chok

[alon]

The commandment for the Red Heifer, found in Numbers 19, is part of a category of Biblical ordinances called chok, or chukim (pl.). Chukim transcend human reasoning; such as the chok not to wear a mixture of wool and linen. Kosher dietary rules are generally in this category.

Mishpatim, ordinances that seem self-evident (murder, theft, etc.), are different. We readily see why we should not gossip (but usually do it anyway). Then again, if it is true, why shouldn’t we say it? Because it is lashon hara, and we don’t do that! ( Lev 19:16, ◦Psa 34:13; Psa 101:5, ◦Jam 4:11) So I suppose this one could fit either or both categories.

But now when we come across commandments that make no sense to us, do we just “chok” it up to “I can’t because it makes no sense,” or do we just obey it?

Do we, for example try to find clothing that is not blended nor uses different types of thread? (Lev 19:19) Or do we just vainly get the purty one, or expediently get the blended one? Just how obedient should we be?

Dan C

[alon]

No one answered this- I may have hit a nerve! But it is an important question.

When I go out for breakfast, is it OK for me to eat eggs cooked on the same griddle as someone else's' bacon? It is impossible to eat kosher here anyhow, even at home. But should I try more?

My wife wants me to start firing up the grille and having family over on Saturdays again. Should I do it? After all, it is family!

I think maybe we should discuss this one some.

Dan C

[laina]

I don't read anywhere in the tanakh that you can't cook meat with other foods.

But I do read that Pork is not kosher.

Laina

[alon]

Sept 24, 2014 14:49:01 GMT -8 laina said:

I don't read anywhere in the tanakh that you can't cook meat with other foods.

But I do read that Pork is not kosher.

Laina

Very true. I don't eat pork (or other critters that I used to enjoy eating) as a matter of obedience. But it is impossible to know, for example, whether the last thing sliced on the butcher's machine before my beef was a pig. We don't even keep a kosher kitchen at home; which frankly I think is going a bit far in the first place. But where should we draw the line?

Pork and beans is a good example. When all there is to eat is beans on toast, do I take out the pork and eat the beans (which must be saturated with essence of swine) or do I fast?

Dan C

[laina]

I'm guessing you're talking about at a restaurant or at a friends home?

The best way is to bring your own food if at friends or family and explain you're kosher. Eating out could be a little easier if you choose veggies or salad.



The grill doesn't have to be off limits, does it?

[alon]

Cooking food is prohibited on Shabbath(Ex. 16:23). So is the work necessary to build a fire (Num. 15:32-35). You can however maintain a fire and I think warming food that was precooked would be OK. Exodus 35:3 doesn't prohibit this.

Ex 16:23 (CJB) He told them, "This is what ADONAI has said: 'Tomorrow is a holy Shabbat for ADONAI. Bake what you want to bake; boil what you want to boil; and whatever is left over, set aside and keep for the morning.'"

Num 15:32-35 (CJB) While the people of Isra'el were in the desert, they found a man gathering wood on Shabbat. Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moshe, Aharon and the whole congregation. 34 They kept him in custody, because it had not yet been decided what to do to him. Then ADONAI said to Moshe, "This man must be put to death; the entire community is to stone him to death outside the camp."

Ex 35:3 (CJB) "You are not to kindle a fire in any of your homes on Shabbat."

Dan C

[laina]

Ah, right. I see what you mean now. What about encouraging Sunday instead of Saturday?

What did Jesus mean when He and some of the disciples went and picked corn out of the fields to eat and said the Sabbath was made for man? I'll go and see if I can find the scripture reference. Wasn't that action forbidden?

[alon]

Sept 27, 2014 8:19:10 GMT -8 laina said:

Ah, right. I see what you mean now. What about encouraging Sunday instead of Saturday?

What did Jesus mean when He and some of the disciples went and picked corn out of the fields to eat and said the Sabbath was made for man? I'll go and see if I can find the scripture reference. Wasn't that action forbidden?

There is no way anyone can show Yeshua encouraged Sunday worship in this passage, even in their ignorance of 1st cen. Judaism. However when we look into this subject it becomes clear that there is no way this was His intention. And as it happens, I did look into this at one time, so here goes:

Yeshua walking through the “corn”

Mat 12:1-8 1 One Shabbat during that time, Yeshua was walking through some wheat fields. His talmidim were hungry, so they began picking heads of grain and eating them. 2 On seeing this, the P'rushim said to him, "Look! Your talmidim are violating Shabbat!" 3 But he said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry? 4 He entered the House of God and ate the Bread of the Presence!" -- which was prohibited, both to him and to his companions; it is permitted only to the cohanim. 5 "Or haven't you read in the that on Shabbat the cohanim profane Shabbat and yet are blameless? 6 I tell you, there is in this place something greater than the Temple! 7 If you knew what `I want compassion rather than animal-sacrifice' meant, you would not condemn the innocent. 8 For the Son of Man is Lord of Shabbat!"

Mark 2:23 23 One Shabbat Yeshua was passing through some wheat fields; and as they went along, his talmidim began picking heads of grain. 24 The P'rushim said to him, "Look! Why are they violating Shabbat?" 25 He said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? 26 He entered the House of God when Evyatar was cohen gadol and ate the Bread of the Presence," -- which is forbidden for anyone to eat but the cohanim -- "and even gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat; 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of Shabbat."

Luke 6:1-5-- 1 One Shabbat, while Yeshua was passing through some wheat fields, his talmidim began plucking the heads of grain, rubbing them between their hands and eating the seeds. 2 Some of the P'rushim said, "Why are you violating Shabbat?" 3 Yeshua answered them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and his companions were hungry? 4 He entered the House of God and took and ate the Bread of the Presence" -- which no one is permitted to eat but the cohanim. 5 "The Son of Man," he concluded, "is Lord of Shabbat."

“‘Some’ of the P’rushim” is important, “and” is also important.

halacha- the way we walk; has to do with interpretations of Jewish law; rules and traditions. The discussion about Yeshua’s talmidim plucking and eating grain on Shabbat was halachic. It was a debate between the schools of Hilel and Shamai.

Exodus 20:10 “but the seventh day is a Shabbat for ADONAI your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work -not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.”

Deuteronomy 5:14 “but the seventh day is a Shabbat for ADONAI your God. On it you are not to do any kind of work - not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your ox, your donkey or any of your other livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property - so that your male and female servants can rest just as you do.”

Exodus 16:23-29 “23 He told them, "This is what ADONAI has said: 'Tomorrow is a holy Shabbat for ADONAI. Bake what you want to bake; boil what you want to boil; and whatever is left over, set aside and keep for the morning.'" 24 They set it aside till morning, as Moshe had ordered; and it didn't rot or have worms. 25 Moshe said, "Today, eat that; because today is a Shabbat for ADONAI - today you won't find it in the field. 26 Gather it six days, but the seventh day is the Shabbat - on that day there won't be any." 27 However, on the seventh day, some of the people went out to gather and found none. 28 ADONAI said to Moshe, "How long will you refuse to observe my mitzvot and teachings? 29 Look, ADONAI has given you the Shabbat. This is why he is providing bread for two days on the sixth day. Each of you, stay where you are; no one is to leave his place on the seventh day."

The problem is, for the most part there is no definition of “labor.”
• Exceptions- Ex 35:3, 16:29 and Neh 10:31

The ancient rabbis came up with 39 categories or divisions of labor, listed in mishna Shabbat 7.2. More were added over time. 39 is significant because this was the no. of times a person was flogged for violating Shabbat where scripture was silent on the issue.

2 Corinthians 11:24 “Five times I received "forty lashes less one" (39) from the Jews.”

The first 11 violations listed had to do with activities associated with making bread.
1. one who sows,
2. ploughs,
3. reaps,
4. binds sheaves,
5. threshes,
6. winnows,
7. selects [fit from unfit produce or crops],
8. grinds,
9. sifts,
10. kneads,
11. bakes,

The problem was this didn’t answer the question of “how much?” 1 grain? 10 grains? …

The Tosephta is a compilation of the Oral Law from the 2nd Temple period. Tosephta Betza 1.20 says that ‘he who rubs wheat (threshing) on Shabbat may blow on it from hand to hand(winnowing) and eat it.’(paraphrased) This was Jewish Law in the 1st Cen.

Hellelites would allow people to process and eat a handful. Shemaimites would allow you to process but not eat it; their reasoning being it had not been tithed on. This was the connection to David and the Showbread- the Showbread was from tithes. It was also forbidden to non-priests, however the higher mitzvah was to sustain life.

The problem is they were plucking “and” eating. The school of Hilel allowed this, the school of Shemai did not. All Jews of the time allowed the preparation of a small amount of grain on Shabbat. It was the Shemaimites that did not allow eating it. They were the “some” of the P’rushim.

The day of Shabbat was never in question, just the details of how Shabbat was observed. And note: Yeshua was not even eating, it was His talmidim, so Yeshua couldn’t have ‘broken the Sabbath,’ even if the ‘Christian’ interpretation were correct.

Leviticus 18:4-5 “You are to obey my rulings and laws and live accordingly; I am ADONAI your God. You are to observe my laws and rulings; if a person does them, he will have life through them; I am ADONAI.”

God’s is a of life. This is why Yeshua said “Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat.”

Dan

[alon]

And thanks for reminding me of that. I was starting to get bound up in some of the minor details of observance again, trying not to "push the envelope" on what to do. We sometimes forget there is freedom in and, like the Rabbis today start to bind too much on ourselves.

I live in wheat country and can tell you that almost no one walks through a ripe wheat field without shelling out a few heads and eating them. It's an afterthought type action. It'd be more "work" to stop yourself than to just do it. So this was a very human thing to do. This may be another reason why Yeshua remarked that Shabbath was made for man.

Dan C

[jimmie]

The Lord of the Sabbath allowed this.

(Deu 23:25 KJV) When thou comest into the standing corn of thy neighbour, then thou mayest pluck the ears with thine hand; but thou shalt not move a sickle unto thy neighbour's standing corn.

You are free to eat even on the Sabbath.