Messianic Jews vs Messianic Gentiles

[alex]

From reading the various articles on the site, I see that there is much confusion over just what a Messianic Believer is supposed to do to live righteously.

I do not question that this is a Observant site of Messianic Belief, but I am aware that there are as many beliefs and customs in regards to obedience as there are Messianics.  Those that were born and raised in a Jewish environment, whether in non-Messianic Judaism or in Messianic Judaism retain all of their Jewish customs, and seek to keep all 613 of the Talmudically ascertained commandments.

Those that were born Gentile, and want to know what pleases God, and Yehshua seem less than convinced about what to do.

Yeshua's teachings were given to practicing Jews, not to the Gentile world as so many in the mainstream Christian churches believe.  All of what Yeshua was talking about was in regard to practicing Jews.

Then, when the Apostles went out to the world after Yeshua's death, they went to the Jews first, and only when the Jews would not listen did they seek followers among the Greeks.

Acts 15:19-29 (CJB)
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!


The Jerusalem Church had a starting point for Gentiles to enter into the New Covenant...continue in the Noahide Laws (though that was not mentioned...yet almost all civilizations keep them.), and also refrain from eating things sacrificed to Idols, or eating strangled things, eating blood, and refraining from promiscuity.

So, a Gentile has the Noahide Laws, and the Jerusalem Council's admonitions to encourage fellowship.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta (dated to 220 CE) and the Babylonian Talmud (dated to 300 CE) are:

1. The prohibition of idolatry.
2. The prohibition of murder.
3. The prohibition of theft.
4. The prohibition of sexual immorality.
5. The prohibition of blasphemy.
6. The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.


The remaining laws stated by the Jerusalem council would be:

8. abstain from things polluted by idols,
9. abstain from fornication,
10. abstain from what is strangled and
11. abstain from blood.


So, we have basic civil law covered, and the beginning of kosher laws.

If you add on loving God with all your mind, heart, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, to keep company with the Messianic Jews we need only add keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, and keeping the feasts.

Or you could say, we are to keep the Ten Commandments, the Kosher Laws, and the Feasts, and love our Neighbors as ourselves, right?

[alon]

alex, we all started in Messianism with a lot of baggage from traditional Christian "wisdom"/"ignorance". I see many of these misconceptions in your post here, and am reminded of where I started. To start, the title is an oxymoron- you simply cannot be a "Messianic Gentile". The term translated Gentile is typically "goy" or the plural "goyim". This can mean nation or nations, but also can mean pagan as the nations other than the Hebrews were all pagan. You cannot be a "Christian" (mainC) and not be goy, and you cannot truly be a Messianic and be a pagan at the same time.

Jun 26, 2014 21:45:10 GMT -8 alex said:

From reading the various articles on the site, I see that there is much confusion ...

True. We are all learning. I even have an "I was wrong" thread.

Another problem is that no one, even Yeshua Himself, ever did or could keep all 613 mitzvoth. He was not a Levite, and over half the mitzvoth pertain strictly to the Levites, their conduct and duties. So to have even attempted to keep one of these would have been a sin, and thus would have disqualified Him as Messiah.

Those that were born Gentile, and want to know what pleases God, and Yehshua seem less than convinced about what to do.

If you were born a Gentile, and you want to become Messianic, then you are entering as a proselyte into that sect of Judaism. You will be disowned by Christianity, even as you come to disown them. And you will never be accepted as Jewish by the Jews. So it can be a lonely road and a hard struggle, but worth it in my experience.

Yeshua's teachings were given to practicing Jews, not to the Gentile world as so many in the mainstream Christian churches believe.

And that statement puts you MILES ahead of where most of us started. Well said!

Then, when the Apostles went out to the world after Yeshua's death, they went to the Jews first, and only when the Jews would not listen did they seek followers among the Greeks.

Again, this is mainstream teaching, and is in error. The First cen. church was almost entirely Jewish, and most mainC will even agree to this. Yet they persist in saying the Jews did not accept Yeshua. Which is it? Both cannot be true. Obviously many, many Jews accepted their Messiah, but sadly not all.

Another misconception here is that Jews did not evangelize. They don't today; and in fact will discourage you if you wish to become Jewish. But they did then. But then as now, salvation came to us (Gentiles)through the Jews. In the account of the Exodus, for example, many who went with the Hebrews were not Hebrew. Some became proselytes, while others did not. But all were given one law; Exo 12:49 "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." Which brings us to the next misconception:

Acts 15:19-29 (CJB)
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!

Those four observances were a starting point to be accepted into fellowship. The key to understanding his passage is the immediately following statement "For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him." "Moshe" is here a euphemism for "." This means that as they attend synagogue and hear taught, they will learn to become Jewish.

The Jerusalem Church had a starting point for Gentiles to enter into the New Covenant...continue in the Noahide Laws (though that was not mentioned...yet almost all civilizations keep them.), and also refrain from eating things sacrificed to Idols, or eating strangled things, eating blood, and refraining from promiscuity.

Anyone who tells you that you can keep anything less than Observance and be Messianic is still speaking from their teaching in mainC; or possibly is a Jewish person who is jealouse of his/her customs. As someone who lives with a Jew (relax, I married her) I can tell you what it means to make them jealouse. Every once in a while she still screams at me "You are NOT Jewish!" What can I say to that- I am a recovering Baptist, and you just can't get more pagan than THAT! Just as with being a Christian, anyone can fly the flag/ hang their banner/ put up a cross. But not everyone who does so is truly Christian. So it is with Messianism. Many call themselves Messianic, yet through ignorance or too often demonic inspiration teach things that are wrong. Others of us are/were Baptists ... _*sigh*

And ignorance is treatable- it does not have to be a permanent condition! Again, we are all still learning here. to say, that includes a whole lot of unlearning as well!!!

Dan C

[Questor]

Jun 26, 2014 21:45:10 GMT -8 alex said:

From reading the various articles on the site, I see that there is much confusion over just what a Messianic Believer is supposed to do to live righteously.

I do not question that this is a Observant site of Messianic Belief, but I am aware that there are as many beliefs and customs in regards to obedience as there are Messianics.  Those that were born and raised in a Jewish environment, whether in non-Messianic Judaism or in Messianic Judaism retain all of their Jewish customs, and seek to keep all 613 of the Talmudically ascertained commandments.

Those that were born Gentile, and want to know what pleases God, and Yehshua seem less than convinced about what to do.

Yeshua's teachings were given to practicing Jews, not to the Gentile world as so many in the mainstream Christian churches believe.  All of what Yeshua was talking about was in regard to practicing Jews.

Then, when the Apostles went out to the world after Yeshua's death, they went to the Jews first, and only when the Jews would not listen did they seek followers among the Greeks.

Acts 15:19-29 (CJB)
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!


The Jerusalem Church had a starting point for Gentiles to enter into the New Covenant...continue in the Noahide Laws (though that was not mentioned...yet almost all civilizations keep them.), and also refrain from eating things sacrificed to Idols, or eating strangled things, eating blood, and refraining from promiscuity.

So, a Gentile has the Noahide Laws, and the Jerusalem Council's admonitions to encourage fellowship.

The seven laws listed by the Tosefta (dated to 220 CE) and the Babylonian Talmud (dated to 300 CE) are:

1. The prohibition of idolatry.
2. The prohibition of murder.
3. The prohibition of theft.
4. The prohibition of sexual immorality.
5. The prohibition of blasphemy.
6. The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7. The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.


The remaining laws stated by the Jerusalem council would be:

8. abstain from things polluted by idols,
9. abstain from fornication,
10. abstain from what is strangled and
11. abstain from blood.


So, we have basic civil law covered, and the beginning of kosher laws.

If you add on loving God with all your mind, heart, soul and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, to keep company with the Messianic Jews we need only add keeping the Sabbath on Saturday, and keeping the feasts.

Or you could say, we are to keep the Ten Commandments, the Kosher Laws, and the Feasts, and love our Neighbors as ourselves, right?

You certainly put it better than I could!

Yes, if any of the Christian Churches would adopt the full keeping of the Ten Commandments, observe what is clean to eat, honor the feasts, and love one another they would have covered most of what is necessary in my view...and what often horrifies MainC Churches.

There are no rules that Gentiles must do, other than what was listed in the Noahide Laws, and the decree of the Jerusalem Church, after all, because until you convert to Messianic Judaism you are automatically a proselyte to Messianic Judaism, even if you have no intention of taking on Judaic Cultural laws and customs that relate to Israel and the Temple. If you are sitting under the teaching of a Messianic Synagogue, and mix regularly with Messianics, you are bound to add on a bit more here and there, just because of your contact, and hearing the discussed weekly, along with the rest of the Scriptures. MainC Christianity dropped teaching the at about 200 A.D., so few people understand it.

There are a few other laws that Alon mentioned in another thread...wearing a prayer shawl as you worship in Synagogue if you are a man (women presumably would wear something more like a scarf, although the last Orthodox rulings on Tzit-tzit was they are not forbidden to women on any four cornered garment, but they do object to women wearing a man's prayer shawl); laying on Tefillen, and writing the commandments on your gates and doors (or Mezuzahs).

It is the keeping of even these laws that MainC Christians are troubled by, because of the Grace in Yehoshua. They have never been taught anything about obedience in many MainC Churches...it doesn't even come up.

Were you just looking for clarity on this?

[alon]

Jun 27, 2014 22:58:33 GMT -8 Questor said:

Were you just looking for clarity on this?

Clarity is easy. If one is truly saved, he/she should have a desire to please God. How do we do this?


Jhn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."


How do we stay in His grace, His love and Mercy?


Exo 20:6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments"


Jhn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."


We are to keep His commandments. These are found in , therefore we are to become Observant.


Not overly complicated, unless you don't want to become TO and then have convolute, pollute or dilute the Word to support your position. This is what mainC does with scripture. They have some of the most convoluted aarguments ... Just this last week I was arguing with a couple about whether it was OK for the church to change the day of worship to Sunday. They were stumbling all over themselves until I stoped them and told them plainly what their church's position on the change was! They were observably pleased with this, because they thought they had me (I know, go figure ... ) Then I laid out the truth for them. No longer happy, they still clung to Sunday worship, saying it didn't matter as long as you had a day. It do git discouragin' at tahms.

Dan C

[alex]

Jun 28, 2014 6:29:45 GMT -8 alon said:

Jun 27, 2014 22:58:33 GMT -8 Questor said:

Were you just looking for clarity on this?

Clarity is easy. If one is truly saved, he/she should have a desire to please God. How do we do this?


Jhn 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments."


How do we stay in His grace, His love and Mercy?


Exo 20:6 "And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments"


Jhn 15:10 "If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love."


We are to keep His commandments. These are found in , therefore we are to become Observant.


Not overly complicated, unless you don't want to become TO and then have convolute, pollute or dilute the Word to support your position. This is what mainC does with scripture. They have some of the most convoluted aarguments ... Just this last week I was arguing with a couple about whether it was OK for the church to change the day of worship to Sunday. They were stumbling all over themselves until I stoped them and told them plainly what their church's position on the change was! They were observably pleased with this, because they thought they had me (I know, go figure ... ) Then I laid out the truth for them. No longer happy, they still clung to Sunday worship, saying it didn't matter as long as you had a day. It do git discouragin' at tahms.

Dan C

In asking about the laws in the we are to keep, I simply just wanted to state the beginning point for all Believers in Yeshua, and then have the commandments listed that are what is in full for Christians to please God who do not want to assimilate into Judaism.

I think the Jews are special...but I also think that the Jews are terribly burdened by their customs and traditions, following what is man's laws, and not God's laws, just as Christianity has made up laws of their own.  Jews have a special relationship with God...not just Messianic ones, and they do carry a heavy yoke in my view.

And very few Christians want to become Jewish, myself included, which is why I think that obedience is not taught.  I don't think there is any clear statement in the Scriptures as to what we must do as Believers in Yeshua.  If there is, I sure would like to find it. 

 

I, on the other hand, want to do what Yehshua asked for, obedience, but since He was speaking to Jews and not to Gentiles, it's hard to know what Yeshua meant when it came to the Gentiles.  We don't live in Israel, there is no Temple, and there are very few Messianic Synagogues to attend...none around me, anyway.

If we are to be proselytes to the Jews, where are the directions given? 

We don't have to be Proselytes to love Yeshua, or obey Him...do we?  Particularly since Yeshua never spoke of this?  And there are a lot of things Yehsua did speak to in relation to obedience that do not specify any particular commandment in the .

[alon]

Jun 28, 2014 16:35:28 GMT -8 alex said:

In asking about the laws in the we are to keep, I simply just wanted to state the beginning point for all Believers in Yeshua, and then have the commandments listed that are what is in full for Christians to please God who do not want to assimilate into Judaism.

I think the Jews are special...but I also think that the Jews are terribly burdened by their customs and traditions, following what is man's laws, and not God's laws, just as Christianity has made up laws of their own.  Jews have a special relationship with God...not just Messianic ones, and they do carry a heavy yoke in my view.

And very few Christians want to become Jewish, myself included, which is why I think that obedience is not taught.  I don't think there is any clear statement in the Scriptures as to what we must do as Believers in Yeshua.  If there is, I sure would like to find it. 

 

I, on the other hand, want to do what Yehshua asked for, obedience, but since He was speaking to Jews and not to Gentiles, it's hard to know what Yeshua meant when it came to the Gentiles.  We don't live in Israel, there is no Temple, and there are very few Messianic Synagogues to attend...none around me, anyway.

If we are to be proselytes to the Jews, where are the directions given? 

We don't have to be Proselytes to love Yeshua, or obey Him...do we?  Particularly since Yeshua never spoke of this?  And there are a lot of things Yehsua did speak to in relation to obedience that do not specify any particular commandment in the .

It sounds as though you are in almost exactly the place I was in not too long ago. It's a hard place to be in, but there is hope without worrying yourself to death.

First and foremost, your salvation is real. There are those who would tell you different based on everything from your not being Observant to the issue of your not saying the names of God correctly (as they see it). Unfortunately there are a lot of idiots who have glommed onto the Mesianic movement. Like it wasn't tough enough, right? But salvation is still a free gift of God to those who repent and trust on Him. That you are here asking about pleasing God is ample evidence you are saved. Know that while God expects us to do what we can, He doesn't expect us to do everything at once. We all start with the basics, then work on everything else as we can. I am not full TO yet myself, but getting there.

The obvious place to start is Acts 15:20, abstain from:

1. things polluted by idols- anything that gives recognition to an idol
2. from fornication- sexual as well as mixing pagan practices into your worship
3. from what is strangled- not properly bled out
4. from blood- do not eat anything made from blood

You probably already have that one figured out, though.

Next you can check out the Noahide Laws, listed by the Tosefta and the Babylonian Talmud dated to 300 CE:
1.The prohibition of Idolatry.
2.The prohibition of Murder.
3.The prohibition of Theft.
4.The prohibition of Sexual immorality.
5.The prohibition of Blasphemy.
6.The prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive.
7.The requirement of maintaining courts to provide legal recourse.

They are not from scripture, but they do reflect scriptural principles. So they make a good place to ease into observance- just don't listen to those who will tell you to stop there. Next I would advise another reading of the Ten Commandments (Ex 20). But before you do, try and clear your mind of whatever dogma you've been taught. In fact, assume anything you were taught about them was wrong. Look for what is really said there. If you were taught right, then the truth will survive. But if you were taught, for example that Sunday is the correct day of worship, yet your meditations and studies bring you to the obvious conclusion that God not only gave you a day, the Sabbath (Saturday)- but that day was defined by God as sundown to sundown; well, you now have a problem. Friday sundown to Saturday sundown is the scripturally defined day of the Lord. Seems to me you might want to research what all God said about this day; what are you supposed to do on this day; what spiritual or temporal consequences go along with its' observance ... ? Any how, the Ten Commandments (abbreviated):

1.I am ADONAI your God, … You are to have no other gods before me
2.You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline - you are not to bow down to them or serve them
3.You are not to misuse the name of ADONAI your God
4.Observe the day of Shabbat, to set it apart as holy
5.Honor your father and mother
6.Do not murder
7.Do not commit adultery
8.Do not steal
9.Do not give false evidence against your neighbor
10.Do not covet your neighbor's wife; do not covet your neighbor's house, his field, his male or female slave, his ox, his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor


Also check out Ex. 34. This is the only list the Bible itself calls the "Ten Commandments". It's an interesting list, and every bit as much useful for instruction as the popular list. It has the advantage of never being taught with all the dogma and obfuscation since Christianity would just as soon not point your attention to this passage.

The Ten Commandments (Ex 34):
1.Be careful not to make a covenant with the people living in the land where you are going, ... Rather, you are to demolish their altars, smash their standing-stones and cut down their sacred poles
2.Do not cast metal gods for yourselves
3.Keep the festival of matzah … for seven days during the month of Aviv
4.Everything that is first from the womb is mine.
5.Six days you will work, but on the seventh day you are to rest
6.Observe the festival of Shavu'ot with the first-gathered produce of the wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year.
7.Three times a year all your men are to appear before the Lord, ADONAI, the God of Isra'el.
8.You are not to offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread, and the sacrifice of the feast of Pesach is not to be left until morning
9.You are to bring the best firstfruits of your land into the house of ADONAI your God
10.You are not to boil a kid in its mother’s milk

Pay particular attention to number 8. According to the notes in my Study TNK wine or grape juice is a legitimate biblical substitute for blood. At the Last Supper, Yeshua even lifted a glass of wine and said "This is my blood." At communion services everywhere Christians read this passage just before they drink their juice. So we have the blood of communion, which is the blood of Yeshua's sacrifice- then every church I've ever been to has broke up a bunch of crackers for the second part! Crackers contain leaven- it's listed in the ingredients on the box. I have pointed this out to pastors, but they still hold to their practices, even though they could buy matzah at about the same price and be ok (except matzah is Jewish, and there's that latent anti-Semetism thing). My point is, the more you study, the more you will become convicted of things like this. "You are not to offer the blood of my sacrifice with leavened bread." I no longer take communion with Christians. You'll have to make up your own mind on this, and other issues.


Biblical Feast Days
1. Passover pesach Nissan 14-15
2. Unleavened Bread chag hamotzi Nissan 15-22
3. Firstfruits yom habikkurim Nissan 16-17
4. Pentecost shavu’ot Sivan 6-7
5. Trumpets yom teru’ah Tishri 1
6. Atonement yom kippur Tishri 10
7. Tabernacles sukkot Tishri 15-22


 
Christians insist that "Jesus abolished the law." What Yeshua attempted to "do away with" was not our Father's divine instructions, but some of the rabbinical, man-made "stuff". Paul verified this when he said: "Do we then nullify the Law through faith? May it never be! On the contrary, we establish the Law." (Romans 3:31). You will find YHVH’s original commandments throughout in places like Genesis 26:2-5; Exodus 15:25-27, 16, 20:6; Leviticus 22, 26, 27; Numbers 15 and 36; and Deuteronomy 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 10, 11, 13, 26, 27, 28, 30, 31.


One key to learning the rest over time is found in Acts 15:21 "For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day." The par'sha each week is done so that the entire is taught every week over a three year period. Judaism leaves out just a few passages, however some messianic communities teach those. So find a good site (like this one) which has streaming Shabbat services. Or you can get some sites with shorter services or some that will send you the weekly par'sha in writing. PM me if you need help. Just be careful- the net is a sewage pit with far more false, wild, crazy, heretical ... sewage than it has good information. That's one of the things that makes it so hard to do this on your own. I did it for a while like that, so I know. But hang in there, it's worth it!

Dan C

[Questor]

Jun 27, 2014 8:08:35 GMT -8 alon said:

alex, we all started in Messianism with a lot of baggage from traditional Christian "wisdom"/"ignorance". I see many of these misconceptions in your post here, and am reminded of where I started. To start, the title is an oxymoron- you simply cannot be a "Messianic Gentile". The term translated Gentile is typically "goy" or the plural "goyim". This can mean nation or nations, but also can mean pagan as the nations other than the Hebrews were all pagan. You cannot be a "Christian" (mainC) and not be goy, and you cannot truly be a Messianic and be a pagan at the same time.

Jun 26, 2014 21:45:10 GMT -8 alex said:

From reading the various articles on the site, I see that there is much confusion ...

True. We are all learning. I even have an "I was wrong" thread.

Another problem is that no one, even Yeshua Himself, ever did or could keep all 613 mitzvoth. He was not a Levite, and over half the mitzvoth pertain strictly to the Levites, their conduct and duties. So to have even attempted to keep one of these would have been a sin, and thus would have disqualified Him as Messiah.

Those that were born Gentile, and want to know what pleases God, and Yehshua seem less than convinced about what to do.

If you were born a Gentile, and you want to become Messianic, then you are entering as a proselyte into that sect of Judaism. You will be disowned by Christianity, even as you come to disown them. And you will never be accepted as Jewish by the Jews.

[/b][/font] So it can be a lonely road and a hard struggle, but worth it in my experience.

Yeshua's teachings were given to practicing Jews, not to the Gentile world as so many in the mainstream Christian churches believe.

And that statement puts you MILES ahead of where most of us started. Well said!

Then, when the Apostles went out to the world after Yeshua's death, they went to the Jews first, and only when the Jews would not listen did they seek followers among the Greeks.

Again, this is mainstream teaching, and is in error. The First cen. church was almost entirely Jewish, and most mainC will even agree to this. Yet they persist in saying the Jews did not accept Yeshua. Which is it? Both cannot be true. Obviously many, many Jews accepted their Messiah, but sadly not all.

Another misconception here is that Jews did not evangelize. They don't today; and in fact will discourage you if you wish to become Jewish. But they did then. But then as now, salvation came to us (Gentiles)through the Jews. In the account of the Exodus, for example, many who went with the Hebrews were not Hebrew. Some became proselytes, while others did not. But all were given one law; Exo 12:49 "One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you." Which brings us to the next misconception:

Acts 15:19-29 (CJB)
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter: From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia: Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom!

Those four observances were a starting point to be accepted into fellowship. The key to understanding his passage is the immediately following statement "For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him." "Moshe" is here a euphemism for "." This means that as they attend synagogue and hear taught, they will learn to become Jewish.

The Jerusalem Church had a starting point for Gentiles to enter into the New Covenant...continue in the Noahide Laws (though that was not mentioned...yet almost all civilizations keep them.), and also refrain from eating things sacrificed to Idols, or eating strangled things, eating blood, and refraining from promiscuity.

Anyone who tells you that you can keep anything less than Observance and be Messianic is still speaking from their teaching in mainC; or possibly is a Jewish person who is jealouse of his/her customs. As someone who lives with a Jew (relax, I married her) I can tell you what it means to make them jealouse. Every once in a while she still screams at me "You are NOT Jewish!" What can I say to that- I am a recovering Baptist, and you just can't get more pagan than THAT! Just as with being a Christian, anyone can fly the flag/ hang their banner/ put up a cross. But not everyone who does so is truly Christian. So it is with Messianism. Many call themselves Messianic, yet through ignorance or too often demonic inspiration teach things that are wrong. Others of us are/were Baptists ... _*sigh*

And ignorance is treatable- it does not have to be a permanent condition! Again, we are all still learning here. to say, that includes a whole lot of unlearning as well!!!

Dan C[/quote]

Sorry, I do not want to disown Christians...only Unbelieving Jews and Lawless Believers.

[alon]

Questor, when I say "disown" them, I don't mean give them the cold shoulder or refuse to talk to them. Obviously, since I still attend he AoG church with my wife I haven't done that. However I do disown many of their teachings: where their errors would put me in conflict with scripture I don't participate; and I will not join their church.

Examples of errors: not eating pork at their functions (which bothers some of them beyond reason); not taking communion when they use leavened products (Ex 34:25); not going to their alter when they have Christmas Trees present (actually most anything to do with Christmas or Easter is out).

As you disown more of their errors, more of hem will come against you more virulently. Count on it. And that is without me/you making an issue, just quietly saying "No" to the drug of sin and error.

Dan C

[Questor]

Jul 20, 2014 20:57:29 GMT -8 alon said:

Questor, when I say "disown" them, I don't mean give them the cold shoulder or refuse to talk to them. Obviously, since I still attend he AoG church with my wife I haven't done that. However I do disown many of their teachings: where their errors would put me in conflict with scripture I don't participate; and I will not join their church.

Examples of errors: not eating pork at their functions (which bothers some of them beyond reason); not taking communion when they use leavened products (Ex 34:25); not going to their alter when they have Christmas Trees present (actually most anything to do with Christmas or Easter is out).

As you disown more of their errors, more of hem will come against you more virulently. Count on it. And that is without me/you making an issue, just quietly saying "No" to the drug of sin and error.

Dan C

Thank you for being more specific about disowning what Christian's may preach and do that is in error, and not disowning them as Believers, for there will be those of the Christian Believers who will be in the Kingdom merely because of what Yehoshua did, and not what they do. I once explained that to my Dad, and he remarked, "I will probably be the streetsweeper on the outskirts of the city, since I have no Bible knowledge". I still hope to see him there, and my mother also, a lapsed Catholic with only a vague notion of G-d.  The remainder of my family have already set themselves apart from me, yet I have hope for my sister-in-law, and a few of her grandchildren not to be fully in outer darkness merely because of the simplicity of their belief and trust in Yehoshua, for if Belief were not the opening step of Salvation, what is? 

Jew or Gentile, not believing in Yehoshua, and not trusting Him for your redemption will always be the most important issue to YHVH, and to Yehoshua. How well you walk in obedience to Scripture is a matter that only Yehoshua can decide, and thus what blessing you will receive now, as well as in the Kingdom. The more we trust G-d, the easier it should be to turn our entire lives over to Him, and walk in imitation of Yehoshua haMashiach, the perfected Jew.

Alas, there are those who neither believe nor obey...those people we are to stand aside from, even as we ask Abba to bless them with understanding and a calling to His side, because they walk in lawlessness, or unbelief, or both. Even these, however, one should reluctantly stand aside from, making them well aware that you would prefer fellowship if only they would choose that fellowship by choosing Yehoshua as ruler over their lives.

[alon]

Jul 21, 2014 17:17:56 GMT -8 Questor said:

Thank you for being more specific about disowning what Christian's may preach and do that is in error, and not disowning them as Believers, for there will be those of the Christian Believers who will be in the Kingdom merely because of what Yehoshua did, and not what they do. I once explained that to my Dad, and he remarked, "I will probably be the streetsweeper on the outskirts of the city, since I have no Bible knowledge". I still hope to see him there, and my mother also, a lapsed Catholic with only a vague notion of G-d.  The remainder of my family have already set themselves apart from me, yet I have hope for my sister-in-law, and a few of her grandchildren not to be fully in outer darkness merely because of the simplicity of their belief and trust in Yehoshua, for if Belief were not the opening step of Salvation, what is? 

Jew or Gentile, not believing in Yehoshua, and not trusting Him for your redemption will always be the most important issue to YHVH, and to Yehoshua. How well you walk in obedience to Scripture is a matter that only Yehoshua can decide, and thus what blessing you will receive now, as well as in the Kingdom. The more we trust G-d, the easier it should be to turn our entire lives over to Him, and walk in imitation of Yehoshua haMashiach, the perfected Jew.

Alas, there are those who neither believe nor obey...those people we are to stand aside from, even as we ask Abba to bless them with understanding and a calling to His side, because they walk in lawlessness, or unbelief, or both. Even these, however, one should reluctantly stand aside from, making them well aware that you would prefer fellowship if only they would choose that fellowship by choosing Yehoshua as ruler over their lives.

And again, I don't take your "standing aside" from unbelievers to literally mean shun them. We live in a fallen world, but we are to be a light to that world. But they as well tend to get a bit tetchy when we don't participate in their coarse jesting or other activities where we ARE to be set apart from the world. It's not always easy, and I don't always get it right. However they do know I am "different". Well, I've always been that ... . But you get the idea.

Dan C

[alex]

Jun 27, 2014 8:08:35 GMT -8 alon said:

alex, we all started in Messianism with a lot of baggage from traditional Christian "wisdom"/"ignorance". I see many of these misconceptions in your post here, and am reminded of where I started. To start, the title is an oxymoron- you simply cannot be a "Messianic Gentile". The term translated Gentile is typically "goy" or the plural "goyim". This can mean nation or nations, but also can mean pagan as the nations other than the Hebrews were all pagan. You cannot be a "Christian" (mainC) and not be goy, and you cannot truly be a Messianic and be a pagan at the same time.

Alon, you seem to be saying that the only Messianics are Jewish, or proselytes to Messianic Judaism if they were born to a non-Jewish family.

That would mean that all those who believe in Yeshua that are not Jews by Birth are also proselytes to Messianic Judaism...and that is not the case.

You also seem to be saying that if a Believer is not Jewish or a proselyte to Messianic Judaism that Believer is a pagan, and thus an idolator, like those who keep Easter and Christmas within the Christian Church, and avoid the Jewish Feasts in contradiction to the Commandments in the Bible.

Certainly God's Grace in Yeshua covers a lot of sin, but once told that these practices are against God, and celebrations created by man, one to honor Ishtar, and the other created out of thin air to celebrate the Winter Solstice, those Believers could opt to stop such practices as necessary to keep faith with Yeshua.

Those Believers not keeping the basic commandments as written by God through Moses should certainly start to, and still add on all those inner qualities that I never see discussed here that Yeshua valued so much, as well as the giftings of the Holy Spirit.

I am not a Jew, nor a proselyte to Judaism, Messianic or Rabinnic, but I believe in Yeshua as my Savior, and try to do and be as is described in the New Testament, because it describes how one lives as a obedient son to God, even unto death. Trusting Yeshua for Salvation also means being faithful to His desires, and His continual plea was for obedience to God, and not just in the outward manner of showing yourself to be obedient.

There was not a Jew in all of Judah that did not know what Yeshua meant when He held up loving God, and loving your neighbor as the essence of the Law, and the commandments that all of the identifies, and depends on. Obedience wasn't an option - it was the law of the land, as well as the duty of every Jew within the Covenant. Keeping the commandments was not unusual, at least in an exterior way - Yeshua was also concerned about keeping the commandments in an inward way. He was urging the Jews in His own land to become more observant of the commandments in their hearts and minds, not to be more outwardly observant. He scorned and ridiculed Jews who tithed on every bit of herb or spice, yet avoided the heart of the law to provide for others as under the Levitical rules, and in sheer mercy to those in need.

Still, I believe it to be true, though, that few Believers in God really keep the commandments that are applicable to them anyway. Some Jews do, Messianic or Rabbinic, but in the world even obeying what could be known as the outer is seen more and more as not necessary, whereas the demons teaching in a lot of Christian churches have headed people away from their strict observances of the past. As for keeping the Inner , as Yeshua wanted, there are many Christians that work very hard on that, and manage to keep a few of the outer commandments along the way because it doesn't occur to them to break them. Most Christians are deficient in Sabbath keeping because no one is standing up to tell them that Sunday is fine for a Church Meeting, and then a game of football, but that Saturday is for complete avoidance of the ordinary duties of the remainder of the week to seek rest and honor God. Only lately has there been a push to get Christians interested in God's appointed times, since they are prophetic, and describe the entire past and future of the Messiah.

Many Jews continuously hold themselves up to the measure of the Law - their whole existence often seems one seamless routine of ritual obedience learned from birth as a constant striving to get the Laws followed perfectly. They say this is the best way to worship God. I don't entirely agree, but I admire that ritual obedience as the Jewish culture and traditions, and even as a part of religiousity of Rabbinical Judaism. I don't want to acquire the daily routine or the ritual obedience to the views of Rabbi's long dead on just what they thought the Old Testament said, and how it was to be carried out. It seems pretty plain in the Bible what you do or don't do, unless you are a Levite or a Cohanim or a King with a Temple nearby.

Keeping the commandments was always the foundation - Yeshua wanted us to reach deeper and more inwardly as well, and He asked the Father for another Counselor to us - to teach us all things. Yet the Holy Spirit seems to be regarded as a bit like a fairy tale, rather than the soft but urgent pull on a Believer's mind and heart continuously given to those that pay attention and want to hear from the Holy Spirit.

Keeping the commandments in a Jewish manner or ritualistic way does not seem to be laid down in the Bible at all for those non-Jews who trust in Yeshua, any more than adoption into Judaism was necessary to be a God-Fearer and to fellowship as equals with other Believers of Jewish origin, yet you seem to believe that only by abandoning all that is of your own heritage to become a Proselyte to Messianic Judaism is any real Belief demonstrated.

I do not see a lot of Christians becoming dutiful proselytes to Messianic Judaism, but I think they could definitely handle the commandments if they were explained in the same simplicity they are written of in the Bible, along with how they are to copy how Yeshua lived. Keep telling them they are pagans and idolators, and you won't be listened to by very many Christians

[alon]

Jul 21, 2014 21:09:30 GMT -8 alex said:

Alon, you seem to be saying that the only Messianics are Jewish, ...

Uh, no; did you mean only Jews are Messianics? Either way, that is not what I am saying. We should be working towards some form of Jewish observance. But Messianism is so fractured, and so new that really qualified Rabbis are few and far between and they do not agree on everything. Most don't have access to any Rabbi (though I will say you won't go wrong to follow the teachings of Rabbi Reuel here- and I do not presume to speak for him- but catch his d'rash each week on live streaming here if you can). So how this observance is expressed will vary greatly. We just all do what we can- but we all should be doing what we can!

... or proselytes to Messianic Judaism if they were born to a non-Jewish family.

In some way, yes. But again, we do what we can, and it will look differently for all of us.

That would mean that all those who believe in Yeshua that are not Jews by Birth are also proselytes to Messianic Judaism...and that is not the case.

If you mean all believers then no, Christians for example may believe, but they are hardly proselytes to MJ. As to those in MJ, then yes you/we are; but I'm using a very broad definition of the term here. A proselyte is simply an adherent to a new belief system. I'd put most here in that category- though I do realize from my poll most don't think of themselves as such, and some aren't sure. Personally I tend to not do anything by half measures. It took a little time to make sure where I was going, but once convicted and convinced, I'm all in!

You also seem to be saying that if a Believer is not Jewish or a proselyte to Messianic Judaism that Believer is a pagan, and thus an idolator, like those who keep Easter and Christmas within the Christian Church, and avoid the Jewish Feasts in contradiction to the Commandments in the Bible.

Unless you started as a TO Jew, then yes. If you were in mainC you were an idolater and probably didn't realize it. And even mainC will tell you it doesn't have to be a statue and you don't have to pray to it for it to be an idol. Toys (Harley-Davidson!), lifestyle (early 70's HD), and before that I was Southern Baptist; and you bet I was a pagan right up to my acceptance of TO Messianism! From the degeneracy of motorcycle culture in the 70's to the strictness of being a Baptist, it was all paganism.

Certainly God's Grace in Yeshua covers a lot of sin, but once told that these practices are against God, and celebrations created by man, one to honor Ishtar, and the other created out of thin air to celebrate the Winter Solstice, those Believers could opt to stop such practices as necessary to keep faith with Yeshua.

Absolutely agree, but how many do? Most get angry when told because you just removed their excuse before God. (They never had one, but if you really want ot make 'em mad, tell them that!)

Those Believers not keeping the basic commandments as written by God through Moses should certainly start to, and still add on all those inner qualities that I never see discussed here that Yeshua valued so much, as well as the giftings of the Holy Spirit.

Many Christians display the fruits of the Spirit, and yes I do believe (and certainly hope) they are saved. I don't judge anyone's salvation- I just make the judgement call whether I should talk to them about TO MJ. That is my responsibility, the rest is between them and God.

I am not a Jew, nor a proselyte to Judaism, Messianic or Rabinnic, but I believe in Yeshua as my Savior, and try to do and be as is described in the New Testament, because it describes how one lives as a obedient son to God, even unto death. Trusting Yeshua for Salvation also means being faithful to His desires, and His continual plea was for obedience to God, and not just in the outward manner of showing yourself to be obedient.

Well, you've entered into a new belief system, so by the definition of the term, you are a proselyte to something. But I understand not wanting to call yourself such. Really, until you've determined for sure where you want to go with this and how you want to get there, it may be best not to label yourself a proselyte. And if you never label yourself a proselyte that's fine too- it's all how you think of yourself from the perspective you are taking. Just please don't get angry if from time to time I apply the term as it is defined in the English language, as there has to be some basis for communication, and tha't be your handy Funk and Wagnall's (now there's a reference that if you understand it means you're a child of the 60's or a Goldie Hawn fan ).

There was not a Jew in all of Judah that did not know what Yeshua meant when He held up loving God, and loving your neighbor as the essence of the Law, and the commandments that all of the identifies, and depends on. Obedience wasn't an option - it was the law of the land, as well as the duty of every Jew within the Covenant. Keeping the commandments was not unusual, at least in an exterior way - Yeshua was also concerned about keeping the commandments in an inward way. He was urging the Jews in His own land to become more observant of the commandments in their hearts and minds, not to be more outwardly observant. He scorned and ridiculed Jews who tithed on every bit of herb or spice, yet avoided the heart of the law to provide for others as under the Levitical rules, and in sheer mercy to those in need.

Still, I believe it to be true, though, that few Believers in God really keep the commandments that are applicable to them anyway. Some Jews do, Messianic or Rabbinic, but in the world even obeying what could be known as the outer is seen more and more as not necessary, whereas the demons teaching in a lot of Christian churches have headed people away from their strict observances of the past. As for keeping the Inner , as Yeshua wanted, there are many Christians that work very hard on that, and manage to keep a few of the outer commandments along the way because it doesn't occur to them to break them. Most Christians are deficient in Sabbath keeping because no one is standing up to tell them that Sunday is fine for a Church Meeting, and then a game of football, but that Saturday is for complete avoidance of the ordinary duties of the remainder of the week to seek rest and honor God. Only lately has there been a push to get Christians interested in God's appointed times, since they are prophetic, and describe the entire past and future of the Messiah.

Agree. When I was growing up it was the end of the Great Revival Era. There were revivals and tent meetings everywhere, all the time. That era ended in the late 70's through the 80's for the most part. I think now God is calling us out, calling us to worship Him as He said He wanted us to! Evangelizing the lost is still important. But as far as the "rededications" we used to see in the revivals- that has been replaced by the call to come out of Babylon and return (figuratively for most of us) to Yerushalayim!

Many Jews continuously hold themselves up to the measure of the Law - their whole existence often seems one seamless routine of ritual obedience learned from birth as a constant striving to get the Laws followed perfectly. They say this is the best way to worship God. I don't entirely agree, but I admire that ritual obedience as the Jewish culture and traditions, and even as a part of religiousity of Rabbinical Judaism. I don't want to acquire the daily routine or the ritual obedience to the views of Rabbi's long dead on just what they thought the Old Testament said, and how it was to be carried out. It seems pretty plain in the Bible what you do or don't do, unless you are a Levite or a Cohanim or a King with a Temple nearby.

I admire them too, and in a way envy them. I have no way of knowing much of what I'm learning as a first hand experience. However even the Rabbinical Judaic writings I have says if you are just doing it as ritual you are missing the mark. Circumcission of the heart is always more important than the physical.

Keeping the commandments was always the foundation - Yeshua wanted us to reach deeper and more inwardly as well, and He asked the Father for another Counselor to us - to teach us all things. Yet the Holy Spirit seems to be regarded as a bit like a fairy tale, rather than the soft but urgent pull on a Believer's mind and heart continuously given to those that pay attention and want to hear from the Holy Spirit.

Yes, keeping the commandments is how God wants us to worship Him; it sets us apart; and in hindsight it'd of kept me out of a whole lot of trouble if I'd not been so stupid and hard headed and just obeyed!

Keeping the commandments in a Jewish manner or ritualistic way does not seem to be laid down in the Bible at all for those non-Jews who trust in Yeshua, any more than adoption into Judaism was necessary to be a God-Fearer and to fellowship as equals with other Believers of Jewish origin, yet you seem to believe that only by abandoning all that is of your own heritage to become a Proselyte to Messianic Judaism is any real Belief demonstrated.

Here I would disagree. While you can never change who you are, speaking of how you were raised and your life experiences. However you can work on changing your understanding, your methods of thought and certainly your actions. This is what was meant in Acts 15:21 when Rav Sha'ul talked about every synagogue having Moshe () explained every week (Shabbat). New proselytes would learn and correct their ways over time as they sat under the instruction of their Rabbi, who sat in Moses Seat and taught the Word!

I do not see a lot of Christians becoming dutiful proselytes to Messianic Judaism, but I think they could definitely handle the commandments if they were explained in the same simplicity they are written of in the Bible, along with how they are to copy how Yeshua lived. Keep telling them they are pagans and idolators, and you won't be listened to by very many Christians

If it were preached openly by the pastors and priests of the land, yes eventually they would. But we both know that ain't happenin'. And as it is, they don't want to know- don't even want to hear about it for the most part. Best we can do is pray the Ruach will lead those who will listen to us, and that we'll have the good sense to know how to handle it when they ask!

Dan C

[alon]

Melachim Alef 18:21(OJB) And Eliyahu came unto kol haAm (all the people), and said, Ad Mosai (how long) ye be polekhim (limping ones, dancing ones) between two se’ipim (opinions)? If Hashem be HaElohim, follow after him; but if HaBa’al, then follow after him. And HaAm answered him not a word.

This pretty much describes most of the people filling pews in mainC. They haven't even decided for sure they want to follow mainC, let alone any religion that wants them to actually DO something! Not all of them are like this, for sure, but "most" is an understatement anyhow. This is a stark, and dark contrast to what I see in both of the Messianic Synagogues I've visited. There I see commitment and purpose.

Yehoshua 24:15(OJB) And if it seem rah unto you to serve Hashem, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the elohim which Avoteichem served that were on the other side of the River, or the elohei HaEmori, in whose land ye dwell; but as for me and my bais, we will serve Hashem.

Joshua 24:15 (CJB) If it seems bad to you to serve ADONAI, then choose today whom you are going to serve! Will it be the gods your ancestors served beyond the River? or the gods of the Emori, in whose land you are living? As for me and my household, we will serve ADONAI!"

Do we want to serve the God preached in mainC? Technically He is the same, but there are some pretty significant differences- for starters, I've never heard anyone in synagogue speak (much less preach!) about "the God of the OT vs. the God of the NT" like they were either different Gods or God changed His mind! So which system of theology do we wish to serve under? Do we want purpose in our faith? Or do we want to sit like zombies as false doctrine is poured into our heads (and I've heard that preached exactly as I said it more than once, and gotten into hot water for calling them on it!)? Choose- God gives us that prerogative. But He also holds us accountable for our choice and actions. As for me, I will serve the God of the Bible- One Book, One Author, One God! And one purpose for my life.

Dan C

[alon]

Jun 28, 2014 16:35:28 GMT -8 alex said:

In asking about the laws in the we are to keep, I simply just wanted to state the beginning point for all Believers in Yeshua, and then have the commandments listed that are what is in full for Christians to please God who do not want to assimilate into Judaism.

alex, there is another class of believers in MJ which doesn't get much press. That is the God Fearers.

Acts 13:50, Acts 17:4, Acts 17:17, Acts 18:7

These are Gentiles who believe in God the way the Natsarim of the 1st cen. did, and as Messianic Judaism does today. They did not take on the mantle of full observance. They kept the Noahide laws and the laws of the Jerusalem council as I explained above. They also worshiped in Synagogue. They could not however read from or the other scrolls, could not participate in a Passover Sedur, and could not speak with authority. Circumcission was the biggest issue back then.

These people are saved, and are accepted into fellowship. They could still be considered proselytes, as they are entering a new faith, and most do go on to full Observance.

Hope this helps.

Dan C