cgpb
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Post by cgpb on Mar 29, 2014 7:08:45 GMT -8
The following can be shared with Jews who do not believe in the concept of Heaven and Hell.
It can also be viewed at the following link:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=-1t6tTHB01U
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is?
The facts are as follows:
The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it.
On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day.
Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like
Where do all these people go?
Is there life after death?
Is there judgment?
What Jews believe about the afterlife:
Jewish beliefs on the afterlife vary. Many Jews believe that because the Hebrew Bible is silent on the afterlife, that living in the here and now and obeying G-d's commandments is all there is.
Other Jews believe in some kind of reincarnation, others believe that all will go "to the next world" except those that are ultimately evil and did not repent of their evil ways, and yet others don’t believe in any of these.
Though the Hebrew bible isn’t so explicit about the afterlife, however that doesn’t make it completely silent either and there are more than enough passages in the Hebrew Bible as well as from other Jewish sources that can help one to reach a reasonable conclusion about the realities that exist beyond the grave.
Why do many Jews reject the reality of Heaven and Hell?
• Firstly because as already mentioned, they feel that not much is said about it in the Hebrew Bible
• Secondly because many who do believe in heaven and hell convey unbiblical misconceptions of these places that are not in agreement with Hebrew Bible theology , thus not convincing Jews.
• Thirdly Many Jews are not religious and therefore feel that such places don’t concern them.
If one accepts the Hebrew bible as God inspired, then one must also accept all scriptures pertaining to life beyond the grave for what they are and not reject these realities.
Now The OT speaks of the following things:
• It speaks of people who even though were still alive, were translated or raptured to another place – thus we conclude that the reality or existence of another dimension or place outside of what we know as earth must exist, otherwise where did these people go?
• It shows that those in the intermediate heaven can see what is happening on earth, and can even prophesy about future events on earth.
• It speaks of separation between the righteous and the unrighteous at death.
• It speaks of resurrection of the dead – both for the righteous and the unrighteous.
• It speaks of a state of suffering for the unrepentant
• It speaks of judgment
• It speaks of a book where only those whose names are written in it shall be saved.
• It speaks of an eternal future kingdom where the Messiah will reign with God’s people.
• It speaks of the creation of new heavens and a New earth
After the OT period, the only person in Jewish history to ever speak about the afterlife in a way that was in total agreement to the OT scriptures regarding these things was Jesus Christ or Yeshua. We shall now parallel the 2 books on these issues.
Note black letters are scriptures from OT. Red letters are their NT parallels.
a. People being translated to another place whilst still living
Both Enoch and Elijah are examples of men who whilst still living, were taken by God to some other place in their physical bodies and did not experience physical death. Thus their bodies were not left behind to bury.
In the Greek Septuagint, In Enoch's case it uses the word (μετέθηκεν) –meaning i.e translated or transferred from one place to another
In Elijah's case it says (αναλήμφθηναι) – he was ascended into heaven
"Enoch walked faithfully with God; then he was no more, because God took him away."(Genesis 5:24)
“Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. And Elisha saw it, and he cried out, “My father, my father, the chariot of Israel and its horsemen!” So he saw him no more..” (2Kings 2:11-12)
After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever (1 Thessalonians 4:17)
Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. “(John 11:25-26)
Note that the only people God took away and will take away in this way are righteous and not wicked.
b. Those in the intermediate heaven can see what is happening on earth.
1 Samuel 28:16-19 shows us King Saul wrongly appealing to the witch of Endor to call upon Samuel to come back from the afterlife. The medium was terrified when God actually sent Samuel. It is interesting to see that Samuel remembered what Saul had done before Samuel died, and he was aware of what had happened since he died.
This shows that it is likely that they are aware of what happens on earth. Not only that, Samuel also rightly predicts the death of Saul and his sons and tells him “…and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." The Lord will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines.”
Likewise It seems evident in Revelation 6:9-11 that the martyrs who are in the int. heaven can see what is happening on earth for they say
“How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”
c. Separation between the righteous and unrighteous at death and resurrection of both the righteous and unrighteous
Daniel 12:2-3 speaks of a separation between the righteous and the wicked as well as their resurrection.He says:
“Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to  and everlasting contempt.
The 2 key words here are
i. “awake” which is clearly referring to a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
ii. Everlasting meaning forever.
And In Daniel 12:13, we see God promising Daniel that he will rise (be resurrected) and that he will receive an allotted inheritance .
“Then they (the wicked) will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.” (Matthew 25:46)
Isaiah 26:19 also speaks of resurrection, He says:
"But your dead will live, LORD;
their bodies will rise—
let those who dwell in the dust
wake up and shout for joy—
your dew is like the dew of the morning;
the earth will give birth to her dead."
Even the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the dead.
For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.” John 6:40
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. (Revelation 20:4-5)
d. State of torment for the unrepentant
“And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” (Isaiah 66:24)
It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where “‘the worms that eat them do not die, and the fire is not quenched.’ Mark 9:47-48
e. Judgment before God
“God will bring into judgment both the righteous and the wicked, for there will be a time for every activity, a time to judge every deed.” (Ecclesiastes 3:17)
“But I tell you that everyone will have to give account on the day of judgment for every empty word they have spoken. Matthew 12:36
f. Only those whose names are written in the book will be saved
"The LORD will never be willing to forgive them; his wrath and zeal will burn against them. All the curses written in this book will fall on them, and the LORD will blot out their names from under heaven." (Deuteronomy. 29:20)
If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.
(Revelation 20:15)
g. Eternal future kingdom where the Messiah will reign with God’s people.
Then the sovereignty, power and greatness of all the kingdoms under heaven will be handed over to the holy people of the Most High. His kingdom will be an everlasting kingdom, and all rulers will worship and obey him.’ (Daniel 7:27)
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever. (Isaiah 9:7)
They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years….. (Revelation. 20:4)
And they will reign for ever and ever. (Revelation 22:5)
I. Creation of new heavens and a new earth
“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind. (Isaiah 65:17)
Then I saw “a new heaven and a new earth,”for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. (Rev. 21:1)
God’s plan involves an actual kingdom over which He and His people will reign forever and it is important to note that these promises will all happen here on earth and the Messiah will rule from David’s throne.
The New earth that God will create can also be called heaven because God will dwell with his people on the New earth
Other Jewish sources
There are other Jewish works that speak of the reality of these things that are also in agreement with the fore mentioned.
Both Josephus and the book of Jasher (which is mentioned in the book of Joshua and 2nd Samuel ) speak of the translation of Enoch and Elijah.
Josephus says:
“Now at this time it was that Elijah disappeared from among men, and no-one knows of his death to this very day; but he left behind him his disciple Elisha, as we have formely declared. And indeed, as to Elijah, and as to Enoch, who was before the Deluge, it is written in the sacred books that they disappeared; but so that nobody knew that they died.
(Antiquities book 9. chapter 2. 2.(28) )
……….and it was upon the seventh day that Enoch ascended into heaven in a whirlwind, with horses and chariots of fire.
And on the eighth day all the kings that had been with Enoch sent to bring back the number of men that were with Enoch, in that place from which he ascended into heaven. (Book of Jasher chapter 3, verses 36-37)
The book of Enoch: Filled with visions, dreams and revelations of heaven and hell, angels and devils, fallen angels, the appearance of a Messiah, Resurrection, a Final Judgment, and a Heavenly Kingdom on Earth.
Here is a contradiction in the thinking of many Jews who claim to believe the scriptures.
We see that God made promises to the ancient Israelites regarding a new Earth where the Messiah will rule an eternal future kingdom of righteousness.
However the fulfillment of these prophecies requires exactly what scripture elsewhere promises – a resurrection of God’s people and God’s earth, because people cannot live and rule in a disembodied state on an immaterial world.
So even though the Hebrew Bible speaks of these things, many Jews who claim to adhere to their Bible in fact , reject the reality of these things
Judging by what people hear at funerals, you would think that just about everyone is going to heaven,
By default heaven is not our default destination. The Bible clearly tells us that peace or reconciliation with God is only brought about through atonement which must happen through the shedding of blood. E.g. Leviticus 16:15-43. No atonement means no peace or reconciliation with God. The Bible doesn’t teach there is any other way through which man can be forgiven of sin and be reconciled back to God. Not through prayer, not through traditions, not through good intentions, not through Observance of  or whatever.
Now it has been about 2.000 years since the 2nd Temple was destroyed and together with this destruction, inevitably came the abolishment of the sacrificial system of animals for the forgiveness of sins. Therefore, the Jew must ask himself, what atonement system has God initiated (that can be proven from the Bible and not traditions ) to allow for the forgiveness of sins of Jews that were living from 70.A.D until today. Does it make sense that a loving God who is faithful to His Covenant people Israel to allow generation after generation of Jews living in a span of thousands of years to be without an atonement system through which they could achieve forgiveness of sins and have the assurance of eternity in his Kingdom?
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Post by maranguape on Sept 6, 2018 16:11:48 GMT -8
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is? The facts are as follows: The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it. On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day. Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like, Where do all these people go? Is there life after death? Is there judgment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, this world is not all there is. There is also the world to come. But what is the world to come? The name is Sheol, aka the grave and also called in Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS) the eternal home of the dead. That's the only thing eternal about man, about all men, Jews and Gentiles. Hence King David said in II Samuel 12:23 that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave aka Sheol aka the world to come. Based on this reality, that's where all peoples who have passed away have gone, to the world to come, the eternal home of the dead. Since there is no life after death, it is only obvious that afterlife judgment makes absolutely nonsense. After all HaShem is a God of the living, not of dead. Why then do I obey ? Because I am Jewish and not because I expect any reward in the afterlife. |
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Post by alon on Sept 6, 2018 21:26:43 GMT -8
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is? The facts are as follows: The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it. On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day. Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like, Where do all these people go? Is there life after death? Is there judgment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, this world is not all there is. There is also the world to come. But what is the world to come? The name is Sheol, aka the grave and also called in Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS) the eternal home of the dead. That's the only thing eternal about man, about all men, Jews and Gentiles. Hence King David said in II Samuel 12:23 that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave aka Sheol aka the world to come. Based on this reality, that's where all peoples who have passed away have gone, to the world to come, the eternal home of the dead. Since there is no life after death, it is only obvious that afterlife judgment makes absolutely nonsense. After all HaShem is a God of the living, not of dead. Why then do I obey ? Because I am Jewish and not because I expect any reward in the afterlife.
Clearly the verse you referenced is about Melech Dovid mourning the physical death of his son, and his statement that his son would not return must be viewed in this context. Nothing here is referencing the question of resurrection. Again (as we've talked about in other threads), we do see clear references to both an afterlife and a judgement on the TNK; a prime example being: Daniel 12:2 (ESV) And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to and everlasting contempt.
As for HaShem being a God of the living, not the dead- He is God of all things. And if He wishes to bring dry bones back to life, He can do it! Then we can say with the shaliach: 1 Corinthians 15:55 (ESV) "O death, where is your victory? O death, where is your sting?"
Only, we'll be saying it in a better place and with a new (renewed) body ...  Dan C Another thing to consider is that the Hebrew language used in the TNK hints strongly at a resurrection: אֲפָפ֤וּנִי׀ חֶבְלֵי־מָ֗וֶת וּמְצָרֵ֣י שְׁא֣וֹל מְצָא֑וּנִי צָרָ֖ה וְיָג֣וֹן אֶמְצָֽא
Psalm 116:3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT) Compassed me have cords of death, And straits of Sheol have found me, Distress and sorrow I find.The term חֶבְלֵי־מָ֗וֶת chevle mavet specifically means "umbilical chords." This paints a picture: the pains of birth are reflected in the agonies of death. But more than this, it is a clear implication that from death will come new life- the resurrection. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 6, 2018 23:13:07 GMT -8
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is? The facts are as follows: The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it. On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day. Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like, Where do all these people go? Is there life after death? Is there judgment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, this world is not all there is. There is also the world to come. But what is the world to come? The name is Sheol, aka the grave and also called in Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS) the eternal home of the dead. That's the only thing eternal about man, about all men, Jews and Gentiles. Hence King David said in II Samuel 12:23 that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave aka Sheol aka the world to come. Based on this reality, that's where all peoples who have passed away have gone, to the world to come, the eternal home of the dead. Since there is no life after death, it is only obvious that afterlife judgment makes absolutely nonsense. After all HaShem is a God of the living, not of dead. Why then do I obey ? Because I am Jewish and not because I expect any reward in the afterlife. When Yeshua was transfigured, He appeared with Moses and Elijah.(Matthew 17) When Saul consulted a medium, she called up the spirit of Samuel. (1 Samuel 28) |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 7, 2018 16:01:11 GMT -8
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is? The facts are as follows: The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it. On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day. Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like, Where do all these people go? Is there life after death? Is there judgment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, this world is not all there is. There is also the world to come. But what is the world to come? The name is Sheol, aka the grave and also called in Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS) the eternal home of the dead. That's the only thing eternal about man, about all men, Jews and Gentiles. Hence King David said in II Samuel 12:23 that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave aka Sheol aka the world to come. Based on this reality, that's where all peoples who have passed away have gone, to the world to come, the eternal home of the dead. Since there is no life after death, it is only obvious that afterlife judgment makes absolutely nonsense. After all HaShem is a God of the living, not of dead. Why then do I obey ? Because I am Jewish and not because I expect any reward in the afterlife.
We all know that resurrection, by definition, implies a bodily return from the grave. King David was acting according to the TNK when he, because of the death of the boy had completely lost his hope that he would ever return from the grave. Therefore, there is no need for the term "resurrection" to be mentioned. Regarding Daniel 12:2, the reference is to the Jews in exile according to Ezekiel 37:11,12 about the prophecy of the "Dry Bones." According to Isaiah 53:8,9 when the Jews are taken into exile, it is as if they have been cut off from the Land of the Living and, graves are assigned to them among the nations. That's the case of Ezekiel 37:11,12). The Jews were qua dry bones in exile without any hope left to return to the Land of the Living aka the Land of Israel. (Ezekiel 37:11,12) Now, the case of Daniel 12:2, the reference is to the Jews in exile thus: Many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth aka exile will awake at the end of the exile, some to eternal life aka the Land of Israel and others to reproach, or everlasting abhorrence aka to remain not in exile but to live voluntarily as a slave in foreign land. Nothing to do with bodily resurrection. [/font] HaShem can do every thing He wishes but one, the thing you wish He did or should have done. It means, you must provide the proper quote for any claim that He did this or that. Yes about bringing dry bones back to life but that was not the case; you are simply wishing He did. The Dry Bones were not a literal prophecy but the Jews in Exile. (Ezekiel 37:11,12) The daily victory and bitter sting of death only shows that I Corinthians is wrong. Dan C Yes but, not every thing that sounds alike looks the same. Resurrection is a Christian term that can't be found anywhere in the whole of the TNK. Now, if from death a new life in resurrection is supposed to come, you have simply copied that doctrine from the NT. It is not Jewish and, for that matter, the NT should have picked up Paul or another Christian and not a Jew loyal to the TNK. [/quote] |
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Post by maranguape on Sept 7, 2018 16:29:19 GMT -8
The subject of the afterlife has shaped every civilization in human history. Could this be evidence that every culture on earth has a God-given, innate sense of the eternal – that this world is not all there is? The facts are as follows: The death rate for all humans is 100%. No –one avoids it. On average there are about 1.73 deaths per second. This translates to about 107 deaths per minute, 6,390 deaths per hour and 153,000 deaths per day. Based on this reality many would ask or think questions like, Where do all these people go? Is there life after death? Is there judgment? ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Indeed, this world is not all there is. There is also the world to come. But what is the world to come? The name is Sheol, aka the grave and also called in Psalm 49:12,20 (JPS) the eternal home of the dead. That's the only thing eternal about man, about all men, Jews and Gentiles. Hence King David said in II Samuel 12:23 that, once dead, no one will ever return from the grave aka Sheol aka the world to come. Based on this reality, that's where all peoples who have passed away have gone, to the world to come, the eternal home of the dead. Since there is no life after death, it is only obvious that afterlife judgment makes absolutely nonsense. After all HaShem is a God of the living, not of dead. Why then do I obey ? Because I am Jewish and not because I expect any reward in the afterlife. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but in the dreams of three of Jesus' disciples. Read the text more carefully and you will see that those three disciples were sleeping and their sleeping turned into a vision. Now, regarding Saul and the widow of Endor, Saul saw nothing. It was the widow who did all the job. She convinced Saul that she made the old man "come up of the grave" and herself did all the talking. Saul had only to believe that every thing was happening as he had asked the widow for. |
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Post by Elizabeth on Sept 7, 2018 18:09:44 GMT -8
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, but in the dreams of three of Jesus' disciples. Read the text more carefully and you will see that those three disciples were sleeping and their sleeping turned into a vision. Now, regarding Saul and the widow of Endor, Saul saw nothing. It was the widow who did all the job. She convinced Saul that she made the old man "come up of the grave" and herself did all the talking. Saul had only to believe that every thing was happening as he had asked the widow for. I see no indication of what you say in either text. I'm not going to type out the text here because people should look up Matthew 17 and 1 Samuel 28 and read it for clarification if they are interested or in doubt. Nothing indicates that Yeshua's transfiguration was a dream, and we are told that Saul spoke with Samuel in 1 Samuel 28 after the medium brought him up. Also, we are told the spirit prophesied to Him. Please show where you see what you are saying; that the transfiguration was a dream and the medium saw nothing for Saul. Further, G-d Himself commands against inquiring of the dead and familiar spirits in Deuteronomy 18:9-12. He gives it a legitimacy beyond what you describe as He doesn't say it's a farce or just a lie. |
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Post by alon on Sept 7, 2018 21:52:26 GMT -8
maranguape said: 2 Samuel 12:19b-23 (ESV) And David said to his servants, “Is the child dead?” They said, “He is dead.” Then David arose from the earth and washed and anointed himself and changed his clothes. And he went into the house of the Lord and worshiped. He then went to his own house. And when he asked, they set food before him, and he ate.Then his servants said to him, “What is this thing that you have done? You fasted and wept for the child while he was alive; but when the child died, you arose and ate food.” He said, “While the child was still alive, I fasted and wept, for I said, ‘Who knows whether the Lord will be gracious to me, that the child may live?’ But now he is dead. Why should I fast? Can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he will not return to me.”You read a lot into scripture that is not there. Yes, King David was mourning the physical death of his son. And yes it was because he would never see him again, but in his lifetime. This is not a trope against resurrection. It is a father mourning the loss of his son, as any father would. Prophecy in the Bible tends to be a bit vague. This is because it can apply to more than one event. So your interpretation here has some validity. However it clearly is built on an early Jewish belief in resurrection. I provided several. You can believe them or not, but they do seem clear to me and, I suspect to most who come here. But the fact is that your interpretations come not from early Jewish traditions, but those of Rabbinic Judaism which developed from the late 2nd to 4th centuries CE right alongside, and quite often as a reaction against Christianity; and just before that our (Messianism's) forefathers, them pesky minim (A.K.A. the Notsarim). Resurrection is an ENGLISH term describing exactly what you say it means, a physical return from the grave. And it is a Jewish concept from the TNK, not my wishes. And yes, it was carried over into the NT. As for Paul, he was a loyal Jew to the end. He said twice "I am" a Pharisee; not I used to be a Pharisee. This implies he never gave up his Jewishness nor his title of Rabbi. He also said: Acts 25:8 (ESV) Paul argued in his defense, “Neither against the law of the Jews, nor against the temple, nor against Caesar have I committed any offense.”
He was on trial here, and his accusers could not prove otherwise. Paul, an observant Jew to the end, kept . In fact, Paul said many times he was a P'rush, many ofour translations just don't show it. Every time he said he was " Romans 1:1 (KJV) Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,
Romans 1:1 (ESV) Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus, called to be an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God,
The ESV gets it right. The term being translated is: ἀφωρισμένος afwrismenos, aphOrismenos G873 - to mark off from others by boundaries, to limit, to separate; to appoint, set apart for some purpose (Outline of Biblical Usage)I only know 2 terms in Hebrew that mean "set apart," kadosh and parush. So in the original letter Paul was far more likely to be using the terms "parush" or "parushim" whenever you see the English term "separated." So many, many times he was probably proclaiming himself to be a Pharisee! Of course, the original Hebrew texts having been lost or destroyed, this "proof" is purely inductive reasoning- induction being the weakest form of logic. But it is something to consider: what did Paul mean in either Hebrew or Greek? If he means he was a set apart one, that is a Pharisee! Dan C note: Rav S pointed this about the term aphOrismenos just tonight at Erev Shabbat service
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and everlasting contempt. 
or whatever.
