Alcohol

[alon]

I was asked by an acquaintance who is a mainstream pastor what the Messianic position on wine was. He is absolutely against consuming alcohol in any form and for any reason. He really wanted to know if I had information on the various kinds of wine. I went through this with my father, a Southern Baptist minister, for years. So I know where he is going with this. He wants to prove that anywhere it says wine, except where it says someone got drunk and made a butt of himself, it meant grape juice.

Like anything Hebrew, you do have to take what is said in context to get to the meaning. So there is a grain of truth there. However my opinion is that to arbitrarily assign the meaning then look at context will bias the interpretation.

I told him I couldn't speak for all Messianics, but I believe alcohol in moderation is not a sin, and that we were meant to relax sometimes. But I said I'd send him some scriptures and he could decide for himself. I'll get my reply from my email and post it here, but meanwhile I was curious as to what everyone else thinks about it.

Any ideas? Opinions?

Dan C

[alon]

My reply to him:

Here are some obscure scriptures which are seldom considered when the subject of alcohol is brought up. Some the Rabbi has taught on, so he may also bring them up. But I thought I'd send them to you anyhow while you wait.

Devarim 14:23-26 (Orthodox Jewish Bible- OJB) 23 And thou shalt eat before Hashem Eloheicha, in the place which He shall choose to place Shmo there, the ma’aser (tithe) of thy dagan (grain), of thy tirosh (new wine), and of thine yitzhar (fresh oil), and the bekhorot (firstlings) of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to stand in awe of Hashem Eloheicha always. 24 And if the journey be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which Hashem Eloheicha shall choose to set Shmo there, when Hashem Eloheicha hath blessed thee; 25 Then shalt thou exchange it for kesef, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which Hashem Eloheicha shall choose; 26 And thou shalt spend that kesef for whatsoever thy nefesh desireth after, for cattle, or for sheep, or for yayin, or for shekhar (fermented drink), or for whatsoever thy nefesh desireth; and thou shalt eat there before Hashem Eloheicha, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household,

Deu 14:23-26 (ESV) 23 And before the LORD your God, in the place that he will choose, to make his name dwell there, you shall eat the tithe of your grain, of your wine, and of your oil, and the firstborn of your herd and flock, that you may learn to fear the LORD your God always. 24 And if the way is too long for you, so that you are not able to carry the tithe, when the LORD your God blesses you, because the place is too far from you, which the LORD your God chooses, to set his name there, 25 then you shall turn it into money and bind up the money in your hand and go to the place that the LORD your God chooses 26 and spend the money for whatever you desire--oxen or sheep or wine or strong drink, whatever your appetite craves. And you shall eat there before the LORD your God and rejoice, you and your household.


Psalm 104:15 (ESV) 15 and wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man's heart.

Wine to gladden the heart sounds like alcoholic wine. Look at it like this- Near-Beer never made me the least bit glad! And grape juice might taste good, but does it make me happy? Only if it sits a while and ferments!

Mishle 31:6-7 (OJB) 6 Give strong drink unto him that is ready to perish, and yayin unto those that be of bitter nefesh. 7 Let him drink, and forget his poverty, and remember his amal (misery) no more.

Prov 31:6-7 (ESV) 6 Give strong drink to the one who is perishing, and wine to those in bitter distress; 7 let them drink and forget their poverty and remember their misery no more.

Grape juice never did that for anyone! Now, it is important to read this in context, as it is preceded by the injunction "4 It is not for kings, O Lemuel, it is not for kings to drink wine, or for rulers to take strong drink, 5 lest they drink and forget what has been decreed and pervert the rights of all the afflicted." So this is not license for anyone who had a bad day to go out and get drunk! But it does instruct us to act with compassion towards those less fortunate, and clearly says to give them strong drink. This amounts to a commandment to use alcohol in some cases!

Mattityahu 11:19 (OJB) The Ben HaAdam [Moshiach] came eating and drinking, and they say, Hinei! A zolel (glutton) and a shikkor (drunkard), a friend of mochesim (tax collectors) and choteim (sinners). Yet, Chochmah (Wisdom) is vindicated by her maasim.

Mat 11:19 (ESV) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds."

Luke 7:34 (ESV) The Son of Man has come eating and drinking, and you say, 'Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!'

That they would accuse Yeshua of being a drunkard would imply that He was drinking alcoholic beverages. I know this is inductive reasoning, which is not concrete prof. However when it supports the rest of scripture on the subject it is compelling evidence. Note too it was only the accusation; His detractors were slinging mud. They were lying to discredit Yeshua. To work, there must be an element of truth in the lie. Had there been no alcohol, or had Yeshua not drank any, then they risk being exposed as the liars. So probably Yeshua drank, or at the very least there was alcohol present at the table, but absolutely He did not get drunk!

Wine was used at the Pesach meal:

Lev 23:13 And the meat offering thereof shall be two tenth deals of fine flour mingled with oil, an offering made by fire unto the LORD for a sweet savour: and the drink offering thereof shall be of wine, the fourth part of an hin.

H3196 yayin yah'-yin From an unused root meaning to effervesce; wine (as fermented); by implication intoxication: - banqueting, wine, wine [-bibber].

I don't remember where, but I do remember it being mentioned in the commentary of my JPS Study TNK that wine was considered a permissible substitute for blood. Indeed (and you won't find this in the aforementioned tome ) Yeshua lifted the third cup, the cup of redemption, and said "for this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins." Mat 26:28.

In Yeshua,

Dan

[Miykhael]

B"H
This might help. k003.kiwi6.com/hotlink/8jfxz3e775/isdrinkingalcoholkosher.mp3

[jimmie]

I like the approach used in the recording, in which God places limits on the use of wine. It is similar to the LORD placing limits on divorce. Divorce is allowed because of the hardness or men’s hearts. Alon pointed out Deu 14:23-26. Do we see any restrictions placed upon wine in that passage? The first restriction is to do it “before the LORD your God”. In other words, your actions must always be acceptable before the LORD. The second is timing. Wine is allowed during the Lord’s Feast times. This passage speaks of consuming wine only during feasts. Allowable consumption of wine at other times cannot be proven by this passage. The third restriction is your personal desire. If you don’t like wine then don’t drink it. Eli –a gluten- rebuked Hannah because he thought she was drunk during the feast days. So apparently the priests, who were forbidden to consume wine while they ministered the priest office, would monitor the feasters to see that they did not get drunk during the feasts.
I have never understood how Prov. 31:6-7 could be used as a license to drink wine. As Alon points out, it is in the context of a speech given to a king in which the king in enjoined from drinking wine. Now as I understand salvation, we are called to be kings and priests of the LORD not to a state of perishing or bitter distress. So I’m going to leave the wine to those that are in a lost state and conduct myself as a king or priest of the LORD.
And to help with the wine meant grape juice argument. Consider this. It does at times. The English word “wine” is used to translate four Hebrew words. Yayin is only one of the words. At least two of the other words cannot mean intoxicating drink. Do to computer problems, I am without any bible reference tools at this time and cannot show share the revelent words and scripture. I am sure the knowledge of these words and scriptures could be used to support the idea that wine is not always intoxicating.

Jimmie