What Gospel?

[Questor]

What gospel are we to declare? Salvation through Yehoshua, or the presence of the Kingdom?


Matthew 3:1-3 (CJB)
1 It was during those days that Yochanan the Immerser arrived in the desert of Y’hudah and began proclaiming the message,
2 “Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!”
3 This is the man Yesha‘yahu was talking about when he said, “The voice of someone crying out: ‘In the desert prepare the way of Adonai! Make straight paths for him!’”

Matthew 4:17 (CJB)
17 From that time on, Yeshua began proclaiming, “Turn from your sins to God, for the Kingdom of Heaven is near!”

Yochanan's message here is identical with Yeshua's at 4:17.
Kingdom of Heaven. The word "Heaven" was used in pious avoidance of the word "God" (see 1:20N); and to this day Hebrew malkhut-haShammayim ("Kingdom of Heaven") substitutes in Jewish religious literature for "Kingdom of God," an expression found frequently in the New Testament, first at 6:33 below. In the Jewish New Testament "Heaven" is capitalized when it refers to God; "heaven" is in lower-case when it refers to the sky or paradise.
In both Yochanan's and Yeshua's preaching (4:17) the reason for urgency to repent is that the Kingdom of Heaven is near. The concept of the Kingdom of God is crucial to understanding the Bible. It refers neither to a place nor to a time, but to a condition in which the rulership of God is acknowledged by humankind, a condition in which God's promises of a restored universe free from sin and death are, or begin to be, fulfilled.
Jewish New Testament Commentary.

[alon]

You almost answered your own question there. Yeshua and Him crucified is who we preach. As God incarnate, who died for our sins, He is the way to salvation.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, in line with this and what you said, I'd say we preach the same gospel as was preached by Yochanan, in and by the Prophets, that of Yeshua. The whole Bible points to Him.

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 7, 2014 9:34:43 GMT -8 alon said:

You almost answered your own question there. Yeshua and Him crucified is who we preach. As God incarnate, who died for our sins, He is the way to salvation.

Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So, in line with this and what you said, I'd say we preach the same gospel as was preached by Yochanan, in and by the Prophets, that of Yeshua. The whole Bible points to Him.

Dan C

So, when do we start? And how?

[alon]

Aug 8, 2014 1:54:44 GMT -8 Questor said:

So, when do we start? And how?

That is actually a very good question.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

"The Great Commission" was not given to everyone, yet it was. One of the great Biblical dichotomies. Yeshua was talking to His talmedim when He said that- men who had walked in His footsteps, trained with Him and were about to be empowered by the Ruach to take His besorah to the world. Before we start to preach we need to study. We need to talk with others of like mind and solidify what we believe, and why. And we need to pray for the guidance of the Ruach HaChodesh.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

However we should begin to witness about what God has done for us immediately. Not only should our lives show it, but we should always stand ready to tell what we do know to those God puts in front of us. He knows what we are ready for. Look at it this way, at least you aren't likely to be in Moshe's position:

Ex 3:4 ... God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said , Moses, Moses. And he said , Here am I. 5 And he said , Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said , I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said , I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters ; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; ... 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, ... 12 And he said , Certainly I will be with thee; ...

So just study up, witness where you can, and if any bushes talk to you then do what it says!

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 8, 2014 5:41:35 GMT -8 alon said:

Aug 8, 2014 1:54:44 GMT -8 Questor said:

So, when do we start? And how?

That is actually a very good question.

Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

"The Great Commission" was not given to everyone, yet it was. One of the great Biblical dichotomies. Yeshua was talking to His talmedim when He said that- men who had walked in His footsteps, trained with Him and were about to be empowered by the Ruach to take His besorah to the world. Before we start to preach we need to study. We need to talk with others of like mind and solidify what we believe, and why. And we need to pray for the guidance of the Ruach HaChodesh.

2Ti 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

However we should begin to witness about what God has done for us immediately. Not only should our lives show it, but we should always stand ready to tell what we do know to those God puts in front of us. He knows what we are ready for. Look at it this way, at least you aren't likely to be in Moshe's position:

Ex 3:4 ... God called unto him out of the midst of the bush, and said , Moses, Moses. And he said , Here am I. 5 And he said , Draw not nigh hither: put off thy shoes from off thy feet, for the place whereon thou standest is holy ground. 6 Moreover he said , I am the God of thy father, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. And Moses hid his face; for he was afraid to look upon God. 7 And the LORD said , I have surely seen the affliction of my people which are in Egypt, and have heard their cry by reason of their taskmasters ; for I know their sorrows; 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey; ... 10 Come now therefore, and I will send thee unto Pharaoh, that thou mayest bring forth my people the children of Israel out of Egypt. 11 And Moses said unto God, Who am I, that I should go unto Pharaoh, ... 12 And he said , Certainly I will be with thee; ...

So just study up, witness where you can, and if any bushes talk to you then do what it says!

Dan C

I'm already doing that. I meant as a Messianic Community, how do we reach out to the MainC Believers, and when are we going to start?

I write on forums, and comment on Blogs to get other people to look at what they have not yet seen, but I see no groups doing outreach anywhere...do you?

[alon]

Our synagogue does, and they are growing. They are outgrowing their 3rd building just since I became associated with them. And we are starting another, possibly two congregations on the coast. I am trying to figure out how to start a group here but the Rabbi doesn't think I'm quite ready yet. So I study, I pray, and I wait. But I do always stand ready to share or defend what I believe. This pastor I am talking to- I'm not sure which I'm doing really. One thing is for sure, he knows his own theology and is extremely strong in his faith! He's preached under the rifles of those who'd have sooner killed him than risk any problems on their watch- in Africa, India and other places where revolution is a fact of life.

So yes, some are. But there are few who are qualified and just not that many of us to begin with. So hang in there, do what you can, and know you are where God put you for a reason. Unless of course He is telling you to move on somewhere else. He only requires of us what we can do- you've told me that many times hre, and it is rue. But the analogy of Moshe and the bush is a serious point- all to often we could do, are called to do more. And we balk. It's human nature to balk, and God didn't condemn Moshe for doing so. But Moshe went, and God used him. And it is not wrong to ask for a sign. God gave Moshe a sign and he didn't even ask for it! Just make sure your heart motives are right when you ask, and you obey when He says go. And if you are sure before you ask then I'd say it is wrong because your heart motive is to get out of going! Laast thought, be careful what you ask for, because when you find it you are all in. No turning away. I asked for the truth, and now I am all in with MJ. It causes me a lot of problems and a lot of anxiety, but I cannot turn back to the lies of mainC. I can fellowship with them to a degree. I believe many of them are saved, but they are missing the great joy and service they could be called to if they knew the truth. So when anyone, even if he has a Masters degree and knows his stuff, asks me, I tell them. God put these men in front of me and, while like Moshe I experience some angst I am still duty bound to take the message to Pharaoh's court! And if any of you want to pray for me in this I'd appreciate it.

Prayer never goes amiss, and many here do not have a congregation they can go to for help. We should be exhorting each other and praying for each other here continually, as you are the only "congregation" many here have! We need to share here because we hold each other accountable, so what we learn here is more likely gold than the fool's gold found on the internet and in books. I've thrown out more books and deleted more information than I've kept. And some of it after holding onto it and believing it for some time. So we should humble ourselves here and consider everything we are told about our beliefs. You don't have to agree, but still you may find errors in your thinking. I have (see my "I was wrong" thread).

Dan C

[Questor]

Aug 11, 2014 12:59:35 GMT -8 alon said:

Our synagogue does, and they are growing. They are outgrowing their 3rd building just since I became associated with them. And we are starting another, possibly two congregations on the coast. I am trying to figure out how to start a group here but the Rabbi doesn't think I'm quite ready yet. So I study, I pray, and I wait. But I do always stand ready to share or defend what I believe. This pastor I am talking to- I'm not sure which I'm doing really. One thing is for sure, he knows his own theology and is extremely strong in his faith! He's preached under the rifles of those who'd have sooner killed him than risk any problems on their watch- in Africa, India and other places where revolution is a fact of life.

So yes, some are. But there are few who are qualified and just not that many of us to begin with. So hang in there, do what you can, and know you are where God put you for a reason.

I am glad you see progress where you are.

I am so very much not in touch with what is happening that I know I do not see the whole picture...only such small bits and pieces! It is aggravating because I do not know what to do that I am not already doing...and since I haven't got that part down well yet, I know I need to have more time just doing as I am doing, and experiencing every day with Abba as a separate learning experience, or set of learning experiences.

There is indeed a lot of material to sort through, books and blogs, forums, and letters, sermons and studies...I can't say I am bored with what is my ministry...to try to understand, and talk to others to find out what they know, and share what I have found in turn, by writing it all down...on the web, perhaps in a book one day, or go back to my old blog, and try to see what I wrote there, and if it is still as valid as I thought it was beginning in 2006.

The sensation I have is that I am only one erratic drop of water trying to wear away at a mountain of lies.

Aug 11, 2014 12:59:35 GMT -8 alon said:

Unless of course He is telling you to move on somewhere else. He only requires of us what we can do- you've told me that many times here, and it is true. But the analogy of Moshe and the bush is a serious point- all to often we could do, are called to do more. And we balk. It's human nature to balk, and God didn't condemn Moshe for doing so. But Moshe went, and God used him. And it is not wrong to ask for a sign. God gave Moshe a sign and he didn't even ask for it! Just make sure your heart motives are right when you ask, and you obey when He says go. And if you are sure before you ask then I'd say it is wrong because your heart motive is to get out of going!

Abba is not moving me anywhere...nor telling me to do anything differently.   I know I am where I am supposed to be at present, and for the foreseeable future.  I try not to ask for much more for myself than increasing health that I might do more of what I am trying to do, and indeed, I do get better...one cell at a time! I do not want to do differently, just be more effective. And I cannot help but tire of pounding the same nail all the time, so I try to find new ways to approach the same topics.

Aug 11, 2014 12:59:35 GMT -8 alon said:

Last thought, be careful what you ask for, because when you find it you are all in. No turning away. I asked for the truth, and now I am all in with MJ. It causes me a lot of problems and a lot of anxiety, but I cannot turn back to the lies of mainC. I can fellowship with them to a degree. I believe many of them are saved, but they are missing the great joy and service they could be called to if they knew the truth. So when anyone, even if he has a Masters degree and knows his stuff, asks me, I tell them. God put these men in front of me and, while like Moshe I experience some angst I am still duty bound to take the message to Pharaoh's court! And if any of you want to pray for me in this I'd appreciate it.

Prayer never goes amiss, and many here do not have a congregation they can go to for help. We should be exhorting each other and praying for each other here continually, as you are the only "congregation" many here have! We need to share here because we hold each other accountable, so what we learn here is more likely gold than the fool's gold found on the internet and in books. I've thrown out more books and deleted more information than I've kept. And some of it after holding onto it and believing it for some time. So we should humble ourselves here and consider everything we are told about our beliefs. You don't have to agree, but still you may find errors in your thinking. I have (see my "I was wrong" thread).

Prayer at least I can do easily...for others, anyway. And do already for you! I don't generally ask much for myself that is not practical, like healing, and for the blasted estate to close one day. I did once ask for patience...BIG MISTAKE!!! I continue to get it, but to acquire that virtue meant changing an awful lot of who I thought I was and what I wanted...and it's been 18 years of LOOOOONNNGGG Suffering that is not yet over. I have asked for wisdom and understanding...I have no idea what trouble that will get me into! Asking to be changed gets me changed a lot, and I don't decide on what gets changed...it's easier to let Abba choose that.

As for me asking for a sign? Nope...I got told pretty clearly what to do already! I just have to keep doing it. It helps me if I ask for what I am missing, or what to fix, or what to look for...I get plain and quick answers on those things. What I never seem to know is not what I am to do, which is write, but how to do it, and how to approach it, and what exactly I am to write about. I don't have a need to do anything else, just to discover how to do it better, or in what direction I am supposed to go. That I have never really known, and in a way, Abba never told me more than "Write!", so in an odd way, what I write about may be within my choice and preferences. But if that is so, I still need clarity...as to my choices and my preferences! And anyway, they need to lie within the will of G-d to begin with.

I am not a voice in the wilderness, nor a teacher, nor am I able to debate face to face, nor speak except with my fingertips, so I will simply have to wait and see where I am led, and what topics I trip over here, and elsewhere.

Even so, I thank you for your counsel...I also am happy to be where I am, even if it is an uncomfortable place from time to time.

[alon]

I understand it is tough to be "out of touch." Believe me, I been there. Even now my life still seems to hang between two realities. I am MJ, yet still tied to mainC by my wife. I have a Rabbi, but he only comes over to teach. I don't really attend the synagogue proper. And now he is divided between that congregation and the one on the coast. But I do have the touchstone of fellowship once a week- and that is such a HUGE blessing I cannot begin to describe it!

As to your "problem"- Ed Parker used to say that if all you have is a hammer, every problem begins to look like a nail. Maybe you should focus on the diversity of resources, even expand them a bit. Have you looked in on the Shabbath service by live feed here? PM me and I'll help.

I pray that both you and I will find people willing to listen to the truth that we can establish fellowship with at home; and for our respective disabilities. And I pray that Ruth, and now Elizabeth and my own spouse will come to see and accept the truth. And I pray that everyone here will continue to grow in the truth.

Heb 10:25 not neglecting our own congregational meetings, as some have made a practice of doing, but, rather, encouraging each other. And let us do this all the more as you see the Day approaching.

When it seems as if the congregation has neglected to include us, maybe we need to find other ways to be in fellowship. Like the live feed service and fellowshipping via this forum! I know it's not the same, but it'll do until we can gain converts locally; either called out of mainC or better yet some we've brought to Yeshua and can now begin to disciple!

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

Aug 6, 2014 14:59:58 GMT -8 Questor said:

What gospel are we to declare? Salvation through Yehoshua, or the presence of the Kingdom?

A very good discussion topic. Both items are parts are the gospel.

I cringe when I see a quote of Matthew 28:19 without the hugely important next verse.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Study and observance (obedience) is very important but we must share and teach others about obedience. This is the problem with Christianity, which has gone soft on obedience. I also do most of my sharing on the Internet because the congregation (denomination) I attend doesn't want to hear about going all the way in obedience.

I don't read many posts here because of the heavy overt focus on Messianic Judaism, which goes beyond simple obedience of what God says. I am caught between the extremes of ignoring part of what God commands in Christianity and traditional observance beyond what God says. I seek to practice a primitive religion that does all and only what God says. Omnis Scriptura et Sola Scriptura.

I also feel the struggle of doing more than I am but I find tremendous guidance and comfort in the incredibly powerful prophecy of Malachi 4. I particularly treasure these verses.

Malachi 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

So I persevere following the Lamb.

Revelation 14:4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

[jimmie]

[quote author="Frank T. Clark" source="/post/17606/thread" timestamp="1408116449
. I am caught between the extremes of ignoring part of what God commands in Christianity and traditional observance beyond what God says. I seek to practice a primitive religion that does all and only what God says. Omnis Scriptura et Sola Scriptura.

[/quote]

Sounds good to me.

[alon]

Most people who are on their own with this could be classified as God-fearers. They follow , but do not take on its whole yoke and become proselytes to Judaism; or in the case since Yeshua full Messianic Judaism. I was that way until I found a Messianic fellowship and a good Rabbi who I could study under. Even then, it took some time for me to come around to take on the full responsibilities of becoming Jewish/fully Messianic. However Biblically we are either Jewish or goyim- of the nations, pagans, heathens. Other than that the only distinctions were Strangers in the Gate or God-fearers. Wikkipedia actually has a decent dissertation on the subject:

Two kinds of proselytes in Judaism

There are two kinds of proselytes in Rabbinic Judaism; ger tzedek (righteous proselytes, proselytes of righteousness, religious proselyte, devout proselyte) and ger toshav (resident proselyte, proselytes of the gate, limited proselyte, half-proselyte)

A "righteous proselyte" is a gentile who has converted to Judaism, is bound to all the doctrines and precepts of the Jewish economy, and is considered a full member of the Jewish people. They are to be circumcised as adults (different from brit milah) and immersed in a mikvah should they wish to eat of the Passover sacrifice.

A "gate proselyte" is a resident alien who lives in the Land of Israel and follows some of the customs. They are not required to be circumcised nor to comply with the whole of the . They are bound only to conform to the Seven Laws of Noah (do not worship idols, do not blaspheme God's name, do not murder, do not commit fornication (immoral sexual acts), do not steal, do not tear the limb from a living animal, and do not fail to establish rule of law) to be assured of a place in the world to come.

Proselytes in early Christianity

The "religious proselytes" spoken of in Early Christian writings were likely righteous proselytes rather than gate proselytes. There is some debate however as to whether proselytes known as Godfearers (Phoboumenoi) and/or Worshippers (Sebomenoi)- who were baptized but not circumcised - into the righteous or gate category. A dispute over this subject is recorded in the Council of Jerusalem c.50, see also Circumcision in the Bible.

Since the council of Jerusalem was interpreted as if it were a pagan convocation, much like what was done with the rest of the B'rit Chadasha, I'll go with the designations Gods' people gave them. Circumcised or not, fully a proselyte to (Messianic) Judaism or not. Baptism is nothing more than immersion in the mikvah, called tevilah. And Christians do this wrong too, by the way.

God-fearers, to the best of my understanding are saved. And going this on your own this may be the best you can do. I'd just encourage you all not to eschew all of the traditions of Judaism. I don't follow what has come to be known as Rabbinical Judaism, with every tradition and fence in place. But I do find value in many of their holidays, traditions etc. Just saying keep an open mind.

Dan C

[Frank T. Clark]

Aug 15, 2014 14:17:44 GMT -8 alon said:

However Biblically we are either Jewish or goyim- of the nations, pagans, heathens.

This attitude is exactly why I don't participate more in this forum. Exclusiveness. Either you accept everything [Messianic]Judasim says or you are heathen. Even when there is clear teachings of disobedience to what the Bible teaches.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

[alon]

Aug 17, 2014 4:47:53 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Aug 15, 2014 14:17:44 GMT -8 alon said:

However Biblically we are either Jewish or goyim- of the nations, pagans, heathens.

This attitude is exactly why I don't participate more in this forum. Exclusiveness. Either you accept everything [Messianic]Judasim says or you are heathen. Even when there is clear teachings of disobedience to what the Bible teaches.

Show me. You can’t just say I am disobedient and leave it without proof from scripture. I have a whole thread on things I’ve learned here that I was wrong about, so I am demonstrably open to solid correction. Show me.

John 9:39 And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
:40 And some of the Pharisees which were with him heard these words, and said unto him, Are we blind also?
:41 Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye should have no sin: but now ye say, We see; therefore your sin remaineth.

All this says is that your feelings are hurt and you think I’m the heathen. So show me, with solid scriptural references- not just something that says you think I’m a blind sinner.

You ostensibly read the Statement of Faith here when you signed up, so you knew up front this is a Observant Messianic Judaism forum. Now you complain because we state our beliefs openly here. We don’t just fall in line with your view of scripture so we are exclusive- even though we’ve all allowed you to fellowship openly here, posting your views which basically are that we should all be Adventists but fully TO. I am sorry, but fully TO means Jewish, not Adventist.

I also gave two types of Gentiles who were seeking God. No one just becomes fully TO overnight. Even you, who are looking for more within what you have there are a Stranger in the Gate; a Gentile who is searching for answers, which puts you solidly in the Hebraic camp. Not the Adventist camp, where you seem to still have one foot solidly planted. They, like the rest of mainC will NEVER acknowledge and take on the full mantle of obedience, because they then would cease to exist as a separate entity; and like the Pharisees you just spoke of they are willfully blind to the truth of and will not give up the sin of controlling others!



I have no trouble fellowshipping with you, as you are Observant even though not taking on the full mantle of Judaism. I fail to see how that is exclusive. And again, you read the Statement of Faith here when you signed on, so you knew who and what we are on this site. Just speaking personally I still welcome your comments, insights, and fellowship. I do not however welcome anyone's trying to silence me or anyone else who speaks the truth of scripture as laid out in the Messianic faith and in accordance with the SoF of the parent synagogue of this site.

My personal belief, we are either:
* pagan- unsaved, or in some cases saved in spite of the pagan churches we attend(ed)
* ger toshav- TO Messianic proselyte or just TO- probably saved
* ger tzedek- TO Messianic- saved
* Jew- saved if they accept Yeshua

For the record, I am a ger toshav, and a proselyte to Messianic Judaism. For this I make no excuses to anyone, nor do I ask anyone’s permission besides God’s. And I never shrink from or bend the truth as I see it in scripture.

If that offends anyone I am sorry, but go argue with the One who wrote the Book; or prove to me I am wrong using the Book. Sola Scriptura is fine with me. Show me.

Dan C

edit: you by the way pulled out one line and used it out of context to fuel your indignation. Kindly go back and read the entire post, taking in the entire message and overall tone of my post before you reply. Please. It will save the discussion from becoming confrontational.

[Frank T. Clark]

Please understand me my brother. My feelings are not hurt but I seem to have touched a raw nerve. Either I seriously misunderstand you or I have been seriously misunderstood. I quoted you as saying:

Aug 15, 2014 14:17:44 GMT -8 alon said:

However Biblically we are either Jewish or goyim- of the nations, pagans, heathens.

I understood this to mean that either I eventually accept everything Messianic Judaism (Jewish) teaches or I am heathen. This I find objectionable.

Perhaps I took one line out of context but that is a blatant statement that illustrates the general impression I received from your post and often receive from others. The idea, from what you said, in context, is that if you are TO then eventually you eventually become Messianic Judaism Jewish or you are still on the path to being Messianic Judaism Jewish.

I never said you were disobedient and I do not believe you are knowingly. However, Judaism and therefore Messianic Judaism teaches many things that are not in the Bible except by stretching the meaning of the words and some things that contradict what the Bible says. I will prepare an example demonstrating this statement. This will take time.

I have never proposed Adventism to anyone on this forum so I have no idea where that attack came from. I happen to be a member of the Adventist denomination but that does not mean I put them forward as anything to follow. In fact I would say that I am a reluctant member who has serious misgivings. Much like you describe your attendance at AoG.

You made several other attacks, which I will not address at this time. I will allow a cooling off period then I will consider further responses.

I will clearly demonstrate failure to follow the Bible completely but as I said that will take careful preparation or you can explain to me the Biblical justification for calendar postponements, as an example. I am a serious student of the Biblical description of God's Sacred Calendar, which my study shows, does not match Jewish Messianic Judaism teaching and practice.

I sincerely do not wish to controversial, which is why I do not bring up issues where the practice of Jewish Messianic Judaism does not match the Bible.

[alon]

Aug 17, 2014 13:46:08 GMT -8 Frank T. Clark said:

Please understand me my brother. My feelings are not hurt but I seem to have touched a raw nerve. Either I seriously misunderstand you or I have been seriously misunderstood.

Probably both. Forums are good for that, but I think we can work it out without bloodshed. That's why I asked you to consider the tone of the post that offended you. I didn't mean to say anyone is a heathen just because you aren't MJ. Again, being TO puts you solidly in the same category as I find myself in at this time- a ger toshav.

I quoted you as saying:

Aug 15, 2014 14:17:44 GMT -8 alon said:

However Biblically we are either Jewish or goyim- of the nations, pagans, heathens.

I understood this to mean that either I eventually accept everything Messianic Judaism (Jewish) teaches or I am heathen. This I find objectionable.

And well you should, if that is what I said (or meant). I've said here many times, and still think that there are many who are saved even in the pagan denominations (and I make no apologies for calling them that). Many who either because they don't have access to a knowledgeable Rabbi or just due to their personal convictions will never move past the stage of being a ger toshav. But many of these people show more of the fruits of the spirit than I do! So never have I said they, or some of our brethren still laboring under mainC are not saved. All I will commit to on that topic is that the farther we go away from , the more likely we are to be deceived into thinking we are saved when not, and/or the more likely we are to fall away, to step away from our salvation. You personally do not seem to fall into that category, however the details are between you and God.

Perhaps I took one line out of context but that is a blatant statement that illustrates the general impression I received from your post and often receive from others. The idea, from what you said, in context, is that if you are TO then eventually you eventually become Messianic Judaism Jewish or you are still on the path to being Messianic Judaism Jewish.

Many, hopefully most will go on to become fully MJ. But as I said, not all. This doesn't invalidate their testimony, their witness, their opinions, their questions or their insights. However this is a discussion forum, read by many who've never posted here. If I disagree with what is said I will question it, as I expect to be questioned. Iron sharpens iron, and I'll never know I'm wrong unless I'm told. Easier to honestly think out what I'm told here and agree or not than to have God tell me- He usually has to apply his foot to my backside to get me straightened out!

I never said you were disobedient and I do not believe you are knowingly. However, Judaism and therefore Messianic Judaism teaches many things that are not in the Bible except by stretching the meaning of the words and some things that contradict what the Bible says. I will prepare an example demonstrating this statement. This will take time.

I apologize; I misunderstood. Look forward to your example.

I have never proposed Adventism to anyone on this forum so I have no idea where that attack came from. I happen to be a member of the Adventist denomination but that does not mean I put them forward as anything to follow. In fact I would say that I am a reluctant member who has serious misgivings. Much like you describe your attendance at AoG.

Not an attack, that is the impression I get from your posts. You are here questioning my laying out some of the tennets of my faith, and I am saying yours seems to be Adventist with observance. Yet I/we still fellowship openly with you here on an MJ forum. It is relevant because you accuse us of being exclusive; I'm saying you are proof we are not.

That is not to say we allow the preaching of other than MJ here. A list of recent violators banned by senior admin is proof of that. But fellowship, comments, questions, all this and more has been allowed here since long before I came here. A trip through the archives will attest to that.

You made several other attacks, which I will not address at this time. I will allow a cooling off period then I will consider further responses.

Sorry you took them as attacks. However I do have a tendency to stand my ground when I or my beliefs are attacked. If this wasn't your intent, then we don't have a problem. But please then don't quote me out of context, accuse me of being exclusive, then quote scripture about those blind and in sin. That generally will get my attention. Sorry if I misunderstood your intent, but I think you can see why I'd take it that way.

I will clearly demonstrate failure to follow the Bible completely but as I said that will take careful preparation or you can explain to me the Biblical justification for calendar postponements, as an example. I am a serious student of the Biblical description of God's Sacred Calendar, which my study shows, does not match Jewish Messianic Judaism teaching and practice.

I use the Hilel calendar as this is what most are used to. I do think the calendar should be based on the aviv barley. However there is always disagreement on the start of the new year, the aviv stage and even the new moon. So I simplify things and go with the majority. However I do not agree with those who want to base prophecy on the Hillel system or that say this is the correct calendar. Until the Temple is rebuilt and the priesthood reestablished in Jerusalem, I just have to go with what we got but ignore things like this "Blood Moon" nonsense going on right now. But I would be interested in your ideas on the calendar. Not sure where admin stands on this issue.

I sincerely do not wish to controversial, which is why I do not bring up issues where the practice of Jewish Messianic Judaism does not match the Bible.

Yes, that can be tough when on a forum with a set of rules which they enforce regarding doctrines and teachings that don't line up with MJ. And I can see how you might feel excluded from discussion at times. However I've been on forums which allow pretty much anything. They quickly become sewers of Ebionism, Dispensationalism, mainC coming on to tell us how we are all heretics for being TO, even Jews telling us we should not go past the Noahide Laws. So while you may feel somewhat excluded, I'd say count your blessings that this is a heavily moderated forum. It's just downright ugly on the rest of the net!

In closing, I generally enjoy your posts. I appreciate your restraint on controversy, but there is still much you can discuss that is not controversial, and in fact may not be too far off from, if not right in line with MJ! And that comment was not meant to question your salvation (meaning you wouldn't be a brother) nor to say you had to be MJ to fellowship either here, or if you were ever to visit, in my synagogue in person! But if you don't like being called a ger toshav- sorry, but by definition we both are, even though we both are on different paths.

Dan C

edit: regarding the forum being moderated; I'm getting an education right now on the ratio of people who apply here to fellowship and those who wish to come here for apparently (and sometimes admittedly!) nefarious purposes. As I've said many times, you wouldn't want an unmoderated forum.