The Law?

[Nachshon]

seeker2 said:

Wow...I didn't know I wasn't suposed to drive a car! I mean, I knew not to go to the mall or across town for leisure or errand, but I did not put going to synagogue into that catagory! I would never be able to go then as I live in the suburbs. Judging with the sme strictness, I also couldn't use my computer to listen online, and even if I did, my children would be missing their training in shabbat school....Hmmmm....I don't know about this one guys. It seems more harm than good is done with this interpretation. I mean, Moses is taught weekly in the synagogues, but first you have to get there!!! I think what we need to judge here is priority because both can't exsist (in my case) at the same time. Is this a case of eating the showbread and picking grain on shabbat?? Are we to starve ourselves in this way to keep the Letter of the shabbat??? We need to think about this as I am afraid for us if we are not able to drive to synagogue. I am afraid we will be weakened and harm will come to us and our congregations and our overall mission. (and no way can we move closer to our meeting place!) If possible we should walk...no question. But if not, what should we do? ;D

No, a computor is a different thing. It doesn't operate on an actual fire. A car does, indeed. Why else is it called an internal combustion engine?
I don't think it's at all in the same category. Eating showbread had to do with preservation of life. If your children miss out on Sabbath school, well, Scripture tells us it's your job to teach your children, not someone else's. (sorry, a homeschool child here. )
I have gotten more food since I started feeding myself than I ever did eating what other people fed me. It's like fast food as opposed to eating at home. I only have one Rabbi. I've found that He is the only Rav I need.
I don't mean this as an attack. I'm just trying to offer an alternative way of doing things.

Shalom,
Nachshon

[Nachshon]

messimom said:

C'mon guys. I have to agree with Reuel and Seeker here. There used to be a lot more involved in lighting a fire/traveling to schul than there is now. It was the spirit of the law here, not the letter. In those times you lived near a schul because you tried to live in a walled village or otherwise populated area, otherwise you were in danger of being attacked and killed by marauders. In our day and age driving a car isn't work unless you are getting PAID or perhaps you have an old crank start car and then its not easy and you'd break a sweat perhaps. Its rediculious to take that strict of an interpretation. If I wanted to then, I could say that part of my "job" as a mom is to change diapers...I definitely don't enjoy it, and if I don't do it my daughter isn't in mortal danger, so therefore, I shouldn't change a diaper on shabbat? I believe YHVH gave us wisdom to judge for ourselves in these small matters.

Shalom

Messimom

No one is saying it is work. We are saying that it is lighting a fire, which is also forbidden on Shabbat.

[R' Y'hoshua Moshe]

Are we to starve ourselves in this way to keep the Letter of the shabbat???

I don't even think it is even keeping the letter by what they are suggesting. There are several examples of fires being lit on Shabbat that this passage is not addressing. What about a lightning strike on a Shabbat that causes a fire?? Is YHVH in violation of His own command? It seems He would be if it actually was what the command is talking about...which it is not. The command is -directly- tied to doing work and thus should be interpreted as such. Therefore, doing any work to kindle a fire is prohibited...simple as that. In Yisrael's day up until recently this pretty much covered all fire starting....But, I believe we have some unique situations today that this command was not meant to regulate.

At any rate, this thread is getting off track. Anymore off subject posts will be deleted. Please refer future posts dealing with this subject to the thread dealing with it.

Shalom alyechem chaverim,

Reuel

[shammuel]

Shalom!

I have a question: The rabbis (tora says that? where?) say that if my live is in danger I can broke the Tora (anything to sustain live)... what I dont't understand is why a lot of people has died for they're faith and for the Tora (for example the women whit 7 sons, from Macabei; or the first messianic belivers in the persecution times)?

I don't want to be wrong understand...I am wery happy to learn from you...I never attack you!!!

Adonai bless you all!

Thank you!

[shammuel]

I want to know your opinion on marriage between relatives. Specifically prohibited are the degrees of relationship concerning marriage? Can cousins to marry each other? And so on? What the says about these things?

Thank you from the heart!

[Mark]

What you're looking for is found in Leviticus 18:7-18 and Leviticus 20:19-21. The prohibition is against brothers and sisters, aunts and uncles, Mom and Dad; but stops short of disallowing union between cousins.

Rabbinically, there are judgments that encourage (and in some cases require) the marriage between cousins or second cousins so as to preserve tribal integrity, or among the diaspora, the Jewish line.

However, in our present culture, there is also the requirement to honor the judgments of one's father and mother. This is not a subject that I would have warm fuzzies on drawing a hard-line either way.

[shammuel]

Shalom!

Old rabbi has changed some things in the moed's calendar for example Pesah (15 Nisan) never fall in 2, 4 or 6 day in the week.

or

"Rosh Hashana never falls on a Sunday because that would mean that Hoshana Rabba (the last day of Sukkot, which always falls on 21 Tishri) would fall on a Saturday, which would not be desirable. In talmudic times, Hoshana Rabba was regarded as a day much like Yom Kippur. It brought to an end the long holiday period beginning with Rosh Hashana, and was considered to be the one final opportunity to reverse an unfavorable decree issued against the individual on the High Holidays. If Hoshana Rabba were to fall on the Sabbath, this would interfere with the ceremony of beating a bunch of hoshanot (willows) during the synagogue services, an action forbidden on the Sabbath [Both the action of beating the willow-twigs, and the forbiddance thereof on the Sabbath, are by later rabbinical decree, not by God]. Beating the willows was an act of self-flagellation and a sign of remorse, similar to the malkot ceremony practiced on Yom Kippur" (Alfred J. Kolatch, The Jewish Book of WHY, p.228)

Do we keep the feasts at the right time?

[alon]

An old post, but it raises some questions which cause confusion in Messianic circles.

First off, the "Law"- obviously when we say that about the Bible we think "." Well, yes, and no. The ancient Hebrew doesn't translate directly into English. It carries the connotations of law, but also could be more accurately translated as instructions. The word (תורה), is derived from a root used in archery, yareh- to hit the mark with an arrow. Therefore , one of the derivatives of this root, is the arrow aimed at the mark. The target is God's truth and how we relate to Him. The is designed to teach us the truth about God and His instructions for holy living. So means direction, teaching, or instruction.

As has been said, man has laws and instructions as well. And the Rabbis did put fences around the instructions of God so as to make it less likely for unintentional sin to occur. There is a national as well as an individual salvation, a concept we as a nation have lost to our detriment. So these man made "laws" were not meant to just control people or make their lives difficult. They were to protect the nation from judgment due to unintentional transgressions by too many people. They were made with good intentions and were initially a good thing. However, men being men, they got carried away with it and:

Mat 23:13 (KJV) But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

These fences got to the point no one could keep them all. People were getting discouraged and leaving the faith. As I understand it this is still happening in Israel and around the world today! So we as Meshiachim will look at what the Rabbis have written and the fences they've set in place; but we are not bound to keep them all. I put a fence on Shabbat or every time I will run up against it. On the other hand I see no problem eating a cheese-burger, for instance (that boil a kid in mothers milk thing). So what about driving? Yes, it creates a spark. However as R Reuel has said, a.) this is a situation the Rabbis of old could not have anticipated, and b.) it is not work in the strictest sense, and c.) the instances where this was prohibited had nothing to do with travel. So now we need to address halacha- Rabbinical rulings on how we keep .

The Rabbis study and interpret what is written and apply it to timely as well as regional circumstances to come up with rulings on how we should live.

Matthew 16:18-19 (ESV) And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.  I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.”

Most Christian pastors miss this, but Peter just got ordained right there! He was made a Sheliach Tzibur, a spokesman  or representative for Yeshua and a Rabbi. When Yeshua said "and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven" He gave Peter the authority to make halacha. So too our Rabbis today have this authority. I would wager, for example, Russian Jews in December doggone well make fires for heating and there is no sin in it. Maybe not so much Jews in Israel in July.

Halacha for both Synagogue Chavurat haMashiach (our parent synagogue here) and Beit Aveinu (where I attend) is that you may drive to Shabbat services as well as other community functions. Those coming into Messianic fellowship today are widely dispersed, and good Messianic synagogues and Rabbis are few and far between. So the greater mitzvah is to fellowship together- and we drive to do that. And unless you are a Messianic Rabbi all other discussion on this is futile. Now if your synagogue follows a different halacha, then do as they say. Even tell us what it is and why it is done that way. But arguing against it here is futile, as you don't have the authority. Sorry, but then neither do I so ...

What is this mitzvah thing I said? Primarily it means the precepts (rules, principles, teachings) and commandments of God. It can also mean a good deed, which we are commanded to do. When we see in light of these mitzvoth (plural of mitzvah) it isn't so cut and dried. The idea that "a rule is a rule and a law is a law and never the twain shall be broken" is a Greek and westernized concept. The Hebrews thought in terms of a hierarchy of mitzvoth. The highest mitzvoth, for example, is the preservation of life. So if you are stranded on an island and all you have to eat is shellfish, then there is no sin in eating them. On the other hand if you are invited to a clambake and you're just "dieing" to go and you reeeeealy want to eat some clams; well, that IS sin. The higher mitzvah is to not eat the clams- and a really good fence in this situation is not to go where you are tempted to partake.

Now we come to the New Testament. This term in itself implies a new legal document, so we can see the mindset of those who translated the B'rith Chadashah from Hebrew to Greek right off the bat. The term was first used by Tertullian (155 – 240 AD), although the Septuagint translates b'rith chadash in Jer 31:31 as "new testament." Not surprising as they were translating Hebrew to Greek there too. Here we have a few problems, the first being the Hebrew documents which were to make up this book were first translated, and often rewritten to a degree, by Greek translators into Koine Greek- the lowest form of Greek there is (and used primarily for translations). So wherever we see the term law we must suspect that they mean unless contextually improbable. And there are many places where it is contextually improbable but which Christians interpret it as "law" in order to further their false doctrines. I am speaking primarily of the writings of Rav Sha'ul, or Paul. There was a new doctrine of legalism being taught by one or more of the stringent, extremist sects of that time. They were teaching, among other things, that you had to convert fully to Judaism and keep all the mitzvoth before you could be saved. Rav Sha'ul rightly saw this as the most serious threat to Jews and converts alike, and accordingly he spent a lot of time writing about it and fighting it. The problem was that, as it was a new concept, there was no term for "legalism" in either Hebrew or Greek of that time. So he used the only word he had, which was "law." This is why his writings can sound so convoluted, is he was writing against legalism using the word law, and trying not to disparage the "Law of Moses" while he did so.

So in the "Neeeeewww Testament" the word "law" can mean laws or instructions of God or man, covenant, instruction, or legalism. As always with Hebrew (even after it is translated into Greek) the meaning depends on context.

And what about these other questions? Well, ask your Rabbi or whoever makes halacha for you. If you don't have that, either follow halacha for Syn Chavurat HaMashiach or find a Hillel calendar with feasts and holidays on it an do as they say. And on other things just do the best you can ... which is not ideal, but hey, if you don't want to do what Messianic rabbis say it is sort of where you are left ... that or you could go to Chabad and do whatever the Orthodox Jews say to do.

Dan C