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Post by Questor on Jul 27, 2014 22:49:18 GMT -8
I listened to a wonderful series on Hebrews...an in depth 46 part teaching on Hebrews - I only have gotten through parts 1 - 17 this week end, but they are really good, by David Lancaster at Beth Immanuel...a mostly gentile Messianic congregation that are serious about  Obedience, and are connected with First Fruits of Zion...an internet outreach to mostly Christians.
Anyway, we got to a specific two part lesson on dead works...and I loved it! It really brought out the meaning of the passage.
Hebrews 6:1 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:1-2 (CJB)
1 Therefore, leaving behind the initial lessons about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of turning from works that lead to death, trusting God,
2 and instruction about washings, s’mikhah, the resurrection of the dead and eternal punishment.
Not having been raised in a church, I never understood the passage above, rendered above in the KJV as dead works, pertained to leaving off sinning! To do tshuvah! To go, and sin no more! To literally practice NOT SINNING!
I just always heard that works were about following the Law in the odd TV sermon...another translation triumph over good grammar.
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Post by alon on Jul 28, 2014 6:27:44 GMT -8
I listened to a wonderful series on Hebrews...an in depth 46 part teaching on Hebrews - I only have gotten through parts 1 - 17 this week end, but they are really good, by David Lancaster at Beth Immanuel...a mostly gentile Messianic congregation that are serious about Obedience, and are connected with First Fruits of Zion...an internet outreach to mostly Christians.
Anyway, we got to a specific two part lesson on dead works...and I loved it! It really brought out the meaning of the passage.
Hebrews 6:1 (KJV)
1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
Hebrews 6:1-2 (CJB)
1 Therefore, leaving behind the initial lessons about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of turning from works that lead to death, trusting God,
2 and instruction about washings, s’mikhah, the resurrection of the dead and eternal punishment.
Not having been raised in a church, I never understood the passage above, rendered above in the KJV as dead works, pertained to leaving off sinning! To do tshuvah! To go, and sin no more! To literally practice NOT SINNING!
I just always heard that works were about following the Law in the odd TV sermon...another translation triumph over good grammar.
Heb 6:1 CJB Therefore, leaving behind the initial lessons about the Messiah, let us go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of turning from works that lead to death, trusting God, Heb 6:1 ESV Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God, Heb 6:1 YLT Wherefore, having left the word of the beginning of the Christ, unto the perfection we may advance, not again a foundation laying of reformation from dead works, and of faith on God, Dead works are works that accomplish nothing for the spiritual kingdom and thus lead to death. Many church programs fall into this category, as well as many people. Dead works are also trying to do things by our own strength and cunning which should be accomplished through faith in God to act for us. He is saying new believers need to take this step, leaving their own dead works behind and learn to trust God.
First Fruits of Zion has some very interesting courses. However they too have dead works in that they went over to Two House theology a few years back when a strong backer said they had to do that or he was pulling out. They suddenly got a revelation that the Two House movement was correct. I was looking at their courses so I asked and they confirmed they had went over to Two House Theology.
Dan (bet alef) C
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Post by Questor on Jul 28, 2014 20:12:38 GMT -8
Well, Lancaster is a good teacher...brings out a lot of the Talmud as well as the Disciples of John...so I can't tell about such silliness as Two House Theology...which is as bad, if not worse than replacement theology, being set on Anglo Saxons being the lost Ten tribes...which might be mixed into Europeans, but how one could know without a DNA test, I surely do not know. But I haven't yet found any speaker, teacher, or pastor who doesn't make errors, so I doubt it would trouble me. Still, I will be wary, thank you.
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Post by Questor on Jul 29, 2014 21:58:29 GMT -8
I stumbled over a Grace blog in regard to 2 Timothy 11, and Hebrews...Once Saved, Always saved kind, and it was soggy with grace, and not a word of obedience, so I added in my 3 cents.
Sadly, they didn't print it. I don't know if it was the part about losing your salvation if you grieved the Holy Spirit by lack of obedience to G-d, or my vehement discourse on 'dead works' not meaning just resting in Yehoshua for salvation, but striving for victory and life now by obedience to the commandments, and a better inheritance in the Olam Haba.
Sigh. I wasn't even trying to dispute their view point...just point out, with scriptural support, that they were focusing on the wrong translation of the words in Hebrews, or even the intent of the letter being to urge people toward teaching 'The Way', and spreading the Gospel of the Kingdom, and not always focusing on basic salvation and repentence as all that we need to do. Do you think it was because I mentioned falling off the narrow path? 
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Post by Questor on Jul 29, 2014 21:58:40 GMT -8
Lancaster had an interesting notion about why the book of Hebrews was written, stolen from his Dad, an Evangelical Pastor!
He said, what if around 63AD, which evidently Hebrews is closely tied to by scholars as to when it was written, and just after James the Just was murdered/Executed by the Saducees running the Temple then, the Temple elite began to tell the Messianic Jews who came to the Temple, and taught and discussed the Gospel of the Kingdom there daily were suddenly denied the Temple unless they recanted their adherence to Yehoshua.
It was a very turbulent time, and led directly to the Roman war with Israel that led to the destruction of the Temple, but many Messianic Jews in Jerusalem might have been feeling a great deal of pressure to leave their confession, and convert back to Judaism.
It would explain the rallying cry within the Book of Hebrews to renew themselves in the teaching of the Gospel to Jews, despite being threatened, and maybe kicked out of the Temple as Idolators.
What think you?
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Post by Questor on Jul 29, 2014 22:00:02 GMT -8
I cannot help but wonder just how many time Hebrews has been misread in the KJV and other Bibles, and used as a polemic against keeping the commandments of G-d? Just saying Dead Works a lot would convince a lot of people who don't read their Bibles with the Holy Spirit that works of any kind are a terrible idea.
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Obedience, and are connected with First Fruits of Zion...an internet outreach to mostly Christians.
