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Post by Deleted on Jul 12, 2014 15:22:06 GMT -8
I heard someone pose this question today in a chat room that my husband was in.
The question was, "If God had put in the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill, (or murder, depending on what translation you are using), than why did He command the Israelites to kill their enemies?"
I thought that was an interesting question.
And does not the NT state to love your enemies?
So really, why did God command the Israelites to kill and than command them in His Ten Commandments to not kill?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Jul 12, 2014 18:59:11 GMT -8
I heard someone pose this question today in a chat room that my husband was in. The question was, "If God had put in the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill, (or murder, depending on what translation you are using), than why did He command the Israelites to kill their enemies?" I thought that was an interesting question. And does not the NT state to love your enemies? So really, why did God command the Israelites to kill and than command them in His Ten Commandments to not kill? Moriah Ruth
Think about the examples we've recently had even here- a string of posters who, while they didn't last long still spread their perverse doctrine of "love", as opposed to God's perfect version- making it to mean no one is punished and everyone goes home happy. You bet, sin is OK because God would never punish a sinner- he LOVES us just TOO much to do that ... the wages of sin is death, and if the Moabites are allowed to live in our midst we'll taste the second death as surely as they will. God is just and righteous, and He will punish those who disobey. And when He says kill all the occupants of the land, He means it. Look what happened to Israel when they left a few alive when occupying the Promised Land. They were led into idolatry by these few and every generation from then to now has paid a terrible price for their disobedience. True love thrusts the spear home, and like Phinehas, God rewards those whose zeal allows them to do the unthinkable for His names sake.
I was going to say just one man's opinion, but to be honest, I read part of this in a d'rash by an Orthodox Rabbi online.
Dan C
Since I mentioned the d'rash, he also made the point that by marrying or copulating outside their faith, these men who had made covenant with God and who were of His covenant people made God Himself a part of their sin! This is why God was so angry with the nation! Even those who were not actively sinning were allowing it to go on! Passive sin is still S*I*N!!! And whenever "good" people do NOTHING, ha satan is you better doggone well believe it busy! |
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Post by Questor on Jul 12, 2014 21:33:32 GMT -8
I heard someone pose this question today in a chat room that my husband was in. The question was, "If God had put in the Ten Commandments, Thou shalt not kill, (or murder, depending on what translation you are using), than why did He command the Israelites to kill their enemies?" I thought that was an interesting question. And does not the NT state to love your enemies? So really, why did God command the Israelites to kill and than command them in His Ten Commandments to not kill? Moriah Ruth
And yet protecting yourself and others against attack is certainly allowed. Many wars are for defense on one side, while the aggressor is generally explanding their territory. With the Israelites, G-d was requiring that certain tribes that were evil be terminated so that their non-Israelite ways would not be a snare to His Chosen Ones.
People who do not see all of G-d do not hear the parts well about judgement, and death is a penalty for many crimes...particularly idolatry. It is true that death is a bad part of this fallen world, and the result of free will. God uses the death of the body to chastise and school us, just as He uses all that occurs on this earth. And although there seems to be many years of suffering and loss to people on Earth, in reality, this life is such a brief bit of schooling before we move on to what comes next that we are not supposed to cling to tightly to it.
Our hearts are not softer than Adonai's heart, but we do not feel the pain and death in war the way G-d feels it, nor how He see's it...as a necessary evil. And since G-d created evil as well as good, He must know how best to use it to get things done.
Murder, on the other hand, is generally a crime based on personal pride, lust, and passion to obtain something from the one murdered, and is a personal crime, not a state one.
We do not have the right to murder people for personal gain. And even though wars between nations usually are fought over the lust for power and territory and riches, the men fighting the war have no personal motive, and are merely following the law as set within their society.
YHVH was not against the Israelites killing off the inhabitors of the land of Israel...quite the contrary, He was using it to fulfill a promise made to Avraham, and clearing out those that knew Him not from the land. YHVH owns all that He has created, and can destroy it at will if it is necessary to make a way for His will to be carried out.
And those killed in war that do not Believe? They too may have a part in the Kingdom of G-d if they kept the Noahide laws, and their countries laws, and walked uprightly. One simply has to remember that no matter how long this life seems to be, and so full of pain and suffing, it is but a little time of training for eternity. |
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Post by alon on Jul 12, 2014 21:50:38 GMT -8
People often assume that because Abba forbade people to murder each other that killing was not allowed under specific circumstances.
And yet protecting yourself and others against attack is certainly allowed. Many wars are for defense on one side, while the aggressor is generally explanding their territory. With the Israelites, G-d was requiring that certain tribes that were evil be terminated so that their non-Israelite ways would not be a snare to His Chosen Ones.
People who do not see all of G-d do not hear the parts well about judgement, and death is a penalty for many crimes...particularly idolatry. It is true that death is a bad part of this fallen world, and the result of free will. God uses the death of the body to chastise and school us, just as He uses all that occurs on this earth. And although there seems to be many years of suffering and loss to people on Earth, in reality, this life is such a brief bit of schooling before we move on to what comes next that we are not supposed to cling to tightly to it.
Our hearts are not softer than Adonai's heart, but we do not feel the pain and death in war the way G-d feels it, nor how He see's it...as a necessary evil. And since G-d created evil as well as good, He must know how best to use it to get things done.
Murder, on the other hand, is generally a crime based on personal pride, lust, and passion to obtain something from the one murdered, and is a personal crime, not a state one.
We do not have the right to murder people for personal gain. And even though wars between nations usually are fought over the lust for power and territory and riches, the men fighting the war have no personal motive, and are merely following the law as set within their society.
YHVH was not against the Israelites killing off the inhabitors of the land of Israel...quite the contrary, He was using it to fulfill a promise made to Avraham, and clearing out those that knew Him not from the land. YHVH owns all that He has created, and can destroy it at will if it is necessary to make a way for His will to be carried out.
And those killed in war that do not Believe? They too may have a part in the Kingdom of G-d if they kept the Noahide laws, and their countries laws, and walked uprightly. One simply has to remember that no matter how long this life seems to be, and so full of pain and suffing, it is but a little time of training for eternity.
Now, knowing you a bit I'm betting this was one of those senior moments we are all prone to. But still, I have to ask ... 
Dan C
Edit: that's not a frowny face, btw. It's what you get when you type in three question marks.
(See there, what'd I tell ya')
(oops! three question marks and no immediate punctuation, I guess )
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Post by Deleted on Jul 14, 2014 4:16:01 GMT -8
Thank you for your response Questor and Alon.
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Post by Questor on Jul 14, 2014 23:14:47 GMT -8
People often assume that because Abba forbade people to murder each other that killing was not allowed under specific circumstances.
And yet protecting yourself and others against attack is certainly allowed. Many wars are for defense on one side, while the aggressor is generally explanding their territory. With the Israelites, G-d was requiring that certain tribes that were evil be terminated so that their non-Israelite ways would not be a snare to His Chosen Ones.
People who do not see all of G-d do not hear the parts well about judgement, and death is a penalty for many crimes...particularly idolatry. It is true that death is a bad part of this fallen world, and the result of free will. God uses the death of the body to chastise and school us, just as He uses all that occurs on this earth. And although there seems to be many years of suffering and loss to people on Earth, in reality, this life is such a brief bit of schooling before we move on to what comes next that we are not supposed to cling to tightly to it.
Our hearts are not softer than Adonai's heart, but we do not feel the pain and death in war the way G-d feels it, nor how He see's it...as a necessary evil. And since G-d created evil as well as good, He must know how best to use it to get things done.
Murder, on the other hand, is generally a crime based on personal pride, lust, and passion to obtain something from the one murdered, and is a personal crime, not a state one.
We do not have the right to murder people for personal gain. And even though wars between nations usually are fought over the lust for power and territory and riches, the men fighting the war have no personal motive, and are merely following the law as set within their society.
YHVH was not against the Israelites killing off the inhabitors of the land of Israel...quite the contrary, He was using it to fulfill a promise made to Avraham, and clearing out those that knew Him not from the land. YHVH owns all that He has created, and can destroy it at will if it is necessary to make a way for His will to be carried out.
And those killed in war that do not Believe? They too may have a part in the Kingdom of G-d if they kept the Noahide laws, and their countries laws, and walked uprightly. One simply has to remember that no matter how long this life seems to be, and so full of pain and suffing, it is but a little time of training for eternity.
Now, knowing you a bit I'm betting this was one of those senior moments we are all prone to. But still, I have to ask ...
Dan C
Edit: that's not a frowny face, btw. It's what you get when you type in three question marks.
(See there, what'd I tell ya')
(oops! three question marks and no immediate punctuation, I guess )
The Noahide laws form the basis for every tribe's civilization, and Jews have always said that those not of Israel would have a part in the Kingdom to come. The Talmud derived what they called the Noachide Laws from their records and observations, as well as general history, but none the less, they have been in process everywhere. They are the first moral code acknowledged by everyone in some manner.
Respect the Creator.
Respect human life.
Respect the institution of marriage.
Respect the rights and property of others.
Respect G-d's creatures.
Maintain justice.
All peoples have these six laws undergirding their civilization...they just have their own version of them, and depending on the knowledge of YHVH being broadcast about, and that of Yehoshua, they still will stand those that Yehoshua allows in good stead, and I will let Him handle that problem at the White Throne Judgement.
If they have heard and understood who YHVH is, and what Yehoshua has done, and deliberately turned from Them, well, that's what the Lake of Fire is for.
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Post by alon on Jul 15, 2014 0:02:08 GMT -8
Very similar to the Christian doctrine that "they will be judged according to the light given them." I always had a bit of a problem with that, but honestly I'm just glad that it will be God, not me, who deals with that ... I wouldn't know where to start.
Rom 10:14 How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
I don't really know where I stand on this one, but I do know it would be best if they heard the whole gospel, the whole besorah of Yeshua, from  to the Revelation of John. Had I not heard the true Good News AND moved forward into the faith of the Natsarim, I honestly think I'd have fallen away again, this time for the last time. There is just too much wrong, and too many who think they are saved but who are enemy agents accepted into our own lines by ignorant ...  (RANT ABORTED!)
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2014 17:50:41 GMT -8
Are you ranting again Alon..tsk tsk.
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Post by alon on Jul 16, 2014 20:30:19 GMT -8
Are you ranting again Alon..tsk tsk. Hey, I stopped! A little slack here ...  sheesh ... Dan |
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Post by Elizabeth on Jul 17, 2014 12:41:09 GMT -8
My response isn't nearly so well thought out, but this is how I make sense or it . . he knew to preserve the life he created and intends, ironically, he had to cause death. Kind of like the great flood. In that instance you could say he destroyed the world, but in reality, he saved not only Noah but the world because here we are seeking him. I like the distinction kill and murder mentioned above and pointing out it was at God's command. He is the only one who can know when there is no more hope for someone. Him telling us to pray for our enemies is just an amazing gift of hope on all fronts and shows us his own heart. It gives us responsibility to work to overcome evil in a way that lifts life up.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2014 5:09:24 GMT -8
Good point Elizabeth.
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- there are 70 faces to 
(RANT ABORTED!)
sheesh ...
