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Post by alon on May 16, 2014 7:15:08 GMT -8
A-a- a-a- a-a- gh ... !!!  My sister and her kids and grandkids are coming here the last weekend this month for a riding competition. I almost never see them, and I've never seen them ride in a competition. But it will mean purchasing tickets and meals on shabbath. So where do we draw the line- God said no, and I believe Him. But He also said the Sabbath was made for man, which leads me to believe there are exceptions. My ox isn't in the ditch, but my family will be in the ring. One of the things that drew me to MJ is its' emphasis on family right after God. Honestly, this isn't about wheter I'll go- it's more like how guilty I should feel afterwards. Gotta go. Dan C |
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Post by Questor on May 17, 2014 23:44:30 GMT -8
A-a- a-a- a-a- gh ... !!! My sister and her kids and grandkids are coming here the last weekend this month for a riding competition. I almost never see them, and I've never seen them ride in a competition. But it will mean purchasing tickets and meals on shabbath. So where do we draw the line- God said no, and I believe Him. But He also said the Sabbath was made for man, which leads me to believe there are exceptions. My ox isn't in the ditch, but my family will be in the ring. One of the things that drew me to MJ is its' emphasis on family right after God. Honestly, this isn't about wheter I'll go- it's more like how guilty I should feel afterwards. Gotta go. Dan C
I broke the Sabbath today...buying something over the internet to make another person happier in the middle of his misery, and then allowing him to ride my lawnmower around the yard so he could feel as if his life was holding together somewhere...allowing him to work on my land on the Sabbath.
I should have merely sent him home to where his problem lay to be dealt with...but we both forgot it was the Sabbath for a while. He knows I keep Shabbat to the best of my ability, but his week has been so screwed up he probably didn't recall what day it was, while I, being caught up in sympathy to his emotional need, didn't even think to prevent him. I flat out forgot it was Saturday myself as soon as he arrived...his need to be here at my home, and have what he considers a normal day was imperative.
And so I resolved not to let that happen again. It is perfectly all right for me to counsel my friend on Shabbat...he had need. I should have been more aware of how the Adversary was getting inside my defenses by recalling that it was the Sabbath, and merely stopped my friend from requesting the parts he needed me to order (which I always do when asked as I have such a rotten short term memory) or doing what work he could do on my grounds so that he could feel as if he had managed to do something good. SIGH! I am not sure yet that I can be aware the way I need to be, so I have to ask the Ruach to also speak for me, and to make me aware. And I will have to put up a barrier around Shabbat to keep it from getting marred.
It is perfectly okay to see your family on the Sabbath...but refusing to go to their children's competition at a public arena sounds so churlish, particularly if it is a special event. If everyone kept the Sabbath it would be easier, but still not easy for our flesh. Your sister needs you to see and share her triumph...having a healthy and happy family doing really well, and in competition as well. I do not know how to refuse that kind of need, any more than you can go against your need to be with your family.
All you can do is tell your sister that you will not do it again...not on a Saturday...and then suffer the consequences. Handling this kind of problem gently and gracefully the first time is okay...and the second time...but eventually we have to make them see we are serious. They do not think we are serious...after all, "just this once, it can't hurt, because there is Grace!" And there is, sufficient to keep us from damnation, but Grace will only get us into the Kingdom. We want to hear, "His lord said to him, 'Well done, good and faithful servant; you were faithful over a few things, I will make you ruler over many things. Enter into the joy of your lord." Matthew 25:21 (NKJV)
Grace will not wipe away the sadness we see in Yehoshua's eyes, even as He forgives us. We do not want to offend our family and friends, but we want to displease Yehoshua even less. If they cannot understand that after several attempts, then yes, we need to offend them by digging in our feet. Or by digging in our feet a little more each time, if that is possible. I don't know which yet, and I have not been attempting to keep the Sabbath on Saturday for very long...perhaps a year? It is so much harder than people realize when no one around us is doing the same. For me to forget these things is normal...for you, probably not a memory problem but an alienation problem. My friend would not have been upset with me if I had reminded him it was Shabbat. I will even discuss it with him the next time I see him. You will need to tell your sister what you did, and why, and tell her that you will not do it again...you will not choose her company, and her children's company over G-d's company again...but you need to tell her in that way...so that she can see that it hurts you to not keep the Sabbath, because it hurts Yehoshua if you do not keep the Sabbath. Otherwise, it is all just a difference of opinion in her mind, and a minor one at that.
It is a matter of where and when and how you draw your lines in the sand...it is the attempt to refuse these things gently the first time or two. Family and friends want you to go along to get along...to fit what is happening in their life...and we have to turn the tables by making an emotional appeal to how we feel about pleasing G-d...not just that the action is against  . And even though we are also to keep the peace, and in your family doing this now, suddenly, might have caused a serious breach between you. I know your sister is most likely a Believer, if in the Baptist manner, and she will know when you explain to her that it is a matter to you of doing her wishes, or G-d's wishes, and whose wishes you have to follow...not for salvation, but to come closer to Abba.
It may not be within her relationship with G-d just now to be Observant...only she can tell, and you must tell her that...it is not for us to judge anyone's walk with Yehoshua unless you see no fruit in her life, and then you must warn her that having no fruit shows she is walking away from G-d. But if the Ruach is not drawing her to keep the it is not your business...my friends feel they have enough on their plate already to withstand the pressures they feel that just trying to avoid all things worldly brings on them. I know I am being called to do this because I can make the attempt to do it...difficult as it is to make the day totally separate from everyone I know. I do it badly, but now and then I see I am doing it a bit less badly, and I am sure that Abba is pleased with my progress. He knows me in and out, far better than I can ever know myself.
If we do not tell them what we expect from our disobedience...sadness now, and sorrow later...they will keep pushing. They may think us nuts, and weird to be so concerned, but that is what we feel. They think it is a light matter that we can just cast aside, "Because there is Grace". Grace doesn't stop us from feeling like a failure at honoring our G-d. But if we do not tell them this, we cannot expect them to understand.
Learning to keep the Sabbath when everyone around you does not is not an easy task, and although it sounds simple enough it is not a simple task to bar everyone from your life even if you live alone, as I do...while in your case, it is your family who need you to enter into a family moment, and forget they are trampling on your soul. Or they do not know they are doing so because you have not told them?
We do not need to alienate our friends and family to be obedient...we merely have to know what we are doing, and refuse to go along with what they want if we are able to. And we are to ask the Ruach for help in doing so. He knows we cannot do it on our own, in our own strength. As for causing alienation within a family when you believe in the same G-d and have the same Saviour because you do not want to do things in their manner...you must tell them that you will not tell them what to do in their worship, and they must allow you the same, or there will be a breach of their making. But again, you have to tell them, not in anger, but in tears, how very hard it is to do what you have been called to do, knowing that they are missing a lot of relationship with Yehoshua by not keeping . They obviously are not being called to come closer to G-d yet, possibly because of whatever G-d is dealing with them about is getting in the way of taking that next step higher in their walk with Yehoshua. Accusing them of refusing to go higher is not your job.
It's very hard to tell someone who is surprising you with an event or problem that they are getting in the way of your devotions to your G-d. We will have to make it impossible for them to break through to us during Shabbat. I will need to turn off my phone, and post a notice on my gate.... if that is what I need to do to keep my Sabbath safe. I hope it will not be that difficult...but every week, I am now experiencing a lot of people on the Sabbath, so I may have to have a sermon ready to go on the DVR with the sound turned up, just in case people keep forgetting my Sabbath rest, go past the notice on the gate, and are pounding on the door! You may have to find a room to hide in...if you are to keep the peace with your wife, be in harmony with your family, and stay obedient to G-d all at the same time.
We can only resolve to refuse the next time we are surprised by someone else's plans, and remember that we were not brought up in the , nor are we surrounded by Observant people, and that even Messianic Jews, however surrounded by their culture, do not perform Mitzvot perfectly. I am sure they get a lot closer than we can, walking within the fences that keep them from egregious breaches of , but they do not observe everything in perfectly, every moment of every day. We are all to do our best, ask G-d for strength, and toss the problem to Him. Sadness, even mourning over a persistent fault are allowed for a while...but no guilt. I want to feel the sadness, so that it will make me more tender of the day next week, but I will not feel guilty for that is self-condemnation. We are not supposed to judge ourselves in that way, any more than we are to judge others. Be  about having committed a fault, sure, but don't beat yourself up over it. Abba does not require that of you…that is the Adversary knocking at your door!
We are not attempting to be Observant to avoid guilt as much as we are trying to be obedient. We are not breaking any covenant we have made with G-d…we have the Renewed Covenant through Yehoshua’s performance of the Mosaic Covenant in full. Yet we cannot perform the Renewed Covenant except through Yehoshua, and G-d knows when we will succeed in performing all the Mitzvot…the moment we die, or are changed, and made incorruptible. Those Messianic Jews that were born into the Mosaic Covenant have the Renewed Covenant as soon as they receive Yehoshua, but they are not enabled yet to keep the in perfection either. And unless you keep it in perfection every moment of every day, you have broken it all. Grace does cover us against our sheer inability to do what God is setting us to strive for…and we are to strive for obedience, and keep striving for obedience, recognize our failures, and then begin again. We do need to recognize that even as we attempt to succeed we will fail…and it is the constantly renewed attempt to obey that is our work. We are running a race, not crossing a finish line.
We want instead to show Abba that we love Him, and consequently obey Him because we want to, and then ask for His help to make that obedience sure through the Ruach, just as He promised to do. But until the is engraved on our heart, we are not able to keep it in this body...everything pulls against it. In my case, my ignorance, my old habits, and my isolation from other Sabbath keepers pulls against , as your Believing family that sees no need for pulls against . We must be enabled, not just by conviction, but by Grace, and the power of G-d when our bodies are made incorruptible.
We cannot make ourselves obedient...G-d must change us, and the Mitzvot must be written in us, so that is as much a part of us as our existence is.
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Post by alon on May 18, 2014 3:56:54 GMT -8
Actually, it is my decision to go. The only thing I don't like about it is that I'll have to purchase tickets and food on Shabbath. Actually, I may fast and solve that one, except I know at some point they'll want to go eat and that is the best time to spend with family together. We'll see. It's all a struggle to find balance in something which is pretty new to me. Is the higher mitzvah to strictly not exchange money on Shabbath, or to try and restore some of the familial relationships which, frankly, my family is not known for. And I've been one of the worst about not keeping those ties. Not the only reason, but like I said it's one of the major things that got me looking into MJ is the emphasis on relationships- particularly family relations. So if the only way to spend the time with them is to purchase a ticket, and maybe a meal, well ... not looking for grace as an excuse, but I do think Hashem will understand. Just as you said, we are obedient so as not to disappoint our God. I just hope it is pleasing to Him to see families come together and not displeasing that I'm not following the letter of His instructions. As to allowing your friend, who was hurting at THAT TIME to make himself fell useful, Yeshua healed on Shabbath. I don't even see any conflict there. You did a mitzvah which would have lost the effect if it had waited. Whole different circumstance there. And forgetting, ... we are getting older my friend, and neither of us is in great health. On top of that we are trying to learn a new system of worship, changing lifelong habits at a time of life when almost everyone else is getting set in theirs! Genuinely forgetting happens. I think Hashem knows the difference in that and defiance. I just stop what I'm doing when that occurs, ask forgiveness and help in not forgetting in the future. It must be true God loves a repentant heart, because He lets me forget all too often, therefore requiring me to repent over and over again! Getting old is so wonderful ...  ... NOT! Dan (not wonderful) C |
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Post by Questor on May 18, 2014 14:13:44 GMT -8
Actually, it is my decision to go. The only thing I don't like about it is that I'll have to purchase tickets and food on Shabbath. Actually, I may fast and solve that one, except I know at some point they'll want to go eat and that is the best time to spend with family together. We'll see. It's all a struggle to find balance in something which is pretty new to me. Is the higher mitzvah to strictly not exchange money on Shabbath, or to try and restore some of the familial relationships which, frankly, my family is not known for. And I've been one of the worst about not keeping those ties. Not the only reason, but like I said it's one of the major things that got me looking into MJ is the emphasis on relationships- particularly family relations. So if the only way to spend the time with them is to purchase a ticket, and maybe a meal, well ... not looking for grace as an excuse, but I do think Hashem will understand. Just as you said, we are obedient so as not to disappoint our God. I just hope it is pleasing to Him to see families come together and not displeasing that I'm not following the letter of His instructions. As to allowing your friend, who was hurting at THAT TIME to make himself fell useful, Yeshua healed on Shabbath. I don't even see any conflict there. You did a mitzvah which would have lost the effect if it had waited. Whole different circumstance there. And forgetting, ... we are getting older my friend, and neither of us is in great health. On top of that we are trying to learn a new system of worship, changing lifelong habits at a time of life when almost everyone else is getting set in theirs! Genuinely forgetting happens. I think Hashem knows the difference in that and defiance. I just stop what I'm doing when that occurs, ask forgiveness and help in not forgetting in the future. It must be true God loves a repentant heart, because He lets me forget all too often, therefore requiring me to repent over and over again! Getting old is so wonderful ... ... NOT! Dan (not wonderful) C
I need the pointers, and new ideas would be great! |
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Post by alon on May 18, 2014 17:38:51 GMT -8
Does all your family...all the branches of your family know that you have become Messianic, and are learning to be Observant? And are they aware of your Sabbath keeping on Saturdays? What have you told them about you? And what was their reaction?
I need the pointers, and new ideas would be great! Most, if not all of my close family know. Reactions vary. My sister is in her own world so I doubt the full meaning has sunk in to her, nor would it matter if it has. She won't agree with me on being MJ, however she won't condemn it either. We're both old enough to choose what we want to do in life, but if I want to be a part of hers, her kids and grandkids, this is where they'll be. She does have MJ friends, but some are light while others read a different than I did. My Mom's side of the family knows and accepts my decision, although I don't think they really know what it means. But they are in New Mexico and Colorado. My Dad's side of the family probably has heard, and if so I'm already condemned as a heretic; not that it matters since we seldom talk anyhow. My own kids know of course, and they so far are OK with it. My wife has by far the worst reaction to my decision to become TO MJ. Pointers? 1 Cor 7:8!!! Dan  C |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 4:36:18 GMT -8
Hi Alon,
Could you not have gotten the tickets before the Sabbath? Or had someone else to get them for you?
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 4:49:06 GMT -8
Questor,
Could you not have waited until Sunday to order the part for your friend? And explained to him that you do not order anything on the Sabbath? Being upfront and standing firm on the beliefs of the Sabbath would be first and foremost. But than who am I to say when I work on the Sabbath. My job requires me to work on the Sabbath. However that is completely a whole discussion there.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on May 19, 2014 9:57:55 GMT -8
Hi Alon, Could you not have gotten the tickets before the Sabbath? Or had someone else to get them for you? Moriah Ruth That seems to me to be a more legalistic technicality.  I'd still be either hiring someone else to work for me, or asking them to. I don't really look for such loopholes as they would mean I am under the law (not a good place to be) instead of in a covenant relationship.  It's either right or wrong, and I do it on that basis- then worry I made the right decision, LOL!  Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 10:10:10 GMT -8
Lol.. who me? Legalistic? Ouch.. but than again as I stated to Questor, who am I to say anything with regards to the Sabbath when I work on the Sabbath... Wahhhhhh!!! Sigh...
Moriah Ruth
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Miykhael
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To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on May 19, 2014 10:37:44 GMT -8
ב’’ה
Shalom and Blessing in our Mashiach, Yeshua..
Here are some verses I have been meditating on.
We read in (יְשַׁעְיָהוּ) Y'sha' Yahu Isaiah 58:13-14 “If you hold back your foot on Shabbat from pursuing your own interests on my holy day; if you call Shabbat a delight, HaShem’s holy day, worth honoring; then honor it by not doing your usual things or pursuing your interests or speaking about them. If you do, you will find delight in HaShem— I will make you ride on the heights of the land and feed you with the heritage of your ancestor Ya‘akov, for the mouth of HaShem has spoken.”
Let's please consider these verses too in Mattityahu, Matthew 10:34-42 We read, “Don’t suppose that I have come to bring peace to the Land. It is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword! For I have come to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law, so that a man’s enemies will be the members of his own household. Whoever loves his father or mother more than he loves me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than he loves me is not worthy of me. And anyone who does not take up his execution-stake and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his own life will lose it, but the person who loses his life for my sake will find it. “Whoever receives you is receiving me, and whoever receives me is receiving the One who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive the reward a prophet gets, and anyone who receives a tzaddik because he is a tzaddik will receive the reward a tzaddik gets. Indeed, if someone gives just a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my talmid—yes!—I tell you, he will certainly not lose his reward!”
Remember this story we read in Uri, Luke 9:57-62 As they were traveling on the road, a man said to him, “I will follow you wherever you go.” Yeshua answered him, “The foxes have holes, and the birds flying about have nests, but the Son of Man has no home of his own.” To another he said, “Follow me!” but the man replied, “Sir, first let me go away and bury my father.” Yeshua said, “Let the dead bury their own dead; you, go and proclaim the Kingdom of G-d!” Yet another said, “I will follow you, sir, but first let me say good-by to the people at home.” To him Yeshua said, “No one who puts his hand to the plow and keeps looking back is fit to serve in the Kingdom of G-d.”
Look what Hebrews Ivri, Hebrews 4:9-13 So there remains a Shabbat-keeping for G-d’s people. For the one who has entered G-d’s rest has also rested from his own works, as G-d did from his. Therefore, let us do our best to enter that rest; so that no one will fall short because of the same kind of disobedience. See, the Word of G-d is alive! It is at work and is sharper than any double-edged sword—it cuts right through to where soul meets spirit and joints meet marrow, and it is quick to judge the inner reflections and attitudes of the heart. Before G-d, nothing created is hidden, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.
One of the signs that your are in Covenant Relationship with HaShem and His Messiah Yeshua is to keep the Shabbat & to observe Shabbat. (שְׁמוֹת) Sh’mot Exodus 31:13–18..
What is this Sign that is spoken here? I believe it's the sign is that the Blood of the Lamb (Yeshua) has been smear it on the two sides and top of of our hearts.
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Post by Deleted on May 19, 2014 15:24:30 GMT -8
Miykhael,
Those are thought provoking verses indeed. And you are right. Now I am going to go think in my corner.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on May 19, 2014 22:05:19 GMT -8
Miykhael, Those are thought provoking verses indeed. And you are right. Now I am going to go think in my corner. Moriah Ruth Me too ... Dan  C |
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Post by alon on May 20, 2014 11:38:16 GMT -8
In an article from the Jewish Outreach Institute, I found this: "The celebration of Judaism in the home reinforces strong bonds of mutual love and affection between couples, among members of families, and between close friends." I truly wish my family was inclined to observe Shabbat. However, they do not; which leaves me with the problem of being seen to shun them "for religious purposes" or of bending a little to meet them where they are. I do wish to witness to them, which would mean not alienating them.
In Gen 18:22b-23, Abraham confronted Adonai about destroying Sodom, where his nephew Lot lived, "but Avraham remained standing before ADONAI. Avraham approached and said, "Will you actually sweep away the righteous with the wicked?" And he continued to bargain with Adonai for the city. Sodom of course was destroyed, and Lot's wife as well when she looked back. But Lot and his daughters were saved.
This wasn't the first time Abraham had rescued Lot. In Gen 14 he rescued Lot from Amraphel, king of Shinar. It was after this that Abraham was blessed by Melchizedek. So Abraham, separated from his country and family and set apart for God's purposes, still looked back to his family obligations and rescued Lot from his own foolishness as well as from God's judgment. However, as Lot's wife shows us, there is a time when if we disobey we will be judged. She disobeyed a very clear mandate not to look back, yet she so yearned for the life she was loosing she couldn't resist one last lingering gaze on her home. Her home was in the world, and her heart wasn't with God.
I'd like to think I am Abraham in this story, but more likely I'm somewhere between Lot and his wife. I do miss family and my old life. However, like Abraham I have moved on and would like to bring at least some of them with me. So I'll see what arrangements can be made to meet without violating Shabbat.
I will say this however: by far most of the instructions I find for Shabbat observance are rabbinic interpretations of scripture. I take these seriously, as they have studied these things now for 3 1/2 millennia. They are not however the final word, as they do tend to get a bit carried away, each trying to outdo the other by building a bigger fence. Traveling (both distances and means), use of computer to get live stream services or to research the Word, turning appliances on and off- these do not necessarily violate Shabbat as far as I can tell. I know- parsing out the word "fire" like Bill parsing out the word "is" ... . Working in ministries, doing mitzvoth either as a witness or as assistance which could not wait, or even just small acts of kindness and consideration, and yes being with family at times when they are not inclined to keep Shabbat. It is not that cut and dried, at least to me not yet, as to where the line is drawn.
So Miykhael, I do appreciate your very well thought out response, and I agree with it completely. However when I get to the nuts and bolts application things get a little less clear. The ideal would be me and my family living in a Messianic community where it were possible to keep Shabbat even as the rabbis say. But that will never be the case in this life. And the proscription against divorce could be argued to be the higher mitzvah when it comes to that level of observance. So I do what I can, and it does cause strife in my home.
But yes, taking what you said into consideration, I probably should strive for a solution which has the very least effect on Sabbath observance.
Thanks.
Dan
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Post by Questor on May 21, 2014 17:59:05 GMT -8
Questor, Could you not have waited until Sunday to order the part for your friend? And explained to him that you do not order anything on the Sabbath? Being upfront and standing firm on the beliefs of the Sabbath would be first and foremost. But than who am I to say when I work on the Sabbath. My job requires me to work on the Sabbath. However that is completely a whole discussion there. Moriah Ruth
Technically, that too is breaking the Sabbath, to refrain from commerce, but still do financial planning! But Abba is aware that I have a touchy short term memory since my accident almost 19 years ago. But this breach of rest, and concentrating on Abba was for my believing MainC friend, who badly needed his life to be normal for him for the day...bad medical problems taking care of his wife, and almost at the freaking out stage. In his distress, I simply forgot it was the Sabbath until I had broken it, late in the afternoon on Saturday.
Often when something is very upsetting to others, or they have lost their sense of having a normal reality...like a week of 24 hour care of a seizure patient, they need a simple routine to rebalance.
He came over on Sunday, and apologized for breaking into my day of rest...I didn't even have to bring it up. But I also told him that he had need, and that over weighted the Sabbath at that time. Which it did. I apologized to Abba, and asked for help to be extra cautious about breaking the Sabbath, and focusing only on Him, but we are also to come to the aid of others, and if my ideas on what to help people on are a little weird, please remember that I am feeling my way through this with the help of the Ruach. |
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Post by Deleted on May 22, 2014 3:26:59 GMT -8
Bongo,
My work requires for me to work on the Sabbath. And the only job present for the moment. I have a family to feed. Enough said.
Moriah Ruth
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- there are 70 faces to 
about having committed a fault, sure, but don't beat yourself up over it. Abba does not require that of you…that is the Adversary knocking at your door!
... NOT!
C
C
