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Post by Questor on Jul 14, 2014 23:58:15 GMT -8
Despite claims to the contrary, there were many Obedient Christians of Greco-Roman derivation in the First Generation of Believers in 32-90 A.D., hidden amongst what we here at Ahavat Elohim call the Natzarim, and although imperfect then as now, we have to acknowledge that there are, here and there, Christians who attempt Obedience...a little bit at a time. It just might not look that way.
None of us outsiders to Judaism and pure Obedience as a lifestyle under Rabbinical Judaism can claim we are being Obedient, Messianic Jews excluded, of course.
I don't know that most Jews would claim they were completely Obedient, and certainly not Messianic Jews, and their proselytes. Modesty alone would prevent them from saying so, even if they thought they didn't need the Grace of Yehoshua to cover the dirt on their knees from falling down a great deal.
Jewish, Messianic, or Christian, no one is fully obedient to . We put each commandment in the onto our lives as fast as we learn how to perform them, and then, remembering what we have learned, attack the next commandment to put on, and then the next, until we are performing every mitzvot every day. Not perfectly of course, but making a good stab at it as we do each one, and trying not to bash our heads in for messing up, for this is what Yehoshua saves us from...a continual feeling of inadequacy.
We must be very careful not to acquire the tone of having mastered any obedience when we do not perform it regularly and completely. And we must be careful not to condemn those who do not claim Obedience, until we have looked at the fruit they bear.
For if I carry a small basket of apples and say I am Obedient, what are they who are Christians that push a large cart of grapes?
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Post by alon on Jul 15, 2014 0:25:16 GMT -8
I think I agree with most of that, except this:
Despite claims to the contrary, there were many Obedient Christians of Greco-Roman derivation in the First Generation of Believers in 32-90 A.D., hidden amongst what we here at Ahavat Elohim call the Natzarim, and although imperfect then as now, we have to acknowledge that there are, here and there, Christians who attempt Obedience...a little bit at a time. It just might not look that way. These were not Christians, but former pagans, proselytes of all kinds (Greco-Roman included) who were learning what we now call Messianic Judaism from 1st cen. Jewish believers.
The Christian Church came along later (2nd cen. CE), and as a reading of ANY of the surviving documents of the "church fathers" will show they were pagan and remained pagan, hating the Jews and the Natsarim. And they had no intentions of doing ANYTHING the Jews did- ESPECIALLY obey !
You probably think I am anti-Greek. LOL, I just finished a study on Greek vs. Hebrew by Rabbi S, and let me tell you, I WAS anti-Greek-light! Uh-huh!
The Jews of the Second Temple period hated the Greek language so much that they said “That it is better for a man to give his child meat of swine than to teach him the language of the Greek's.” (Lamsa p.10) These would have included the Jews who made up the Natsarim. And I agree- it is an affront to The Almighty to leave His word entrusted to this most pagan of languages, spoken by the most pagan goyim of that time; and we enter into damnation by basing our society on Greek culture, religion, and schools (and others).
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 15, 2014 8:26:17 GMT -8
Quester,
I have been musing on the below scriptures.
Luke 5:5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Zacharias and Elisabeth were blameless in there walk in the commandments and ordinances, yet all have sinned and come short.
Alon, Something that I can’t understand is, if it is wrong to write/read God’s words in Greek, then why is it okay to write/read God’s words in the Square Script borrowed from Babylon that we commonly call Hebrew? Shouldn’t God’s words only be written/read in Paleo-Hebrew in which it was originally recorded. If you think the Babylonian captivity had no affect on the Hebrew language, then why is there a month called Tammuz a pagan god and consort of Inanna/Ishtar?
Ez 8:14 Then he brought me to the door of the gate of the LORD'S house which was toward the north; and, behold, there sat women weeping for Tammuz.
And what do the Jews do during the month of Tammuz? They weep. I don’t think they weep for Tammuz, at least not knowingly. And main stream Christianity doesn’t worship the pagan gods that are contained in their holidays, at least not knowingly.
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Post by alon on Jul 15, 2014 9:12:25 GMT -8
Alon, Something that I can’t understand is, if it is wrong to write/read God’s words in Greek, then why is it okay to write/read God’s words in the Square Script borrowed from Babylon that we commonly call Hebrew? It was wrong to copy the B'rit Chadasha in Greek and claim that was the original language! A lie is a lie, and a lie about God's Word is heresy. But yes, it was also wrong for the Hebrews to even name their months, let alone name them after pagan gods. I do NOT think any of that was OK. Modifying their script- I don't know. The script wasn't made up of idols that I know. If it was, or if a connection could be shown other than that they developed in Babylon, then not good. But I just don't know.
The issue however is the language itself. How you talk is how you think, and vice-versa. Speaking like a pagan makes you a ... well, a pagan!
Good point about the Jews "weeping". That is a connection that might should be explored. However, the fall of Jerusalem and destruction of the Temples, as well as several other tragic events historically happened when they did. It is a time, however I don't get that they "weep." There is a fast, and a time of introspection and they try to correct the reasons for their exile so as to usher in the age of HaMoshiach. We know this is futile, but from their perspective it is what they should do..
My problem with Christianity is that more and more they are being told. My father preached on the pagan aspects of Christmas and Easter 50 yrs ago. Yet they go through these convoluted excuses to keep their traditions while excoriating the Jews for keeping theirs. And they refuse to even learn about the feasts, yet they insist on proclaiming prophecy like they were with John when Revelations was revealed! They are ignorant, and worse ignorant of their ignorance, but doggone proud of it! YOU CANNOT KNOW BIBLICAL PROPHECY UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND THE FEASTS OF THE LORD! (I hope they heard that ... not that it'd do any good.)
But by all means, you should research the connection to todays fast and weeping for Tamuz. Could be interesting.
Dan C
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Post by jimmie on Jul 15, 2014 10:31:02 GMT -8
My problem with Christianity is that more and more they are being told. My father preached on the pagan aspects of Christmas and Easter 50 yrs ago. Yet they go through these convoluted excuses to keep their traditions while excoriating the Jews for keeping theirs. And they refuse to even learn about the feasts, yet they insist on proclaiming prophecy like they were with John when Revelations was revealed! They are ignorant, and worse ignorant of their ignorance, but doggone proud of it! YOU CANNOT KNOW BIBLICAL PROPHECY UNLESS YOU UNDERSTAND THE FEASTS OF THE LORD! (I hope they heard that ... not that it'd do any good.) Dan C [/font][/quote] amen
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 17:57:08 GMT -8
Alon.. me going to go hide in my corner again to think. You nor your steed will find me for a while..hehehe
Moriah Ruth
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