|
|
Post by alon on Jun 29, 2014 22:11:06 GMT -8
Who here considers themselves to be a proselyte to Messianic Judaism?
From the Online Dictionary:
Messianic Judaism can be any sect of MJ, but must be at least looking for your answers within MJ more than traditional Christianity. While the poll acknowledges there is some truth in Christianity, for our purposes here you must be "all in" with MJ. No turning back, so to speak.
Please give the reasons for your answer in a short post.
Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jun 29, 2014 22:56:30 GMT -8
yesJust by definition, I am a convert to Messianism; still learning, but for me there is no turning back. God does not change, and salvation has always been through the Jewish people and nation, by YHVH's design. Romans 4:3 "For what does the Tanakh say? "Avraham put his trust in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness.""
Genesis 15:6 "He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness."So Rav Sha'ul, quoting Genesis says basically that salvation was the same as always. In fact, since Avraham predated the law by some 400 yrs, it couldn't have been the law but his trust in YHVH, which prompted the act of grace we call salvation. Galatians 3:8-9 "Also the Tanakh, foreseeing that God would consider the Gentiles righteous when they live by trusting and being faithful, told the Good News to Avraham in advance by saying, "In connection with you, all the Goyim will be blessed." So then, those who rely on trusting and being faithful are blessed along with Avraham, who trusted and was faithful."
Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Again, Rav Sha'ul quoting one of the most famous lines in Messianic Judaism, says all the "nations" (goyim) will be blessed. This, I believe to speak prophetically to the time after Yeshua from the second century CE on; but also to the time from the Exodus onward. In fact, it would have spoke to the entire household of Avraham, as they sojourned with him. Exodus 12:38 "A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds."These were Gentiles who had put their trust in the God of the Hebrews. Obviously I have, for brevities sake, focused on trust here. That is not to downplay the role of repentence. Obviously Avraham had repented, as he was raised an idolator, yet left it all to follow a jealous and very monotheistic God. But again, God does not change, and neither does His salvation. Malachi 3:6 "But because I, ADONAI, do not change, you sons of Ya'akov will not be destroyed."
James 1:17 "Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning."
Hebrews 13:8 "Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever." So I am a proselyte to  Observant Messianic Judaism- not because adherence to the law will save me, but because YHVH designed it that way. John 14:15 "If you love me, you will keep my commands;"
Romans 3:1 & 2 "Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised? Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God."Dan C
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 29, 2014 23:29:45 GMT -8
yesJust by definition, I am a convert to Messianism; still learning, but for me there is no turning back. God does not change, and salvation has always been through the Jewish people and nation, by YHVH's design. Romans 4:3 "For what does the Tanakh say? "Avraham put his trust in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness.""
Genesis 15:6 "He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness."So Rav Sha'ul, quoting Genesis says basically that salvation was the same as always. In fact, since Avraham predated the law by some 400 yrs, it couldn't have been the law but his trust in YHVH, which prompted the act of grace we call salvation. Galatians 3:8-9 "Also the Tanakh, foreseeing that God would consider the Gentiles righteous when they live by trusting and being faithful, told the Good News to Avraham in advance by saying, "In connection with you, all the Goyim will be blessed." So then, those who rely on trusting and being faithful are blessed along with Avraham, who trusted and was faithful."
Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Again, Rav Sha'ul quoting one of the most famous lines in Messianic Judaism, says all the "nations" (goyim) will be blessed. This, I believe to speak prophetically to the time after Yeshua from the second century CE on; but also to the time from the Exodus onward. In fact, it world have spoke to the entire household of Avraham, as they sojourned with him. Exodus 12:38 "A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds."These were Gentiles who had put their trust in the God of the Hebrews. Obviously I have, for brevities sake, focused on trust here. That is not to downplay the role of repentence. Obviously Avraham had repented, as he was raised an idolator, yet left it all to follow a jealous and very monotheistic God. But again, God does not change, and neither does His salvation. Malachi 3:6 "But because I, ADONAI, do not change, you sons of Ya'akov will not be destroyed."
James 1:17 "Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning."Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever."
Hebrews 13:8 "Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever."Dan C
I fit the Proselyte category, which takes all of the Scriptures into account, not just a few snippets from the Brit Chadashah. I may be a Proselyte, but I am so newly within the gate that I still think of myself as a Messianic Gentile, when differentiating between MJ's of Jewish heritage and training, and those of us that have rejected MainC Christianity as being surface deep with little committment within the MainC Churches.
I also have no interest at this time in the customs, precedents and traditions of the Jews in applying the Torah to my life, but I acknowledge the value of the Mishna and Talmud, which I do seek knowledge of, primarily because I think that Rabbi Akiva resented the Messianic Jews so much that he went a bit overboard in writing down information slanted against the Notsri, and the Rabbi's ever since have carried on the tradition, blinded by the persecution of the Paganized Christian groups.
I know many a proselyte that has never gone beyond keeping 8 or 9 of the Ten Commandments, and cannot understand why I am so 'Jewish' these days...just for attempting to keep the Sabbath and the Moedim, and Kashrut...and very badly too!
However, there are proselytes hidden within the MainC Churches that bear fruit because they strive to do as Yehoshua did, and to act as Rav Sha'ul told them to...being kind, and patient, and long-suffering...putting Abba first in their lives to the extent of their understanding...they are indeed saved, and have sufficient acquaintance with Yehoshua to not be told..."I never knew you."
Unfortunately, it is a bit hard to get them to understand that, however, and consequently they snarl at me a bit here and there, usually on Friday afternoons, when they are reminded that the Sabbath is about to begin.
They also do not understand my intermittant interest in learning Hebrew either...but then, neither do I!
|
|
alex
New Member
Posts: 17 
|
Post by alex on Jun 29, 2014 23:52:57 GMT -8
yesJust by definition, I am a convert to Messianism; still learning, but for me there is no turning back. God does not change, and salvation has always been through the Jewish people and nation, by YHVH's design. Romans 4:3 "For what does the Tanakh say? "Avraham put his trust in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness.""
Genesis 15:6 "He believed in ADONAI, and he credited it to him as righteousness."So Rav Sha'ul, quoting Genesis says basically that salvation was the same as always. In fact, since Avraham predated the law by some 400 yrs, it couldn't have been the law but his trust in YHVH, which prompted the act of grace we call salvation. Galatians 3:8-9 "Also the Tanakh, foreseeing that God would consider the Gentiles righteous when they live by trusting and being faithful, told the Good News to Avraham in advance by saying, "In connection with you, all the Goyim will be blessed." So then, those who rely on trusting and being faithful are blessed along with Avraham, who trusted and was faithful."
Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, but I will curse anyone who curses you; and by you all the families of the earth will be blessed." Again, Rav Sha'ul quoting one of the most famous lines in Messianic Judaism, says all the "nations" (goyim) will be blessed. This, I believe to speak prophetically to the time after Yeshua from the second century CE on; but also to the time from the Exodus onward. In fact, it world have spoke to the entire household of Avraham, as they sojourned with him. Exodus 12:38 "A mixed crowd also went up with them, as well as livestock in large numbers, both flocks and herds."These were Gentiles who had put their trust in the God of the Hebrews. Obviously I have, for brevities sake, focused on trust here. That is not to downplay the role of repentence. Obviously Avraham had repented, as he was raised an idolator, yet left it all to follow a jealous and very monotheistic God. But again, God does not change, and neither does His salvation. Malachi 3:6 "But because I, ADONAI, do not change, you sons of Ya'akov will not be destroyed."
James 1:17 "Every good act of giving and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father who made the heavenly lights; with him there is neither variation nor darkness caused by turning."Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever."
Hebrews 13:8 "Yeshua the Messiah is the same yesterday, today and forever."Dan C
I fit the Proselyte category, which takes all of the Scriptures into account, not just a few snippets from the Brit Chadashah. I may be a Proselyte, but I am so newly within the gate that I still think of myself as a Messianic Gentile, when differentiating between MJ's of Jewish heritage and training, and those of us that have rejected MainC Christianity as being surface deep with little committment within the MainC Churches.
I also have no interest at this time in the customs, precedents and traditions of the Jews in applying the Torah to my life, but I acknowledge the value of the Mishna and Talmud, which I do seek knowledge of, primarily because I think that Rabbi Akiva resented the Messianic Jews so much that he went a bit overboard in writing down information slanted against the Notsri, and the Rabbi's ever since have carried on the tradition, blinded by the persecution of the Paganized Christian groups.
I know many a proselyte that has never gone beyond keeping 8 or 9 of the Ten Commandments, and cannot understand why I am so 'Jewish' these days...just for attempting to keep the Sabbath and the Moedim, and Kashrut...and very badly too!
However, there are proselytes hidden within the MainC Churches that bear fruit because they strive to do as Yehoshua did, and to act as Rav Sha'ul told them to...being kind, and patient, and long-suffering...putting Abba first in their lives to the extent of their understanding...they are indeed saved, and have sufficient acquaintance with Yehoshua to not be told..."I never knew you."
Unfortunately, it is a bit hard to get them to understand that, however, and consequently they snarl at me a bit here and there, usually on Friday afternoons, when they are reminded that the Sabbath is about to begin.
They also do not understand my intermittant interest in learning Hebrew either...but then, neither do I!
No
I cannot see myself as a Proselyte just yet, and I do not know if that is in my future. I understand that obedience is necessary to please God, but to me a Proselyte is someone living amongst the Jews...within the gate, and in constant contact with their culture and teachings.
Also, to me a Proselyte to Judaism, even Messianic Judaism, requires taking on all of the , Mishna, and Talmud, as it is a 3 year preparation for conversion to Messianic Judaism. It might take longer than 3 years, and no one would be concerned within Messianic Judaism, because unless you convert, you are not a Jew of any kind. Worse, all the other sects of Judaism do not even recognize Messianic Judaism as being Jewish, and you cannot just be a non-observant Jew as a convert...that is only okay for Jews born within the tribal group.
I have no desire to be adopted into Judaism as a tribal member and that is what a proselyte is preparing for...total inclusion into the tribe of Judah. And if I did, I would have a great deal of trouble getting most of my tribal relatives to even acknowledge my adoption...and since it is a tribal adoption we are speaking of...one needs the Tribe of Judah to agree to it...not just one sect of faith that has no authority to bind tribal identity on new converts.
I guess that makes me not included, except within the kindness of the Messianic Jews...who aren't recognized as Jews either, even if Orthodox in observance, because of the Rabbinical Jews view of Yeshua.
I would however describe myself as a member of the Israelite nation through Abraham, as it is accurate. Abraham was deemed righteous through faith, and so am I.
|
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jun 30, 2014 17:41:54 GMT -8
Yes
I fit the Proselyte category, which takes all of the Scriptures into account, not just a few snippets from the Brit Chadashah. I may be a Proselyte, but I am so newly within the gate that I still think of myself as a Messianic Gentile, when differentiating between MJ's of Jewish heritage and training, and those of us that have rejected MainC Christianity as being surface deep with little committment within the MainC Churches.
I also have no interest at this time in the customs, precedents and traditions of the Jews in applying the Torah to my life, but I acknowledge the value of the Mishna and Talmud, which I do seek knowledge of, primarily because I think that Rabbi Akiva resented the Messianic Jews so much that he went a bit overboard in writing down information slanted against the Notsri, and the Rabbi's ever since have carried on the tradition, blinded by the persecution of the Paganized Christian groups.
I know many a proselyte that has never gone beyond keeping 8 or 9 of the Ten Commandments, and cannot understand why I am so 'Jewish' these days...just for attempting to keep the Sabbath and the Moedim, and Kashrut...and very badly too!
However, there are proselytes hidden within the MainC Churches that bear fruit because they strive to do as Yehoshua did, and to act as Rav Sha'ul told them to...being kind, and patient, and long-suffering...putting Abba first in their lives to the extent of their understanding...they are indeed saved, and have sufficient acquaintance with Yehoshua to not be told..."I never knew you."
Unfortunately, it is a bit hard to get them to understand that, however, and consequently they snarl at me a bit here and there, usually on Friday afternoons, when they are reminded that the Sabbath is about to begin.
They also do not understand my intermittant interest in learning Hebrew either...but then, neither do I!
No
I cannot see myself as a Proselyte just yet, and I do not know if that is in my future. I understand that obedience is necessary to please God, but to me a Proselyte is someone living amongst the Jews...within the gate, and in constant contact with their culture and teachings.
Also, to me a Proselyte to Judaism, even Messianic Judaism, requires taking on all of the , Mishna, and Talmud, as it is a 3 year preparation for conversion to Messianic Judaism. It might take longer than 3 years, and no one would be concerned within Messianic Judaism, because unless you convert, you are not a Jew of any kind. Worse, all the other sects of Judaism do not even recognize Messianic Judaism as being Jewish, and you cannot just be a non-observant Jew as a convert...that is only okay for Jews born within the tribal group.
I have no desire to be adopted into Judaism as a tribal member and that is what a proselyte is preparing for...total inclusion into the tribe of Judah. And if I did, I would have a great deal of trouble getting most of my tribal relatives to even acknowledge my adoption...and since it is a tribal adoption we are speaking of...one needs the Tribe of Judah to agree to it...not just one sect of faith that has no authority to bind tribal identity on new converts.
I guess that makes me not included, except within the kindness of the Messianic Jews...who aren't recognized as Jews either, even if Orthodox in observance, because of the Rabbinical Jews view of Yeshua.
I would however describe myself as a member of the Israelite nation through Abraham, as it is accurate. Abraham was deemed righteous through faith, and so am I.
I am saved in Yehoshua, and for love of G-d want to be obedient, but I do not want to be adopted in...even if I could be, which I can't, since as you say, the Mainstream Rabinnical Jews are a large part of the tribe of Judah, Benjamites, and Levites, and they will not allow adoption in to their tribe, not of someone believing in Yehoshua as Messiah.
But I too, by faith, am an Israelite in the Abrahamic sense. So, I am by faith a proselyte, and by adoption, an Israelite...and neither make me Jewish at all. As you say, Judaism is a tribal matter...not just a faith. |
|
|
|
Post by Frank T. Clark on Jul 4, 2014 7:15:23 GMT -8
NO. I am not a proselyte of Messianic Judaism. I share a belief in ALL the Bible and observance as defined by the Bible but I have no particular interest in the teachings of Messianic Judaism that go beyond the Bible or attempt to provide a traditional Biblical interpretation. I have an analogy for my situation. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: I am on a path leading to the "strait gate". On the right is the camp of Messianic Judaism. On the left is the camp of Christianity. Those in the camp of Messianic Judaism see me in front of the camp of Christianity and call me a Christian. Those in the camp of Christianity see me in front of the camp of Messianic Judaism and call me a Jew. I continue forward to the "strait gate" and I don't care what you call me. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jul 4, 2014 19:50:51 GMT -8
NO. I am not a proselyte of Messianic Judaism. I share a belief in ALL the Bible and observance as defined by the Bible but I have no particular interest in the teachings of Messianic Judaism that go beyond the Bible or attempt to provide a traditional Biblical interpretation. I have an analogy for my situation. Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: I am on a path leading to the "strait gate". On the right is the camp of Messianic Judaism. On the left is the camp of Christianity. Those in the camp of Messianic Judaism see me in front of the camp of Christianity and call me a Christian. Those in the camp of Christianity see me in front of the camp of Messianic Judaism and call me a Jew. I continue forward to the "strait gate" and I don't care what you call me. Just for my part, I never saw you as "Christian." You are TO, which takes you immediately out of the mainstream of Protestant religion which the name Christian would imply. That you don't follow quite the path I chose is not a problem. I'm not into Rabbinical Judaism either, which is the extreme most think of any time the word Judaism comes up. But I do follow the teachings of a Messianic Rabbi. I find a lot of good, a lot of beauty and a whole lot of truth in MJ. It's where God has called me, but He doesn't call everyone here. That we are TO is the main thing, and the basis of our fellowship. Frank, thanks for your honesty there. Always count on you for the truth as you see it. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jul 4, 2014 19:55:45 GMT -8
No
I cannot see myself as a Proselyte just yet, and I do not know if that is in my future. I understand that obedience is necessary to please God, but to me a Proselyte is someone living amongst the Jews...within the gate, and in constant contact with their culture and teachings.
Also, to me a Proselyte to Judaism, even Messianic Judaism, requires taking on all of the , Mishna, and Talmud, as it is a 3 year preparation for conversion to Messianic Judaism. It might take longer than 3 years, and no one would be concerned within Messianic Judaism, because unless you convert, you are not a Jew of any kind. Worse, all the other sects of Judaism do not even recognize Messianic Judaism as being Jewish, and you cannot just be a non-observant Jew as a convert...that is only okay for Jews born within the tribal group.
I have no desire to be adopted into Judaism as a tribal member and that is what a proselyte is preparing for...total inclusion into the tribe of Judah. And if I did, I would have a great deal of trouble getting most of my tribal relatives to even acknowledge my adoption...and since it is a tribal adoption we are speaking of...one needs the Tribe of Judah to agree to it...not just one sect of faith that has no authority to bind tribal identity on new converts.
I guess that makes me not included, except within the kindness of the Messianic Jews...who aren't recognized as Jews either, even if Orthodox in observance, because of the Rabbinical Jews view of Yeshua.
I would however describe myself as a member of the Israelite nation through Abraham, as it is accurate. Abraham was deemed righteous through faith, and so am I.
I am saved in Yehoshua, and for love of G-d want to be obedient, but I do not want to be adopted in...even if I could be, which I can't, since as you say, the Mainstream Rabinnical Jews are a large part of the tribe of Judah, Benjamites, and Levites, and they will not allow adoption in to their tribe, not of someone believing in Yehoshua as Messiah.
But I too, by faith, am an Israelite in the Abrahamic sense. So, I am by faith a proselyte, and by adoption, an Israelite...and neither make me Jewish at all. As you say, Judaism is a tribal matter...not just a faith. You need to find someone who hasn't replied but wants to say " yes" and get them to say " I don't know."  The question is, where do you stand as the poll defined the categories.  If you can't find anyone to trade votes with, you'll probably have to get admin to change your vote. Don't think I can help ...  There is no wrong answer to this poll, folks. I was just wondering where we were all at.  Dan  C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jul 4, 2014 20:23:44 GMT -8
I cannot see myself as a Proselyte just yet, and I do not know if that is in my future. I understand that obedience is necessary to please God, but to me a Proselyte is someone living amongst the Jews...within the gate, and in constant contact with their culture and teachings. Just continue to go where God leads you would be my advice. If He wants you to live amongst the Jews (beware, it is they who are amongst us!  ) He will make the opportunity happen. That's how it was with me. I was struggling in Hebrew Roots and getting fed mostly off the net, and I looked hard for an MJ synagogue anywhere close. Then after I'd quit looking, out of the blue I get this MJ community literally dropped in my lap! All of , yes. And we learn from Talmud (of which the Mishna is the base part), even as Yeshua taught extensively from Mishna. However we do not take on the whole of it. That would be Rabbinical Judaism, which we do not practice. You are correct that mainstream Judaism does not recognize us. We, on the other hand, don't care what anyone thinks of us other than God. If HE says we are Jews, then who can say different? You are grafted onto the Hebrew stock at your salvation. It is we who are converted when we accept Yeshua, not the Jewish believer. We in effect become Jews, otherwise we have no part in the promises, including salvation. It is just a question of what kind of Jew we become. And we should become what God makes us. Hos 6:6 "For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."
Rom 1:5 "By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:"Knowledge of God and obedience to go where He sends us is the goal. So stay with it! Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jul 5, 2014 15:19:32 GMT -8
Back to NO.Alex, from your tribal affiliation definition of a proselyte, I would have to say I am not a proselyte after all...just a Messianic Gentile.
I am saved in Yehoshua, and for love of G-d want to be obedient, but I do not want to be adopted in...even if I could be, which I can't, since as you say, the Mainstream Rabinnical Jews are a large part of the tribe of Judah, Benjamites, and Levites, and they will not allow adoption in to their tribe, not of someone believing in Yehoshua as Messiah.
But I too, by faith, am an Israelite in the Abrahamic sense. So, I am by faith a proselyte, and by adoption, an Israelite...and neither make me Jewish at all. As you say, Judaism is a tribal matter...not just a faith. You need to find someone who hasn't replied but wants to say " yes" and get them to say " I don't know." The question is, where do you stand as the poll defined the categories. If you can't find anyone to trade votes with, you'll probably have to get admin to change your vote. Don't think I can help ... There is no wrong answer to this poll, folks. I was just wondering where we were all at. Dan C |
|
- there are 70 faces to 
C
