|
|
Post by alon on Aug 8, 2014 6:07:07 GMT -8
11. It is a negative commandment not to bow down and prostrate oneself to an idol.
Shemot 20:5(OJB) Thou shalt not tishtacheveh to them, nor serve them; for I Hashem Eloheicha am an El kanna, visiting the avon Avot upon the Banim unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
Exodus 20:5 (CJB) You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, ADONAI your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Since it is a form of worship to the blessed God, if one acted in this way he would deserve death by stoning, ... If he did this deliberately without a [prior] warning, he would deserve kareth [Divine severance of existence]; and if it was done unwittingly, he would have a duty to bring a hattah (sin-offering). So also if someone ritually slays a sacrifice, sprinkles its blood, burns its parts, or pours a libation (drink-offering): Since these were forms of Divine worship to the blessed God at the Sanctuary, he is punishable over them if he performed them toward an idol, ... One should accept death [if necessary] and not commit such transgression.
If one's coins became scattered, or if a thorn be lodged in his foot, before an idol, he should not bow down before the idol to take it out or gather them, because he will seem to be bowing down or prostrating himself before the idol. He should rather turn his back to it or turn aside.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 8, 2014 6:20:59 GMT -8
Well, we've went from extremely lenient to extremely harsh in this one. Death, and being cut off by God ... but idolatry is a serious offense. But what about the part where one may unintentionally bow- in the example here lost coins or a splinter. Interesting they did not address the following incident:
2 Kings 5:18 Except this, and may ADONAI forgive your servant for it: when my master goes into the temple of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon - when I bow down, may ADONAI forgive your servant for this." 19 Elisha said to him, "Go in peace." ...,
So in this instance a servant was excused by a prophet for bowing before an idol because he was required to do so by his master in order to help the man. Apparently there are exceptions, though I wouldn't advise getting too carried away with this concept. Since the Rabbis didn't see fit to address this one, maybe we could. It won't be halacha to anyone unless some of us take it to heart, but still worth knowing where we stand on this issue.
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Aug 10, 2014 19:56:56 GMT -8
Well, we've went from extremely lenient to extremely harsh in this one. Death, and being cut off by God ... but idolatry is a serious offense. But what about the part where one may unintentionally bow- in the example here lost coins or a splinter. Interesting they did not address the following incident:2 Kings 5:18 Except this, and may ADONAI forgive your servant for it: when my master goes into the temple of Rimmon to worship there, and he leans on my hand, and I bow down in the temple of Rimmon - when I bow down, may ADONAI forgive your servant for this." 19 Elisha said to him, "Go in peace." ...,So in this instance a servant was excused by a prophet for bowing before an idol because he was required to do so by his master in order to help the man. Apparently there are exceptions, though I wouldn't advise getting too carried away with this concept. Since the Rabbis didn't see fit to address this one, maybe we could. It won't be halacha to anyone unless some of us take it to heart, but still worth knowing where we stand on this issue.
Dan C
Alon, we are back to what is more important to G-d...that we stringently follow a certain way of following a regulation, or that we observe the regulation personally, inwardly, while helping the Master to whom one is a bondservant to do what the Master feels is right, however idolatrous it may be to us.
The Rabbi's said nothing because the action was being done as a slave to another...no choice to quit, and find another job. And in assisting his elderly master, that slave was being obedient as he is required to be under  . When the slave knelt, or bent, or crouched, it was not to bow in worship to an Idol, but to carefully assist the one being idolatrous by kneeling to help the master down, and then to rise again. It doesn't matter how it looked...it was the slave's intent.
I might not have much choice as to my employer, but only for my behaviour, and as an employee I am not bound to do things against my religion in these United States...not yet anyway. When it becomes part of anyone's job these days to subordinate their religious practices to the religion of another, it will have to be taken on a case by case basis.
For instance, catering an LGBT wedding against your beliefs, officiating at it as a church sacrament, photographing it for pay, making a cake for it...well, that would be worshipping Mammon rather than G-d. I would find a different job, or move to a place where I had more freedom of conscience. Being a Driver to a LGBT person who needs being driven to their church, helped into a wheelchair, and assisted into their church...that should not trouble me, although once I found out I would be required to do it again, I would ask for a different assignment. Being a surgical nurse and being required to assist at a Dilation and Curretage (A polite way of saying abortion), well, I would be checking the schedule, and trading off days with the other nurses, and outright refusing to do it, until I could find another surgical position...maybe with a heart or brain specialist!
In the end, what we are doing to survive in a sick and demented world is going to get harder, and choices will have to be made...and tolerance of other people's religions and practices is only a problem to me if I am doing something wrong to benefit by it.
Intolerance of others views and lifestyles is not my job, except at the voting booth, and in the Socialist State of California, I am required to be at peace with all men, which means tolerating a LOT! And I have liked many a LGBT person, and known a few Witches, and even enjoyed...for an hour or two, at a business affair, the company of such people who are totally foreign to my way of life and my beliefs...I just don't seek out their company, because I am not interested in their lives, and they are not really interested in a person like me.
Yehoshua won't mind if I don't make a ruckus every time I see someone doing something wrong in my views, when it is legal in the State I live in, so long as I do my best not to participate in any manner. Politeness, on the other hand, is a given in this PC world, and being indifferent to the practices of others is a part of life. Avoiding the appearance of wrongdoing is great if you can manage it, but in the end, it is Yehoshua who will judge my every action and intent...not the Rabbi's. Which means I tolerate all kinds of people's nonsense to the extent I have to, and pray for them.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 11, 2014 12:25:00 GMT -8
Questor, I agree in theory. I was on a chat-room full of witches, practicing pagans and a few other who-knows-whats for over 2 yrs. They liked me for some reason, and I endured a LOT of their telling me all about the rituals we "Christians" do and how their roots are in paganism and the occult. I used the opportunity to witness to them. God separated me from them (or they did ... probably both) just before my search that led me to MJ began. If the opportunity arose for me to speak with them again, I would. But that is witnessing, not worshiping. Fellowshipping and enjoying their company (in a cyborg sort of way) ... I'd have to be careful there how far I went. They'd lay traps for me and try to trip me up so they could AHA!!! my cyber butt!
Closer to home, I and I suspect all of us have heard this argument "It's my intent that counts" to justify everything from Sunday to Christmas and beyond. One pastor even argued that he could enter a pagan temple, kneel before their alter and worship in order to witness to them later. He "could worship God anywhere," and "It was his intent, what was in his heart that counts." I'm sorry, but Rav Sha'ul preached in front of pagan temples, not in them. And that he "became all things to all men" does not mean he lied to them, it simply means he met them where they were at in order to reach them. A scientist cannot explain quantum theory to a layman in scientific terms. He must use common language to explain the concepts. Neither could I talk to anyone here about false doctrine using terms like paedobaptism. (Means infant baptism- I looked it up ).
So how far do we take this concept? What might be some ideas to help make our decisions when the time comes? Can we suggest some scriptural guidelines to help with the process?
Acts 17:30 "In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins."
We as Messianics have been called out of the false church. We are called to a higher purpose and a greater accountability. It might be good to get these issues straight in our minds before we are called by circumstances or evil design to make the decision.
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Aug 12, 2014 2:32:48 GMT -8
Questor, I agree in theory. I was on a chat-room full of witches, practicing pagans and a few other who-knows-whats for over 2 yrs. They liked me for some reason, and I endured a LOT of their telling me all about the rituals we "Christians" do and how their roots are in paganism and the occult. I used the opportunity to witness to them. God separated me from them (or they did ... probably both) just before my search that led me to MJ began. If the opportunity arose for me to speak with them again, I would. But that is witnessing, not worshiping. Fellowshipping and enjoying their company (in a cyborg sort of way) ... I'd have to be careful there how far I went. They'd lay traps for me and try to trip me up so they could AHA!!! my cyber butt!
Closer to home, I and I suspect all of us have heard this argument "It's my intent that counts" to justify everything from Sunday to Christmas and beyond. One pastor even argued that he could enter a pagan temple, kneel before their alter and worship in order to witness to them later. He "could worship God anywhere," and "It was his intent, what was in his heart that counts." I'm sorry, but Rav Sha'ul preached in front of pagan temples, not in them. And that he "became all things to all men" does not mean he lied to them, it simply means he met them where they were at in order to reach them. A scientist cannot explain quantum theory to a layman in scientific terms. He must use common language to explain the concepts. Neither could I talk to anyone here about false doctrine using terms like paedobaptism. (Means infant baptism- I looked it up ).
So how far do we take this concept? What might be some ideas to help make our decisions when the time comes? Can we suggest some scriptural guidelines to help with the process?
Acts 17:30 "In the past, God overlooked such ignorance; but now he is commanding all people everywhere to turn to him from their sins." We as Messianics have been called out of the false church. We are called to a higher purpose and a greater accountability. It might be good to get these issues straight in our minds before we are called by circumstances or evil design to make the decision.
Dan C
I think this is where we visualize it out in advance just what we shall do when we are put to the final test. Intent will not count when we are asked to enter a place of worship of a god who is not YHVH, when we are asked to bow to a god who is not YHVH, because we will be free to say no. And we must be ready to say no, and die for it.
That slave we will not emulate never had the opportunity to grow up as we grew up...convinced beyond a doubt that we had the right to not believe...that we had free will and free choice, and that we still do. Jews to this day are taught they are not permitted to think on their own, are not permitted to doubt what they have been brought up to believe, and few Rabbi's will tell them to read the Scriptures and decide for themselves. Most of the Messianic Jews in the world are in America...About 1.2 million at this count, while a mere 15 to 20 thousand strain to live as Messianic Jews in Israel. That is enough for 144,000 to be found today, not to mention that a few dreams and visions could wake an entire new generation of young Israeli's to belief in Messiah Yehoshua.
I am disgusted and deeply grieved by the evil I see around me, but I have no way to amend it, and no power or presence given to me by G-d to make a stand except by writing. And by refusing to do as I am told when it is important that I not do as I am told.
Revelation 14:9-13 (CJB)
9 Another angel, a third one, followed them and said in a loud voice, “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives the mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10 he will indeed drink the wine of God’s fury poured undiluted into the cup of his rage. He will be tormented by fire and sulfur before the holy angels and before the Lamb,
11 and the smoke from their tormenting goes up forever and ever. They have no rest, day or night, those who worship the beast and its image and those who receive the mark of its name.”
12 This is when perseverance is needed on the part of God’s people, those who observe his commands and exercise Yeshua’s faithfulness.
13 Next I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘How blessed are the dead who die united with the Lord, from now on!’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘now they may rest from their efforts, for the things they have accomplished follow along with them.’”
I tolerate what I am required to tolerate of others creating problems for me when I go out into the world, which I limit to as little as once a month, and longer if I can manage it. This is as much by preference as ability...I tire very easily, and have no interest in the world these days. I like the people, but I have so little strength. My abilities are so limited..an hour or two with a stranger even of good intent, and I am mentally not able to continue, after driving an hour to get to town, and then I blindly turn around, and the van finds it's own way home...then two days of recovery (it used to be three!) from the mere emotional strain of facing all that world...and where I go, a pretty decent example in one of the best areas of SoCal, chock full of Believers.
I meet mostly with kindness no matter who the people are, and if they believe differently than I do, they tell me, because G-d always comes up...I am unable to answer a polite question about my health and well being without bringing G-d up.
But one day I will meet with suspicion, and resentment, and perhaps with a demand that I change my ways of thinking and speaking. I might be able to avoid speaking...I do not feel impelled to start a call to repentance in the midst of the local Costco. Still, I rather doubt that I could avoid mentioning Abba completely...and I daresay it will get me killed one day. All someone need do is ask is the name of my G-d...they would hear it in the proper Hebrew as I can best figure out to pronounce it with the vowel points I have studied.
But no matter to whom I speak, and I never really know what it is that they believe unless they tell me, they always know where I stand...at Yehoshua's side.
I speak without condemnation to all who I meet because I have led such a terribly sinful life myself that their sins are surely no darker than mine, and yet, somehow I was led through all four separate sowings until I finally, finally took what was offered so many times to me.
I will not think that Abba will be less careful to offer them as much Grace until the moment that Yehoshua returns. May that be sooner than we could hope for! And may we stand ready always to make that simple, final statement about our hope, and in Whom it rests...Yehoshua.. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 3:16:39 GMT -8
I think this is where we visualize it out in advance just what we shall do when we are put to the final test. Intent will not count when we are asked to enter a place of worship of a god who is not YHVH, when we are asked to bow to a god who is not YHVH, because we will be free to say no. And we must be ready to say no, and die for it.
Actually, the slave may have been a bond slave who had enough education in the Hebrew religion to worry that what he was doing was wrong. The idea of public education originated with the Hebrews, not the Greeks as we are taught. The schools were religious in nature, although they also taught basic life skills like reading and ciphers.
While it is true they depended on the Rabbis for their religious instruction, this was more out of necessity than design as scrolls were rare and expensive, and found only in the synagogues. There was the Oral Tradition, which was also taught by the Rabbis as they knew it best. The idea that everyone could read or hear the Word read and decide for themselves what it meant was just after the Maccabean Revolt. The idea of controlling every detail and aspect of peoples lives didn't happen until just before Yeshua's time, and only got worse as the Jewish leadership was forced into the Diaspora and became more and more polarized, institutionalized and extremeist in the face of Christian persecution.
So this slave likely had some training, and was not from a system that tried to robotically control his life and actions. I think we can imitate him and ask "Am I OK to be doing this?" Then be ready to accept both the answer and the consequences of that answer.
Most of everything seems to be in the US. We are a free and affluent society, so those who refuse to listen have no excuse. Whenever God puts the truth in front of us we have a choice, and we'll bear the consequences of the choice we make.
I have some idea of what you are going through with the illness you describe, though I'd never say I outright understand it. But I do pray for you, with the understanding of someone who suffers similarly.
Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 17:54:18 GMT -8
Another negative commandment based on Sh'moth 20:5;
12. It is a negative commandment to not worship an idol in the way it is usually venerated.
Sh’moth 20:5 Thou shalt not tishtacheveh to them, nor serve them; for I Hashem Eloheicha am an El kanna, visiting the avon Avot upon the Banim unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate Me;
Ex 20:5 You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, ADONAI your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
Even in a disgraceful manner- for example, uncovering oneself to evacuate to Pe’or, or throwing a stone to Merculis- it is punishable by stoning to death, if it was done without [prior] warning, it is punishable by kareth [Divine severance of existence]. And if it was done unwittingly, there is an obligation of a hattath (sin offering). But if someone uncovered himself to Merculis there would be no penalty since such is not its usual way of worship, and it is an approach of disgrace.
If someone hugs and kisses an idol, or he sweeps and sands the ground before it, or he does some other act of homeage, … he violates a prohibition, but whiplashes are not suffered for them, since it is a composit, omnibus prohibition … . If there are any faucets of water in sculpted images before some idolatry, one should not put his mouth to them to drink, since he would seem to be kissing an idol.
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 17:58:04 GMT -8
Pe‘or is possibly from the Hebrew p‘r, 'open', used for both the mouth and bowels. Ba‘al Pe‘or could mean 'Lord of the Opening'. Apparently this meaning is the source of Talmudic traditions associating Ba‘al Pe‘or with exposure and excrement in tractate Sanhedrin 64a. Tractate ‘Avodah Zarah 3 in the Gemara says that the area before the idol Pe‘or was used as a latrine and that the worship of the idol consisted of excrementing before it. Rashi, on Numbers 25.3 says that Pe‘or was so called because they would uncover the end of the rectum and bring forth excrement; and this is its worship. Now tell me the language of the "New Testament" is pagan Greek!
Throwing stones was an act of worship of Merculis (Mercury); and two or three stones falling together before or near a large Merculis, represented by a stone pillar, made a small Merculis. Muslims do this during their Hajj, or pilgrimage. They say it is to confuse “Satan,” and their hearts are directed towards god (small ‘g’ intentional here) so it is OK. Christians denounce Muslims for this, while themselves making full and frequent use of this excuse for their own idolatries. And this is what becomes of all that paganization of the religion.
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Aug 12, 2014 18:10:56 GMT -8
Alon, we are back to what is more important to G-d...that we stringently follow a certain way of following a regulation, or that we observe the regulation personally, inwardly, while helping the Master to whom one is a bondservant to do what the Master feels is right, however idolatrous it may be to us.
Pe‘or is possibly from the Hebrew p‘r, 'open', used for both the mouth and bowels. Ba‘al Pe‘or could mean 'Lord of the Opening'. Apparently this meaning is the source of Talmudic traditions associating Ba‘al Pe‘or with exposure and excrement in tractate Sanhedrin 64a. Tractate ‘Avodah Zarah 3 in the Gemara says that the area before the idol Pe‘or was used as a latrine and that the worship of the idol consisted of excrementing before it. Rashi, on Numbers 25.3 says that Pe‘or was so called because they would uncover the end of the rectum and bring forth excrement; and this is its worship. Now tell me the language of the "New Testament" is pagan Greek!
Throwing stones was an act of worship of Merculis (Mercury); and two or three stones falling together before or near a large Merculis, represented by a stone pillar, made a small Merculis. Muslims do this during their Hajj, or pilgrimage. They say it is to confuse “Satan,” and their hearts are directed towards god (small ‘g’ intentional here) so it is OK. Christians denounce Muslims for this, while themselves making full and frequent use of this excuse for their own idolatries. And this is what becomes of all that paganization of the religion.
Dan C
You can justify the grossest things, and things that obviously are firmly rooted in pagan practices, just by making "ritual" to be such a bad thing, a thing to be eschewed. Christians and Muslims do it all the time. First demonize the ritual as God said, then replace the ritual with a pagan ritual and call it godly because of what is in your heart.
Jer 17:9 "The heart is more deceitful than anything else and mortally sick. Who can fathom it?
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Aug 12, 2014 19:38:50 GMT -8
Alon, we are back to what is more important to G-d...that we stringently follow a certain way of following a regulation, or that we observe the regulation personally, inwardly, while helping the Master to whom one is a bondservant to do what the Master feels is right, however idolatrous it may be to us. Pe‘or is possibly from the Hebrew p‘r, 'open', used for both the mouth and bowels. Ba‘al Pe‘or could mean 'Lord of the Opening'. Apparently this meaning is the source of Talmudic traditions associating Ba‘al Pe‘or with exposure and excrement in tractate Sanhedrin 64a. Tractate ‘Avodah Zarah 3 in the Gemara says that the area before the idol Pe‘or was used as a latrine and that the worship of the idol consisted of excrementing before it. Rashi, on Numbers 25.3 says that Pe‘or was so called because they would uncover the end of the rectum and bring forth excrement; and this is its worship. Now tell me the language of the "New Testament" is pagan Greek!
Throwing stones was an act of worship of Merculis (Mercury); and two or three stones falling together before or near a large Merculis, represented by a stone pillar, made a small Merculis. Muslims do this during their Hajj, or pilgrimage. They say it is to confuse “Satan,” and their hearts are directed towards god (small ‘g’ intentional here) so it is OK. Christians denounce Muslims for this, while themselves making full and frequent use of this excuse for their own idolatries. And this is what becomes of all that paganization of the religion.
Dan C
If the slave was to go into a temple of Ba'al Pe'or, and relieve himself, knowing it was an act of worship, he would at that point be worshiping an Idol. If he helped his owner to relieve himself, he would simply be obedient to his owner.
We humans are not permitted to draw the line in the sand as to the appearance of Idolatry of others being equivalent to Idolatry...judgement is not in our hands, but G-d's.
Only for ourselves can we draw the line tighter than the law as it was given in Scripture, and my lines are already drawn...no images where it is within my power to remove them, and certainly not worshiping them by bowing to them, or prostrating myself before them. I wouldn't attend a Catholic wedding service these days, because the Mass requires a lot of standing, and kneeling, and Catholic Churches have Crucifixes.
I don't think I would go into a church with just a plain Cross there..., but if I did, I wouldn't reverence the posts, or kneel before it. If I saw a beautiful, multi coloured glass window in a place of worship, with the stained glass forming the shape of a white dove against golden light in a blue sky, with an olive branch in it's mouth, I might admire it, but again, no reverence, no bowing. If I dropped some money on the ground inside the Dome of the Rock, I would bend over or stoop to pick it up only if I were bending toward the west...away from Mecca. There are no images there to offend anyone. But I wouldn't be in the Dome of the Rock for any foreseeable reason, being free to do as I like, and Mosques, however beautiful, are not on my list of places to visit. |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Aug 12, 2014 20:20:04 GMT -8
I think this is where we visualize it out in advance just what we shall do when we are put to the final test. Intent will not count when we are asked to enter a place of worship of a god who is not YHVH, when we are asked to bow to a god who is not YHVH, because we will be free to say no. And we must be ready to say no, and die for it.
One has to picture oneself being held by people who are standing in a pagan place, with a knife to one's child's throat, and know that the child will not escape death or damnation by our damning ourselves.
One has to see oneself hungry, and thirsty, and being willing to suffer more hunger and thirst rather than give in to what is wanted when the mark is offered you.
One has to remember as well, experiences with prayer giving relief to pain, or preventing pain altogether, and remember that Abba is more than willing to help us through these difficult experiences, and that He has promised never to put us through any test without giving us a way to get through the test, and that we will not be tempted beyond our strength if we keep our mind on Him as these terrible events unfold in our lives.
We must plan our responses, and ask Abba to help us know what to do when the time comes, but we must also trust in our G-d, the fact that Yehoshua died to get us salvation, then sent the Holy Spirit to be within us.
Matthew 10:18-20 (CJB)
18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as a testimony to them and to the Goyim.
19 But when they bring you to trial, do not worry about what to say or how to say it; when the time comes, you will be given what you should say.
20 For it will not be just you speaking, but the Spirit of your heavenly Father speaking through you.
And we must remember that no one has forbidden us to fear, only that we are to walk through that fear, and into the light, no matter the pain we suffer, or the fear and pain that others suffer.Aug 12, 2014 4:16:39 GMT -7 alon said:
Most of everything seems to be in the US. We are a free and affluent society, so those who refuse to listen have no excuse. Whenever God puts the truth in front of us we have a choice, and we'll bear the consequences of the choice we make. I have some idea of what you are going through with the illness you describe, though I'd never say I outright understand it. But I do pray for you, with the understanding of someone who suffers similarly. Dan C |
|
- there are 70 faces to 
