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Post by Deleted on Mar 24, 2014 8:31:54 GMT -8
What I am going to ask and share is what is going through my mind for the moment. It is not to be critical or negative about MJ.
Christianity is considered a religion.
Judaism is considered a religion.
Would Messianic Judaism be considered to be a new religion?
My thoughts is this. God never purposed for any mankind to start a religion. No religion is ever mentioned in the bible, rather it be OT or NT. Even when God had chosen Israel as His chosen people, He never created a religion. However man did. Man through their own hearts and thoughts which created their own ideas of religion.
So God never created Christianity, Judaism or Messianic Judaism or any other religion, man did.
Again this is just my thoughts.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by alon on Mar 26, 2014 21:51:46 GMT -8
If Yeshua did not create a new religion, which He did not, then no, Messianism, which seeks to return to the way of the talmidim who walked with Him is not a new religion.
From the Free Dictionary Online:
So technically we are a religion, just not a new religion- there is nothing NEW in the NEW Testament! That includes true Messianic believers.
Now those who try to fly the MJ banner but who teach apostasies, lies and false doctrines would be new religions. But just because they fly the MJ banner does not make them MJ! We probably have to use a lot more discernment than any other religion, because we have to filter all the Christian dogma and the absolute insanity or often subtle lies that sneak in claiming to be MJ. The enemy attacks the truth much harder than others. But no, we and rav Ya'akov are of the same "religion" looking back to haMoshiach as Adam, Noach, Avraham, and melech Dovid had when they looked forward to a Redeemer.
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Mar 27, 2014 2:54:26 GMT -8
"So technically we are a religion, just not a new religion."
To me this sounds contradictory.
Again, my thoughts. God never created a religion, nor is it in His will and purpose to do so. Man is the one who puts names and labels on themselves. Just like in Judaism and Christianity which there are different beliefs, teachings and denominations, so there is with MJ.
We are all to be the body of believers in Yeshua, not make a name for ourselves. Or to make ourselves better than the other.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by jimmie on Mar 27, 2014 5:26:57 GMT -8
We are all to be the body of believers in Yeshua, not make a name for ourselves. Or to make ourselves better than the other. Moriah Ruth Nothing has change since the beginning. Cain wanted to make name for himself and Abel wanted lift the name of God. The rest of the book can be divided into those two camps. Read more: ancient-hebrew.proboards.com/thread/2004/shem-character?page=2#ixzz2xAhtld1A |
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Post by Yedidyah on Mar 27, 2014 8:21:42 GMT -8
Shalom!
So under the technical aspect of things yes Hashem did indeed create a religion. The issue is the word religion has been so twisted and turned into a four letter word in most circles. From this it gets only negative attention associated with it.
In the book of Acts it has an interesting point that goes along with this,
Acts 26:5
5 They have known me for a long time; and if they are willing, they can testify that I have followed the strictest party in our religion — that is, I have lived as a Parush.
So here we have different sects of a religion but all part of the same religion.
We don't see the different sects as part of their own religions but a branch from the same one, birthed from the same origins.
Being Messianic in the sense that Yeshua is the messiah compared to the entire Tanakh which speaks of Messiah is simply the completion of parts of scripture.
Messiah was deep in everyone's thoughts way before Yeshua and even among those who don't think he is the messiah.
The promise of Messiah is embedded deep within the identity of everything Jewish.
So what I think we have here is that there is nothing new, it is the same religion but with different sects.
Some believe there has been more completed of the promises than others but it was still birthed from the same promises that Hashem made to Avraham.
And we know these promises existed before the event took place it simply required people to open their ears and walk in obedience to what Hashem was commanding. Hope that explains it more.
Yedidyah
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Mar 27, 2014 8:37:45 GMT -8
I have observed it as a very common thing that people take a simple concept such as a simple descriptive word and twist it to suit their own purposes. They create slogans and teachings based on their twists. They create straw men and then they destroy them to show how smart they are. When I see this I recognize a lack of true wisdom and understanding.
God "created" a religion in that He told us the truth about the universe. We can choose to believe what He said or create our own belief system. Often the organized belief systems create their own "truth" adding to or subtracting from God's Word. I seek to practice a primitive religion that follows only what God says to the best of my understanding. Nothing more, nothing less. It is very important to understand that different people are at different points in their journey of growing into all truth. We seek to associate with those closest to our same level of understanding. Patience and recognition of the struggle allow us to work together.
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Post by alon on Mar 27, 2014 10:28:22 GMT -8
I must have been sleep deprived when I wrote that (my normal state)- even I don't understand what I said. Deleted!Dan  C |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Mar 28, 2014 9:33:37 GMT -8
I must have been sleep deprived when I wrote that (my normal state)- even I don't understand what I said. Sometimes that happens...  |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 28, 2014 18:18:22 GMT -8
Thank you Yedidyah,
As usual I was just ranting my thoughts.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Mar 30, 2014 19:51:46 GMT -8
Shalom! So under the technical aspect of things yes Hashem did indeed create a religion. The issue is the word religion has been so twisted and turned into a four letter word in most circles. From this it gets only negative attention associated with it. In the book of Acts it has an interesting point that goes along with this, Acts 26:55 They have known me for a long time; and if they are willing, they can testify that I have followed the strictest party in our religion — that is, I have lived as a Parush. So here we have different sects of a religion but all part of the same religion.
4 `The manner of my life then, indeed, from youth--which from the beginning was among my nation, in Jerusalem--know do all the Jews,
5 knowing me before from the first, (if they may be willing to testify,) that after the most exact sect of our worship, I lived a Pharisee;
We don't see the different sects as part of their own religions but a branch from the same one, birthed from the same origins.
A religion is an organized collection of beliefs, cultural systems, and world views that relate humanity to an order of existence.[note 1] Many religions have narratives, symbols, and sacred histories that are intended to explain the meaning of life and/or to explain the origin of life or the Universe. From their beliefs about the cosmos and human nature, people derive morality, ethics, religious laws or a preferred lifestyle. According to some estimates, there are roughly 4,200 religions in the world.[1]
Many religions may have organized behaviors, clergy, a definition of what constitutes adherence or membership, holy places, and scriptures. The practice of a religion may also include rituals, sermons, commemoration or veneration of a deity, gods or goddesses, sacrifices, festivals, feasts, trance, initiations, funerary services, matrimonial services, meditation, prayer, music, art, dance, public service or other aspects of human culture. Religions may also contain mythology.[2]
The word religion is sometimes used interchangeably with faith, belief system or sometimes set of duties;[3] however, in the words of Émile Durkheim, religion differs from private belief in that it is "something eminently social".[4] A global 2012 poll reports that 59% of the world's population is religious, and 36% are not religious, including 13% who are atheists, with a 9 percent decrease in religious belief from 2005.[5] On average, women are more religious than men.[6] Some people follow multiple religions or multiple religious principles at the same time, regardless of whether or not the religious principles they follow traditionally allow for syncretism.[7][8][9]
Being Messianic in the sense that Yeshua is the messiah compared to the entire Tanakh which speaks of Messiah is simply the completion of parts of scripture. Messiah was deep in everyone's thoughts way before Yeshua and even among those who don't think he is the messiah. The promise of Messiah is embedded deep within the identity of everything Jewish.
Jeremiah 31:31-34 (CJB)
31 “Here, the days are coming,” says Adonai, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra’el and with the house of Y’hudah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them,” says Adonai.
33 “For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra’el after those days,” says Adonai: “I will put my  within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, ‘Know Adonai’; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.”
So what I think we have here is that there is nothing new, it is the same religion but with different sects. Some believe there has been more completed of the promises than others but it was still birthed from the same promises that Hashem made to Avraham. And we know these promises existed before the event took place it simply required people to open their ears and walk in obedience to what Hashem was commanding. Hope that explains it more. Yedidyah [/quote] We have a better covenant now. We should rejoice in it. |
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 1, 2014 6:18:45 GMT -8
Questor my viewpoint still stands.
You built your idea by finding a translation that fit your doctrine and that is a huge doctrine mistake when coming to find the truth in anything.
You then built your entire response on such thinking.
Under the terms of what is a Religion then yes indeed Hashem did start it.
You gave no scripture to back up your viewpoint and took out of context comments I made so please do read what I wrote again.
Hashem created the perfect religious sect it has been altered by men but His promise is still alive and the same today.
Messianic Judaism is just another sect of Judaism which was founded by Hashem starting with the promise to Avraham like I already stated.
There are cults out there that have started their own promises that Hashem did not make with them and altered to the point of perversions but these are in no way part of the perfect religion that Hashem did indeed create.
The word in the Greek for religion does not match your pick and choosed translation to make a point. In the context of the words leading up to it and its usage in the sentence is clear that the words meaning in the verse is RELIGION
Strong's G2356 - thrēskeia
I.religious worship
A.esp. external, that which consists of ceremonies
i.religious discipline, religion
Shalom!
Yedidyah
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Post by Questor on Apr 10, 2014 18:44:59 GMT -8
Sorry to get back to you after being gone for a few weeks...life intervened, and death, and sickness amoungst my friends, and I have been too heavy of heart to post.Questor my viewpoint still stands. You built your idea by finding a translation that fit your doctrine and that is a huge doctrine mistake when coming to find the truth in anything. You then built your entire response on such thinking. Under the terms of what is a Religion then yes indeed Hashem did start it. You gave no scripture to back up your viewpoint and took out of context comments I made so please do read what I wrote again. Hashem created the perfect religious sect it has been altered by men but His promise is still alive and the same today. Messianic Judaism is just another sect of Judaism which was founded by Hashem starting with the promise to Avraham like I already stated. There are cults out there that have started their own promises that Hashem did not make with them and altered to the point of perversions but these are in no way part of the perfect religion that Hashem did indeed create. The word in the Greek for religion does not match your pick and choosed translation to make a point. In the context of the words leading up to it and its usage in the sentence is clear that the words meaning in the verse is RELIGION Strong's G2356 - thrēskeia I.religious worship A.esp. external, that which consists of ceremonies i.religious discipline, religion Shalom! Yedidyah
I wasn't speaking about 'my doctrine', particularly as I am not aware of having one, but what is in the Scriptures. My understanding of the Scriptures is that every directive of YHVH and Yehoshua is about how to live in constant worship of G-d, in every manner, thought, and action, and by doing so, come into closer and closer union with G-d while living in perfect shalom...Yehoshua's shalom. I merely take the Scriptures at their most literal meaning when it comes to what I should do, and avoid what men call 'Religion'.
To me, religions are made by man, in an forlorn attempt to seek and worship their gods. We have a Covenant from a G-d who sought us out, and told us how to live in daily contact with Him by doing what He wants. To me that is not religion at all, and religion is a poor shadow of what we have in the Covenant.
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Post by Yedidyah on Apr 10, 2014 20:07:32 GMT -8
Shalom Questor! Sorry to hear about the hardships I pray things start looking up for you. I agree that a majority of religion is made by man but I think the perfect one is still created by Hashem. I think it points out what we see so much throughout history and that is man takes something that was created for good and turns it into something it was never meant to be. I think this kind of thinking falls under doctrine and not religion. I would say I am a religious person, a follower of the perfect observant religion created by the maker of everything. Keep your eyes on Him and everything else will come into place. Again thanks for the response and sorry for your loss. Yedidyah |
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