seem to acknowledge that very much. There are also promises to the nations and prophecies regarding the nations that the concept doesn't seem to
address. Isaiah 65 says He is sought by a nation not His Own. How do you see that fulfilled in the collective concept of Messiah?
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Post by alon on Sept 21, 2018 21:44:10 GMT -8
Psalm 78:67-69 (CJB)
Rejecting the tents of Yosef
and passing over the tribe of Efrayim,
he chose the tribe of Y’hudah,
Mount Tziyon, which he loved.
He built his sanctuary like the heights;
like the earth, he made it to last forever.And therein lies the problem, the sin for which the Northern Kingdom was punished, among many others. They decided to worship God their way, on their mountain, and they committed many abominations before the Lord. They also had “their ,” a version changed to reflect the changes in their worship. They were not punished for Judah’s sins, but for their own. The message of Isaiah was directed mostly at Judah, and was a message of repentance. However, a quote from the introduction to the book od Isaiah in my JPS TNK is enlightening: “He anticipated the dawn of a new era in which all nations would recognize the one true God. … empires and warfare would exist no more. During this era the Judean king, a descendant of David, would rule all Israel in perfect justice. (From this set of ideas, later Judaism would construct the idea of the Messiah and the messianic era, though Isaiah never calls him Messiah.)”Not the nation, but one man, a king in the line of Melech Dovid; called “him,” not “them.” A man, not a nation. Now let’s look at just a few prophecies of this messiah in Isaiah: Isaiah 7:14 (CJB)
Therefore Adonai himself
will give you people a sign:
the young woman* will become pregnant,
bear a son and name him ‘Immanu El [God is with us].The term translated “young woman” here is ʻalmâh, which may also mean a lass—damsel, maid, or virgin.
Isaiah 9:5 (6) (CJB)
For a child is born to us,
a son is given to us;
dominion will rest on his shoulders,
and he will be given the name
Pele-Yo‘etz El Gibbor
Avi-‘Ad Sar-Shalom
[Wonder of a Counselor, Mighty God,
Father of Eternity, Prince of Peace],This Messiah would be God Himself, not Israel. Isaiah 42:1 (CJB)
“Here is my servant, whom I support,
my chosen one, in whom I take pleasure.
I have put my Spirit on him;
he will bring justice to the Goyim.“Justice to the goyim,” meaning nations, meaning all Israel. Israel is a nation, and they have never been able to bring justice to themselves, let alone the other goyim (Gentile nations).
Isaiah 53:3 (CJB)
People despised and avoided him,
a man of pains, well acquainted with illness.
Like someone from whom people turn their faces,
he was despised; we did not value him.Yeshua was and is rejected by many. Isaiah 53:8-9a (CJB)
After forcible arrest and sentencing,
he was taken away;
and none of his generation protested
his being cut off from the land of the living
for the crimes of my people,
who deserved the punishment themselves.
He was given a grave among the wicked;
in his death he was with a rich man.This Messiah must die. So if it were the Hebrew nation as you claim and they all die, what would this make of God’s promises to them? He would then be a liar, and that can never be! So your theology does not hold up to close scrutiny. “He” could not have been Israel. And the two messiah’s, Moshiach ben Yoseph v’Moshiach ben Dovid cannot be the two kingdoms. They are one person, ha’Moshiach Yeshua, who we’ve shown you many times here was resurrected and so lives, and is able therefore to return to complete the second role of Moshach ben Dovid. He completed the first role of the Suffering Servant” of Isaiah 53, Moshiach ben Yoseph in His life, death and resurrection; and His ascension into the heavens. Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 22, 2018 7:24:37 GMT -8
Another thing that I've been trying to delicately bring up lately is your assertion that Theodor Herzl is a type of messianic figure maranguape.
I studied political science in the late 90's when Israel was not so disparaged in this country. Now, I know there's a lot of hostility on university campuses. Even then though, based on my learning and understanding, modern day Zionism from the world's perspective is simply a solution to political social problem in Europe after WWII. It may have gained momentum and support from evangelical Christian biblical values, but politically speaking it was not ultimately okayed politically because of G-d or biblical ideals.
Europe had created a situation that it couldn't deal with. Displaced Jews, betrayed by European society, homes and property stolen - there was no where in Europe for them to really return to without causing great social upheaval. It wasn't about G-d or blessing Israel politically. It was a political solution to social issues no one really knew how to deal with - displaced, betrayed people they would be responsible for returnthing to some level of their former lives, belongings, jobs.
Also, regarding Herzl's point of view and method. The Messiah will not in any way seek the approval or permission of the world. He will not work within the confines of worldly systems of government. He will not negotiate or explain Himself. There will be no doubt G-d is with Israel and the land is theirs. Also the primary motivation for the return of the people will be to glorify G-d in victory and to return to Torah.
Although I believe G-d is using modern day Zionism to accomplish His plans, it simply isn't accomplishing all of His plans. I will never argue with Jewish people's right to the land. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Messianic vision of what this return looks like. Modern day Zionism is not fulfilling that the way Yeshua will.
In the end, there will be no one for Israel to turn to but G-d. After the anti-Christ is denied by Israel, the world turns on Israel. The world will have already killed the people like us off. We are told it will be the worst times Israel has seen - Jacob's trouble, and the entire world is against Israel. Then a remnant calls on Yeshua and is saved while the world is subdued.
I say that to at least give people context to understand when it happens because based on what I've heard, Israel is not being taught to expect the worst times are yet to come. However, the scripture and Yeshua both speak to this truth. Also, I think if you look at what's happening in the world, you will see that this is the direction it's heading. The world is increasingly against Israel. Israel continues to try and gain world's recognition, but this is never what G-d calls Israel to do. We are told the anti-Christ brings a Temple and a false peace seeming to answer Israel's problems; but when Israel denies His authority, Jacob's trouble ensues.
In the end, Israel will have no one but G-d to turn to, and it will be the world that submits as G-d is revealed and Israel is glorified through His faithfulness. This is not only what prophecy speaks about, but it's more consistent with biblical patterns and history. Israel turns from worldly securities and alliances, and the world aknowledges that Israel needs no ones permission or acceptance because G-d is apparent and revealed undeniably.He saves His people and glorifies them despite the world. Modern day Zionism did pretty much the opposite by looking to the world for a way and approval. I'm not criticizing it because I see the need. I'm just saying Jewish people should expect more based on biblical messianic descriptions. It will be total and undeniable victory accompanied by a Torah rule.
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Post by Questor on Sept 26, 2018 20:37:58 GMT -8
Although I believe G-d is using modern day Zionism to accomplish His plans, it simply isn't accomplishing all of His plans. I will never argue with Jewish people's right to the land. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Messianic vision of what this return looks like. Modern day Zionism is not fulfilling that the way Yeshua will. In the end, there will be no one for Israel to turn to but G-d. After the anti-Christ is denied by Israel, the world turns on Israel. The world will have already killed the people like us off. We are told it will be the worst times Israel has seen - Jacob's trouble, and the entire world is against Israel. Then a remnant calls on Yeshua and is saved while the world is subdued.
Where do you see the A/C coming from? We have, currently, Rome as always (Currently the US and other cubs of England...plus England, as if it's not all the same thing, always moving from country to country), and a Prince to come, who is/becomes the A/C, who ensures Israel is able to:
1) have peace
2) Assemble all the parts of the waiting Temple wherever the peace-agreement allows it
3) Begin the SacrificesPresuming all that happens as stated, we then have: 4) A stopping of Sacrifices by the guy who made the Peace 5) Peacemaker becomes G-d by fiat 6) Israel-remnant refuses said Prince, and those who have been paying attention, get out of Judea...again. 7) Israel-Remnant is protected by G-d in the Wilderness 8) A/C freaks out on the whole world, demanding worship. 9) War ensues all around Israel, and everywhere else in gradually increasing nastiness And eventually, Mashiach rides to the rescue, and stops A/C but begins the actual wrath of G-d, which is short but nasty...beating up all attackers of Judea; and throwing large pieces of ice at anyone not turning towards him. Feel free to tear apart the scenario...this is the most common line of thinking, and I am not wedded to it. But where is the A/C coming from? Outside Judea, or inside? |
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Post by Questor on Sept 26, 2018 21:21:46 GMT -8
Maybe this is a translation issue, but just wondering, how does mainstream Judaism understand Isaiah 53:5-6..... "But he was wounded because of our transgressions; he was crushed because of our iniquities; the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes, we are healed. All we like sheep did go astray, we turned everyone to his own way, and the LORD hath made to light on him, the iniquity of us all." Who do they think the "our", "we" and the "us" is referring to?
The last anti-missionary I argued with pretty much told me that it was about Israel...but would not go into detail...like how on earth the stripes of Israel somehow heals me, or provides me with eternal welfare, or why my transgressions would be put on Israel at all. (at the time of said conversation, I did not know I had any Jewishness except through Yeshua.)
Granted, I have a 'supposed' right of return to Israel so long as I am not Mashiachim, thus one might say I am of Israel through the blood instead of through Yeshua (Although that doesn't really work out on the ground) but I am not seeing anything in scripture that supposes Israel can do anything for anyone as Israel.
Only G-d can do that for Israel, or for the Nations, and did, but getting Mainstream Judaism to consider the matter is really laying out the question of Mashiach. Who is he, and how do we know he is the one?
They want the promised Kingdom, the promises given to Abraham, and then do not provide any ideas I have found in Scripture for who the King is, except one of the line of Judah, through David via Soloman....which presumably could have been me in my young years...to show how foolish the idea is.
Certainly, G-d can call anyone to the Throne of David from his descendants, and could put that person in the right place at the right time, but without supernatural power, how is he to get anything done with Israel, and with the world...presuming anyone would let him?
And how would Israel stand in for G-d?
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 27, 2018 6:43:28 GMT -8
Although I believe G-d is using modern day Zionism to accomplish His plans, it simply isn't accomplishing all of His plans. I will never argue with Jewish people's right to the land. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the Messianic vision of what this return looks like. Modern day Zionism is not fulfilling that the way Yeshua will. In the end, there will be no one for Israel to turn to but G-d. After the anti-Christ is denied by Israel, the world turns on Israel. The world will have already killed the people like us off. We are told it will be the worst times Israel has seen - Jacob's trouble, and the entire world is against Israel. Then a remnant calls on Yeshua and is saved while the world is subdued.
Where do you see the A/C coming from? We have, currently, Rome as always (Currently the US and other cubs of England...plus England, as if it's not all the same thing, always moving from country to country), and a Prince to come, who is/becomes the A/C, who ensures Israel is able to:
1) have peace
2) Assemble all the parts of the waiting Temple wherever the peace-agreement allows it
3) Begin the SacrificesPresuming all that happens as stated, we then have: 4) A stopping of Sacrifices by the guy who made the Peace 5) Peacemaker becomes G-d by fiat 6) Israel-remnant refuses said Prince, and those who have been paying attention, get out of Judea...again. 7) Israel-Remnant is protected by G-d in the Wilderness 8) A/C freaks out on the whole world, demanding worship. 9) War ensues all around Israel, and everywhere else in gradually increasing nastiness And eventually, Mashiach rides to the rescue, and stops A/C but begins the actual wrath of G-d, which is short but nasty...beating up all attackers of Judea; and throwing large pieces of ice at anyone not turning towards him. Feel free to tear apart the scenario...this is the most common line of thinking, and I am not wedded to it. But where is the A/C coming from? Outside Judea, or inside? I'm not sure. I need to study it more out. I have learned that the last empire may come out of Europe; perhaps inspired by nazi ideology. I feel bad speaking much more on it because I'm not comfortable trying to represent someone else's teachings, I don't know if I'm allowed to encourage them on here, and I don't feel comfortable doing that anyway because I'm in no position to adequately defend them. I'm afraid I would misrepresent someone else's work that I'm still trying to learn from and cause confusion or convolute his teachings. Meanwhile, don't give me credit for someone else's work and wisdom I've only been able to learn from. I've always struggled to pull Daniel and Revelations together, and this teacher has helped a lot. I simply need to confirm my own understanding further to feel confident enough in it. One thing that keeps coming up for me personally, and I try to keep in tune with G-d but admittedly could just be paranoid, is to be wary of someone political who is pro-returning people to the land. I'll support it, trusting G-d, but I'll watch that person. As G-d returns people to the land, it may be that satan switches his tactic to himself encourage it so as to exploit it. I worry it will be like, if they don't follow me, I'll have them in the same place. I'm almost too scared to even say that, but I personally, would watch out for that one. I don't know if G-d put that in my heart or I'm just paranoid and cynical. G-d help us, protect Israel, this really scares me. |
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Post by alon on Sept 27, 2018 12:02:48 GMT -8
Rav S did a teaching on this. Some of his highlights and my own thoughts:
2 Thessalonians 2:4 (KJV) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
The AC claims to be G-d Almighty, setting himself above every living being.
We are told the ethnicity of the AC:
Micah 5:5-6 (KJV) And this man shall be the peace, when the Assyrian shall come into our land: and when he shall tread in our palaces, then shall we raise against him seven shepherds, and eight principal men. And they shall waste the land of Assyria with the sword, and the land of Nimrod in the entrances thereof: thus shall he deliver us from the Assyrian, when he cometh into our land, and when he treadeth within our borders.
Isaiah 30:31-33 (KJV) For through the voice of the Lord shall the Assyrian be beaten down, which smote with a rod. And in every place where the grounded staff shall pass, which the Lord shall lay upon him, it shall be with tabrets and harps: and in battles of shaking will he fight with it. For Tophet is ordained of old; yea, for the king it is prepared; he hath made it deep and large: the pile thereof is fire and much wood; the breath of the Lord, like a stream of brimstone, doth kindle it.
Both passages speak of the “Assyrian;” singular; one man. They are both talking about an individual.
Assyria and Israel have fought, and Assyria has invaded Israel. But they never took Tzion, and Israel has never invaded Assyria. So this is prophetic of the end times. But where and what is Assyria?
Assyria, or the Assyrian Empire was a Mesopotamian, Semitic kingdom/empire of the ancient Near East (northeastern Iraq), existing as the Assur city-state from around the 25th century BCE, until its collapse as an empire between 612 BCE and 609 BCE. So, if Assyria hasn’t existed for millennia, how can the AC be Assyrian?
They still exist as a people. Some 550,000 Assyrians live in Europe, an estimated 877,000 in Syria, and over 5,000 in Chicago alone. There are about 4.5 million worldwide. They are not Syrians nor Arabs nor Europeans, having maintained a continuous and separate identity and language. Miss Canada 2005, Ramona Amiri is Assyrian, as was Adam Benjamin Jr., Congressional Representative from Indiana. And in 1966 another Assyrian, Munir Redfa, defected by flying an Iraqi MiG-21 to Israel.
However, being a dispersed people, we could still speculate on where this Assyrian will come from. I don't choose to do that because it might skew my perception if the event occurs in my lifetime. I prefer to watch for an Assyrian of any stripe, not a particular Assyrian.
So apparently God does know history- past, present, and future. He knew these proud people would exist for thousands of years after their empire crumbled into dust. And He knows who the AC will be:
“The Assyrian.”
Dan (no Assyrian DNA, I swear) C
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Post by Questor on Sept 27, 2018 14:10:27 GMT -8
Deliberately changing the dialogue...
Where do you see the A/C coming from? We have, currently, Rome as always (Currently the US and other cubs of England...plus England, as if it's not all the same thing, always moving from country to country), and a Prince to come, who is/becomes the A/C, who ensures Israel is able to:
1) have peace
2) Assemble all the parts of the waiting Temple wherever the peace-agreement allows it
3) Begin the SacrificesPresuming all that happens as stated, we then have: 4) A stopping of Sacrifices by the guy who made the Peace 5) Peacemaker becomes G-d by fiat 6) Israel-remnant refuses said Prince, and those who have been paying attention, get out of Judea...again. 7) Israel-Remnant is protected by G-d in the Wilderness 8) A/C freaks out on the whole world, demanding worship. 9) War ensues all around Israel, and everywhere else in gradually increasing nastiness And eventually, Mashiach rides to the rescue, and stops A/C but begins the actual wrath of G-d, which is short but nasty...beating up all attackers of Judea; and throwing large pieces of ice at anyone not turning towards him. Feel free to tear apart the scenario...this is the most common line of thinking, and I am not wedded to it. But where is the A/C coming from? Outside Judea, or inside? I'm not sure. I need to study it more out. I have learned that the last empire may come out of Europe; perhaps inspired by nazi ideology. I feel bad speaking much more on it because I'm not comfortable trying to represent someone else's teachings, I don't know if I'm allowed to encourage them on here, and I don't feel comfortable doing that anyway because I'm in no position to adequately defend them. I'm afraid I would misrepresent someone else's work that I'm still trying to learn from and cause confusion or convolute his teachings. Meanwhile, don't give me credit for someone else's work and wisdom I've only been able to learn from. I've always struggled to pull Daniel and Revelations together, and this teacher has helped a lot. I simply need to confirm my own understanding further to feel confident enough in it. One thing that keeps coming up for me personally, and I try to keep in tune with G-d but admittedly could just be paranoid, is to be wary of someone political who is pro-returning people to the land. I'll support it, trusting G-d, but I'll watch that person. As G-d returns people to the land, it may be that satan switches his tactic to himself encourage it so as to exploit it. I worry it will be like, if they don't follow me, I'll have them in the same place. I'm almost too scared to even say that, but I personally, would watch out for that one. I don't know if G-d put that in my heart or I'm just paranoid and cynical. G-d help us, protect Israel, this really scares me.
America currently is moving to help achieve Israel's rights to decide her own future, with political, economic and military help, but with every change of political wind, that commitment changes too, perhaps fortunately for Americans not wanting to be used to push Israel to any eschatological conclusion by supporting the wrong political candidates.
Fortunately, before Michael can stand aside, and allow events to proceed, G-d has to decide it is time for him to do so.
What is interesting to me is how important all the people seem at the top of the heap for a year or two, and then fade away with time. It takes time for the all the elements of political and economic forces to settle out, even to create the ability for any of the above scenario's to take place, but it is terrifying to watch then seem to be doing so.
It would be helpful if we knew where to look for the Prince to come, but perhaps it is meant to be a stunning surprise. I am torn between wanting it to be over with, and with wanting not to be bothered with any of these expected realities.
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- there are 70 faces to 
