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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 11, 2007 11:32:41 GMT -8
Hi all, My name is Marc and I'm new here. Been looking at the threads and have a question... When discussing the Law what specifically are you referring to? The  ? Marc |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Jan 11, 2007 22:30:52 GMT -8
Shalom Marc, Yes, the word "law" in many instances includes (first five books) of which -all- other scripture is based and has it's roots. But, "law" can refer to a whole host of other ideas. Please let us know if you have any other questions. May Adonai richly bless you, In Yeshua's name, Reuel |
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Post by Mpossoff on Jan 19, 2007 5:54:20 GMT -8
Reuel can you elaborate on the law can refer to a host of other ideas. Marc Shalom Marc, Yes, the word "law" in many instances includes (first five books) of which -all- other scripture is based and has it's roots. But, "law" can refer to a whole host of other ideas. Please let us know if you have any other questions. May Adonai richly bless you, In Yeshua's name, Reuel |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Jan 19, 2007 10:11:06 GMT -8
Shalom Marc, I think what Reuel is trying to relate is context. Depending on context, the word "law" can mean different things. However in almost every case, whether in the TaNaK or the Ketuvim Shliachim (NT) it refers to the . |
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Post by Tzav_laTzav on Jan 27, 2007 21:08:53 GMT -8
Marc, one of the things that helped me, with regard to the Apostolic Writings, was something I did several years ago. I went through them all, using an electronic Bible and one of my Greek texts, marking each one regarding whether or not the direct translation was " " or "law." I probably should not have started this so late tonight, but what I learned was that sometimes, the Scripture obviously intended , sometimes they obviously intended law in general, and sometimes, it was difficult to know what was intended between the two. But an important thing I learned was that my favorite translation made some apparently obvious errors. Doing this little exercise was very revealing, however, and I marked every instance permanently in my favorite Bible. |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 5, 2007 1:51:09 GMT -8
Sorry for being vague. "law" could refer to " ", it could refer to the enactments and instruction of men, it could refer to the "law of sin and death", it could refer to the law of your earthly mother or father...the list could go on and on to which set of laws or governing constraints that are in place in any given situation. It is true that we will mostly use the term here on the forum within the context of the Law of our Heavenly Father. But, sometimes this is blurred when people get confused between the law of God and the laws of the Rabbis. If there is ever any question regarding the context of the use of the word "law" here on the forum, feel free to ask. Shalom, Reuel |
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Post by Mpossoff on Feb 5, 2007 6:19:13 GMT -8
Law of the Rabbi's like when asked on Sabbath..."Did you drive here?"
I believe that is a "man made" law.
Also the most "profound" in scripture is The Court of the Gentiles. That Gentiles had to be separate. No where in scripture does it say to treat Gentiles "like second class citizens".
Do we have to be careful to distinguish which are man made laws and which Laws are from G-d?
Paul I believe made a referance somewhere. He said this is of my own accord. In other words this isn't coming from G-d. Paul made it a point to say that. I believe it might of been about marriage.
Marc
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 5, 2007 8:27:16 GMT -8
Law of the Rabbi's like when asked on Sabbath..."Did you drive here?" I believe that is a "man made" law. Also the most "profound" in scripture is The Court of the Gentiles. That Gentiles had to be separate. No where in scripture does it say to treat Gentiles "like second class citizens". Do we have to be careful to distinguish which are man made laws and which Laws are from G-d? Paul I believe made a referance somewhere. He said this is of my own accord. In other words this isn't coming from G-d. Paul made it a point to say that. I believe it might of been about marriage. Marc Excellent post. Yes, I believe we do need to be careful to distinguish between the Laws of Father, and the laws of man. Father commanded that we not add to or take away from the . Don't get me wrong, there is nothing wrong with tradition. It becomes a problem when we attempt to make Law out of tradition. Shalom, Nachshon |
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Post by Blake on Feb 5, 2007 14:18:59 GMT -8
Driving a vehicle on Shabbos is not a man-made tradition. The clearly says that kindling a fire is forbidden, along with traveling long distances from home. When you start a car engine you spark the fumes in the engine and cause a fire, and every time you press the gas pedal you are adding more fuel to the fire. Clearly and obviously forbidden, no matter what your intentions are. If you want to attend Shul make sure you live within walk distance or simply worship at home or with a minyan. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 5, 2007 18:40:09 GMT -8
Driving a vehicle on Shabbos is not a man-made tradition. The clearly says that kindling a fire is forbidden, along with traveling long distances from home. When you start a car engine you spark the fumes in the engine and cause a fire, and every time you press the gas pedal you are adding more fuel to the fire. Clearly and obviously forbidden, no matter what your intentions are. If you want to attend Shul make sure you live within walk distance or simply worship at home or with a minyan. 100% Correct. |
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Post by Nachshon on Feb 5, 2007 19:26:14 GMT -8
Driving a vehicle on Shabbos is not a man-made tradition. The clearly says that kindling a fire is forbidden, along with traveling long distances from home. When you start a car engine you spark the fumes in the engine and cause a fire, and every time you press the gas pedal you are adding more fuel to the fire. Clearly and obviously forbidden, no matter what your intentions are. If you want to attend Shul make sure you live within walk distance or simply worship at home or with a minyan. I'm sorry, y'all are right. I misread what had been written. |
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Post by Chizuk Emunah on Feb 5, 2007 20:44:40 GMT -8
No worries.  Shalom Achi! |
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Post by R' Y'hoshua Moshe on Feb 6, 2007 22:49:06 GMT -8
I think this is easily debated. I don't believe that driving short distances on Shabbat if necessary is breaking the actual command. Obviously the command did not deal with car driving. Turning the key of car ignition is not what this command is speaking of. It was connected to the prohibitions of work on Shabbat. Take a look.... 'Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be a holy day for you, a Shabbat of solemn rest to YHVH: whoever does any work in it shall be put to death. You shall kindle no fire throughout your habitations on the day of Shabbat.'" - Shemot (Exo.) 35:2-3 Remember the man that gathered the kindling and was put to death?? We must read scripture in proper context and not view Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism as an abosulate authority on all matters within the Messianic community. Besides the Rabbinic Jewish community is not even united on this issue. At any rate, this is not what this thread is about. So, any further discussion regarding kindling a fire on shabbat and what it actually means should be continued in it's own thread. In regards to ...it is the words of Elohim that are authoritative, not the traditions or oral of Orthodox Rabbinic Judaism. Members on this forum should be aware of this as they proceed. Shalom chaverim, Reuel |
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Seeker2
Junior Member
"I will seek Your face in righousness;I shall be satisfied when I awake in Your likeness."
Posts: 53
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Post by Seeker2 on Feb 7, 2007 13:08:27 GMT -8
Wow...I didn't know I wasn't suposed to drive a car! I mean, I knew not to go to the mall or across town for leisure or errand, but I did not put going to synagogue into that catagory! I would never be able to go then as I live in the suburbs. Judging with the sme strictness, I also couldn't use my computer to listen online, and even if I did, my children would be missing their training in shabbat school....Hmmmm....I don't know about this one guys.  It seems more harm than good is done with this interpretation. I mean, Moses is taught weekly in the synagogues, but first you have to get there!!! I think what we need to judge here is priority because both can't exsist (in my case) at the same time. Is this a case of eating the showbread and picking grain on shabbat?? Are we to starve ourselves in this way to keep the Letter of the shabbat??? We need to think about this as I am afraid for us if we are not able to drive to synagogue. I am afraid we will be weakened and harm will come to us and our congregations and our overall mission. (and no way can we move closer to our meeting place!) If possible we should walk...no question. But if not, what should we do?  ;D |
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Post by messimom on Feb 7, 2007 16:20:25 GMT -8
C'mon guys. I have to agree with Reuel and Seeker here. There used to be a lot more involved in lighting a fire/traveling to schul than there is now. It was the spirit of the law here, not the letter. In those times you lived near a schul because you tried to live in a walled village or otherwise populated area, otherwise you were in danger of being attacked and killed by marauders. In our day and age driving a car isn't work unless you are getting PAID or perhaps you have an old crank start car and then its not easy and you'd break a sweat perhaps. Its rediculious to take that strict of an interpretation. If I wanted to then, I could say that part of my "job" as a mom is to change diapers...I definitely don't enjoy it, and if I don't do it my daughter isn't in mortal danger, so therefore, I shouldn't change a diaper on shabbat? I believe YHVH gave us wisdom to judge for ourselves in these small matters.
Shalom
Messimom
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Shalom Achi!
It seems more harm than good is done with this interpretation. I mean, Moses is taught weekly in the synagogues, but first you have to get there!!! I think what we need to judge here is priority because both can't exsist (in my case) at the same time. Is this a case of eating the showbread and picking grain on shabbat?? Are we to starve ourselves in this way to keep the Letter of the shabbat??? We need to think about this as I am afraid for us if we are not able to drive to synagogue. I am afraid we will be weakened and harm will come to us and our congregations and our overall mission. (and no way can we move closer to our meeting place!) If possible we should walk...no question. But if not, what should we do?
;D
