Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73 
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 7, 2014 9:58:52 GMT -8
ב’’ה Bitterness Of Suffering... Rabbi Moshe of Kobryn taught: “When a man suffers, he ought not to say, ‘That’s bad! That’s bad!’ Nothing that God imposes upon man is bad. It is all right to say ‘That’s bitter!’, though, for among medicines there are some that are made with bitter herbs.”  Tale This reminds me what we read in Romim, Romans 8:28-30 Furthermore, we know that HASHEM causes everything to work together for the good of those who love HASHEM and are called in accordance with his purpose; because those whom he knew in advance, he also determined in advance would be conformed to the pattern of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers; and those whom he thus determined in advance, he also called; and those whom he called, he also caused to be considered righteous; and those whom he caused to be considered righteous he also glorified! |
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 7, 2014 22:28:55 GMT -8
I think there is a difference between G-d "imposing" suffering on someone, and G-d allowing someone to suffer because they are outside his will. Some people simply refuse the grace of G-d, and suffer for the sake of sin. In this case their suffering accomplishes nothing but more suffering. I would say 'that's bad, that's bad"  , but I think maybe the distinction is that man imposes it on himself.
Believers need to consider the suffering he imposes on us like an offering. Just like we are to give to him humbly, we should accept all that comes from him humbly. Beautifully, that happens perfectly when we take whatever he gives, and simply hand it back to him. So suffering can be a gift. But only if we give it back to him, in faith, and knowing that he will give it purpose. And,.... how perfectly our Yeshua accomplished just that!
(People should know, that fumbling my way through an idea only to find that G-d couldn't have already made it more obvious is pretty much how I go.) |
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 8, 2014 8:40:16 GMT -8
ב’’ה
What about Job?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 8, 2014 10:27:04 GMT -8
What about Job? His suffering glorified G-d. Evil lost because he sought the will of G-d. I think the Rabbi's comment speaks to the sufferings of people who seek the will of G-d just like Job, but not necessarily to the suffering of people who are outside the will of G-d. I think they may very well impose unnecessary suffering on themselves that may only serve sin. I do believe that when someone repents, G-d will turn all past bad choices and their consequences to his glory, but they have to repent and seek him faithfully. People have the choice to leave G-d out, and if they do, I think they will suffer in ways that he would have prevented had they not. If you are in His will, your suffering is meant for your strength and his glory. There is only purposeful suffering. If you are outside his will, I think it gets a little more complicated, and the purpose your suffering will serve depends on whether you repent or continue following a sinful path.
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 8, 2014 11:15:47 GMT -8
ב’’ה
What about what about this?
Kefa Alef, 1 Peter4:17-19 For the time has come for the judgment to begin. It begins with the household of HASHEM; and if it starts with us, what will the outcome be for those who are disobeying HASHEM’s Good News?— “If the righteous is barely delivered, where will the ungodly and sinful end up?” So let those who are suffering according to HASHEM’s will entrust themselves to a faithful Creator by continuing to do what is good.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 8, 2014 14:18:00 GMT -8
Are we disagreeing? I am distinguishing between suffering according to the will of G-d and suffering as a consequence of disobedience. I feel like that is what this verse is getting at. What's your take on the verse. The chapter is pretty interesting on the subject. I have the New King James version, so I am not going to quote the verse, but please read 1 Peter 4:15-16. (I am going to get a different Bible, but haven't figured out which one.)
I feel like this is an example of what I am trying to get at; the difference between suffering for the sake of G-d's will and suffering because you are outside of his will. If you are outside of his will, you suffer for it. A repentant person glorifies G-d by finding their way back to his will, but If you fail to repent, what good is there in your suffering?
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 9, 2014 12:05:52 GMT -8
Regarding Job, I think it's also interesting to note that it wasn't so much that G-d imposed suffering on him, it was that he allowed it. It wasn't G-d hurting Job. It was Satan, and Satan had to ask G-d for permission. I find that reassuring.
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Post by jimmie on Dec 9, 2014 15:02:16 GMT -8
... the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away... Job 1:21
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 10, 2014 7:43:18 GMT -8
Okay, I am going to reread Job, but I am still think this verse may speak to what I am trying to get at. The sovereignty of G-d is in itself a protection. Nothing can be taken that he will not allow, but nothing is given that's not from him to begin with. So Job is expressing great humility and saying all I lost belonged to G-d anyway. Job understood the blessing. I think sometimes us asking "why" can cross the lines into an assumption that G-d somehow owes us. If we are in his will, we should ask the question with the assumption he has a purpose that in the end is to give. We know his will is life, and we should ask the question knowing the suffering we endure will serve that purpose. So suffering is a consequence of death and the world we live in, but in his wisdom he uses even suffering for the sake of the life he gives. I think that's different than imposing it. I think it's more like managing it. |
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Post by alon on Dec 10, 2014 13:56:19 GMT -8
Ex 4:11 ADONAI answered him, "Who gives a person a mouth? Who makes a person dumb or deaf, keen-sighted or blind? Isn't it I, ADONAI?
HaShem not only causes some disabilities, He makes no bones in taking credit for them! It is His perogotive as the sovereign God to do as He pleases for His own purposes.
Dan C
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 11, 2014 9:55:41 GMT -8
This topic has really caused me to think. Just to provide some context for my thoughts.... Last night I was thinking about the curses he imposed after the disobedience in the garden; trying to understand the purpose in the punishment. Specifically, I had a hard time understanding the purpose in increasing the pains of childbirth. I think it has something to do with preserving its holiness. The best I could come up with is that a g-dly women will turn to him more fully and he is honored. It is remembered as his blessing. Whereas women who try to exclude him from the blessing, are kept from self-glory because of the pain and helplessness. Ultimately, I think he is forcing humility while preserving his holy intentions. So, alright, it took me a while, but I concluded he does "impose" suffering.  Seems rather obvious now, but I had to go about the thinking. He is just and merciful; so I need to contemplate the balance between those two attributes. It was humanity who asked for him to show us what suffering means. So, he is just and merciful in giving the answer; and as Creator, he is just and merciful in answering in a way that preserves his will. |
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
Posts: 73
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Post by Miykhael on Dec 13, 2014 22:25:46 GMT -8
B”H
I reminded of (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y’sha’ Yahu Isaiah 53 . That HaShem impose suffering on Yeshua for a good purpose.
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Post by Elizabeth on Dec 14, 2014 8:42:37 GMT -8
Thank you! It all comes together again in our Yeshua, the picture of His justice and His mercy all in one face; absolutely amazing! Something I knew, but didn't really understand.
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Post by alon on Dec 14, 2014 13:56:12 GMT -8
B”H I reminded of (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y’sha’ Yahu Isaiah 53 . That HaShem impose suffering on Yeshua for a good purpose.
Dan C |
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Post by jimmie on Dec 15, 2014 7:05:24 GMT -8
Thank you! It all comes together again in our Yeshua, the picture of His justice and His mercy all in one face; absolutely amazing! Something I knew, but didn't really understand. Amen! |
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Tale
, but I think maybe the distinction is that man imposes it on himself. 
- there are 70 faces to 
Seems rather obvious now, but I had to go about the thinking. He is just and merciful; so I need to contemplate the balance between those two attributes. It was humanity who asked for him to show us what suffering means. So, he is just and merciful in giving the answer; and as Creator, he is just and merciful in answering in a way that preserves his will.
