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Post by Questor on Mar 4, 2014 22:47:50 GMT -8
I have this day been put into an invidious position where I have information I would rather not know, and have weak evidence of...only what I have heard reported to me.
The reason I have the knowledge is that it was confessed to me by a complete stranger doing work on my property, for an acquaintance that I know to be one of our brothers in Yeshua, and then demonstrated to me by the stranger when he disappeared from work to go to a casino for three hours, while his work partner continued on in his absence.
The stranger, when doing work on my property, bragged to me of deceiving and defrauding his boss while telling me what good work he does for his boss while deceiving and defrauding the man who is his boss, and my Believing acquaintance.
This is common, ordinary, working behavior in our fallen world, and I am the only witness of what was told me, and the casino trip is hearsay except for the absence of the worker for the period of time...again, an inadvertent statement by only one witness, a third party, who knows none of the workers, or their boss, but told me the worker had asked directions to the Casino, and then disappeared for 3 hours. The workers are not from my area, and I am in a rural area...despite the Casino.
I have actually not seen anything, nor observed anything except the 3 hour absence of the worker, which is none of my business. He could have been taking a well earned siesta...or doing other business.
I have only what I may have heard incorrectly, and guessed at the man's actions because of what I have heard told of him when supposedly on the job.
I too am a sinner, and hate throwing stones.
Am I to tell my Believing acquaintance of his employee's actions?
Can I even warn him, because the man could have been bragging and boasting to me, and all the information complete bull?
Help!
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Post by alon on Mar 5, 2014 2:39:00 GMT -8
You have a believing brother who is being wronged.
Even in the unlikely case that the employee is BS-ing you, his bragging about making his boss, your brother, look like a fool is bad enough.
Tell your friend what you know to be true- the man bad mouthed him to you, the client. He also disappeared for three hours. You do not know that he went to the casino, however you were told that he asked directions to it just before leaving (and right after bragging about deceiving the boss).
While you're at it, I've told people to leave and not set foot on my property again for similar things. What your friend does about his employee is up to him, and after giving him the info you should just butt out. However, if the man has no more honor than to cheat his employer and brag about it, he'd also rip you off if the chance arises. And what is the quality of work you can expect to get from him on your place? Furthermore, if he is ripping off the boss while they work on your place, he is in effect stealing from you as well, since his sloth is built into the bill you'll receive, whether you're paying on a cost basis or if the job was bid. I'd throw him off the place; and by the way, the other employees are covering for him if your brother doesn't know about it.
Dan C
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Post by alon on Mar 5, 2014 2:46:52 GMT -8
But don't mind me ... everyone (including my wife) at the AoG church where I go on the 1st day of the week is mad at me. I told them that the visiting pastor that spoke 1st day morning should have been forcibly removed from the pulpit 10 mins. into his sermon! Hey, they asked, and they know I speak my mind ... but I'm not a member; I'm just the crazy Messianic that won't eat bacon, and won't call pig poo rose petals either!
Dan C
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Post by Questor on Mar 6, 2014 4:23:31 GMT -8
But don't mind me ... everyone (including my wife) at the AoG church where I go on the 1st day of the week is mad at me. I told them that the visiting pastor that spoke 1st day morning should have been forcibly removed from the pulpit 10 mins. into his sermon! Hey, they asked, and they know I speak my mind ... but I'm not a member; I'm just the crazy Messianic that won't eat bacon, and won't call pig poo rose petals either! Dan C
I don't like what I know, and I will probably be telling my Brother about his employee, but I was concerned with not having a second real witness. Under a Beit Din, my testimony would not be allowed, and no charge could be made...right? |
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Post by alon on Mar 6, 2014 4:30:54 GMT -8
Right. But you are not bringing a charge to trial, you're just helping a brother- and yourself. I'd still tell him the guy isn't to come back on your place, which is your right as a property owner and as the client. Then you can tell him why ...
Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Mar 8, 2014 19:53:41 GMT -8
Hi Questor,
Even though you did not have a witness with you to hear what was stated from this other person, remember, God knows, hears and He sees all. He will judge this other person who has done wrong. Unless this person who did wrong is convicted in his heart, repents and takes responsibility for his actions.
This is a tough situation that you are in. When I have been in this situation and I had no other witnesses, I just simply prayed for the person who did wrong and committed them into God's hands and let Him deal with the situation. It is not easy to do because we want justice, however sometimes our flesh gets in the way and does more harm than good.
When I have left the person in God's hands, most times the person will come back to me and apologize for their wrong doing or fess up to their wrong. Or take responsibility for what they did. I would say let God work this out. However in the mean time ask God for godly wisdom in what you should do. He may tell you to confront the person or He will say to leave that person with Him.
For me I am a blunt, and direct person. When I found my voice to speak and to stand up for myself it was like new freedom for me. However there were many a time when I have put my foot in my mouth, up to my knee caps mind you. God had to teach me the hard way, many a time through tears and heartache. I had to learn to have balance. Most importantly to keep silent when necessary. This was not easy for me. Many a time when I heard unkind things stated about myself or someone else, I wanted to lash out at them or give them a piece of my mind. But God would tell me to stay silent on some issues. I would literally cry out to God and other times I would get angry with Him. I would tell Him that it was not right, or that person deserves to be told off or have a slap upside the head.
Even when I saw things being done that I knew was not right. God would tell me to be silent, while I am sitting there screaming at Him asking why. Believe it or not when ever I heard something unkind being stated wrong either about myself or someone else, I have seen God work on them and most of them would apologize for what they stated.
Also when certain people would do things wrong, such as steal something from the company or do something wrong with someone to get back at them. I have seen some of these people literally get fired from their jobs, get divorced from their spouse, lose everything that they have or something drastic would happen.
Now I must say I enjoy seeing the good outcomes of people's wrongdoing, many a time I had to see not so good things happen to them.
Enough of myself now. One thing that is always needed in situations such as yours Questor, is first of all go before God, lay the situation before Him and ask Him what He would want you to do. Secondly ask for godly wisdom. And watch and see what God will do.
There may be times God will have you speak and other times He may have you remain silent. Other times He may have you deal with the situation and other times He may not want you to do anything. Yet we also need to discern out the situation also.
When it comes to rumors, I would not listen to the rumors. Unless another person comes up to you and says yes I saw this person do this or that or they went to the casino on company time, then you can take that step. But again it is good to have several witnesses to confirm.
I hope this help some.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Mar 8, 2014 21:17:47 GMT -8
Hi Questor, Even though you did not have a witness with you to hear what was stated from this other person, remember, God knows, hears and He sees all. He will judge this other person who has done wrong. Unless this person who did wrong is convicted in his heart, repents and takes responsibility for his actions. This is a tough situation that you are in. When I have been in this situation and I had no other witnesses, I just simply prayed for the person who did wrong and committed them into God's hands and let Him deal with the situation. It is not easy to do because we want justice, however sometimes our flesh gets in the way and does more harm than good. When I have left the person in God's hands, most times the person will come back to me and apologize for their wrong doing or fess up to their wrong. Or take responsibility for what they did. I would say let God work this out. However in the mean time ask God for godly wisdom in what you should do. He may tell you to confront the person or He will say to leave that person with Him. For me I am a blunt, and direct person. When I found my voice to speak and to stand up for myself it was like new freedom for me. However there were many a time when I have put my foot in my mouth, up to my knee caps mind you. God had to teach me the hard way, many a time through tears and heartache. I had to learn to have balance. Most importantly to keep silent when necessary. This was not easy for me. Many a time when I heard unkind things stated about myself or someone else, I wanted to lash out at them or give them a piece of my mind. But God would tell me to stay silent on some issues. I would literally cry out to God and other times I would get angry with Him. I would tell Him that it was not right, or that person deserves to be told off or have a slap upside the head. Even when I saw things being done that I knew was not right. God would tell me to be silent, while I am sitting there screaming at Him asking why. Believe it or not when ever I heard something unkind being stated wrong either about myself or someone else, I have seen God work on them and most of them would apologize for what they stated. Also when certain people would do things wrong, such as steal something from the company or do something wrong with someone to get back at them. I have seen some of these people literally get fired from their jobs, get divorced from their spouse, lose everything that they have or something drastic would happen. Now I must say I enjoy seeing the good outcomes of people's wrongdoing, many a time I had to see not so good things happen to them. Enough of myself now. One thing that is always needed in situations such as yours Questor, is first of all go before God, lay the situation before Him and ask Him what He would want you to do. Secondly ask for godly wisdom. And watch and see what God will do. There may be times God will have you speak and other times He may have you remain silent. Other times He may have you deal with the situation and other times He may not want you to do anything. Yet we also need to discern out the situation also. When it comes to rumors, I would not listen to the rumors. Unless another person comes up to you and says yes I saw this person do this or that or they went to the casino on company time, then you can take that step. But again it is good to have several witnesses to confirm. I hope this help some. Moriah Ruth
I am learning more and more to leave the people around me to make their own way, and deal with the circumstances that they have created, or helped to create, but I still often feel the burden of heaviness over it. Mostly when this happens I just pray it through, and toss the actual problem to YHVH, and He does take care of the situation.
That is what I am trying to do here. The worker involved is probably as well meaning in most respects as other unbelievers...I poked a word about G-d into the conversation, and his answer was indirect, and not Godly, revealing a lack of connection to Yeshua, or a total unawareness of G-d. I believe he might look at the actions as a mischievous boy might after stealing apples from a tree that belongs to neighbor...there is a twinge of uneasiness there that is laughed off, if you know what I mean. As for the casino incident...my friend, a Believer, and a very honest man that I have known for many years was the one who told me about the worker asking him for directions to the nearby casino, so I know that much is true. I was also told that the worker left my property directly after asking my friend for the directions, disappearing for 3 hours that he should have been working on my property. I was there, and he was gone.
This whole question, however, to me was that I was the only witness of the man's stated reference of 'what the boss don't know won't hurt him', except that he is wasting the boss's time and may be cheating him. My friend is a reliable witness to me, but the worker's own admittance of wrong doing was told to me in a laughing, boastful way, and is able to be passed off as a joke, while I have no proof what so ever that the worker even went to the casino. This is why I am concerned, because I have no real proof.
I myself have taken advantage of the 'perks' of being employed in the past, and I know how lightly the world views it. These days I am sick at the very idea of stealing even little things, even a pen with advertisements on it that is meant to be taken, but others are truly indifferent, and even make allowances for it in their business expenses as if it went with the job! Never having been brought up with any moral training about right or wrong, I had to pray for help from the Ruach to develop any sense of scrupulousness.
But from our own laws in America, I know that I don't have a leg to stand on legally. It is my word against his, and what my friend told me he observed is circumstantial, not proof. To me, this puts in the realm of gossip, and that also bothers me. If I were a zealot, no doubt I would get my friend to go with me to pursue justice, but I don't know the real details. What if the man was just boasting? What if the time he took off was for other work he needed to accomplish? What if he is paid a blanket price for the job, and has control of his own hours? Construction is a tricky business, with many people hiring other people to do part of the job, until you hardly know who is who, except that they are doing the job, and there is the contractor's insurance against harm done on the jobsite. But no harm has been done to me, and I don't want to become an investigator, even though the whole thing is in my awareness when I would rather forget about it.
So, I am simply praying it through, and tossing it to YHVH, because I don't know what else to do, and I know that YHVH will take care of the matter. I was as much writing to express that this kind of problem is all over the place in the world, as my own increasing sensitivity to it as I attempt the straight and narrow.
Thank you for your advice, and for telling me about your own experiences. It helps.
Q |
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Post by Questor on Mar 8, 2014 21:22:50 GMT -8
Right. But you are not bringing a charge to trial, you're just helping a brother- and yourself. I'd still tell him the guy isn't to come back on your place, which is your right as a property owner and as the client. Then you can tell him why ... Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 4:04:57 GMT -8
I understand what you are saying Questor. Even if you were to confront or fire the person who stole from company time, this is a hard call. It would be his word against yours. Also if your trusted friend did have this worker come to him asking for directions to the casino, again this is a hard call.
The thing that came to mind is maybe that worker has a gambling issue and he needs prayer and, a friend to help him out of this situation. However, this would take much prayer and waiting to see if the person would fess up to his wrongdoing.
Yes, our "feelings" can get in the way. The question to ask ourselves, is it just my feelings or God pressing this on my heart to confront the worker? Again a hard call and much discernment.
You only have one witness to say the worker did ask for directions to the casino, even though you do not know for sure if that is where the worker went to. More then likely he did and yet did he?
I would just commit this issue into God's hands and see what happens.
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 4:10:02 GMT -8
One more thought. I also have been in situations such as yourself, where I had people tell me that they saw such a person do this or that and yet I did not see this person do this or that. I would go to the head boss and tell them what was told to me. The head boss would ask me if I myself saw them do this or that? I would say that I did not see this person do this or that. The head boss would say, well then it is just heresy or rumors. So again tough situation.
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Post by Deleted on Mar 9, 2014 4:18:56 GMT -8
One thing that I found helpful in these situations was reading the book of Proverbs. Proverbs is full of godly wisdom in dealing with certain issues and when to stay silent and when to confront. In the book of James it tells us what is demonic or worldly wisdom compared to God's wisdom.
"Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." James 3:13-17
Moriah Ruth
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Post by Questor on Mar 10, 2014 21:51:15 GMT -8
One thing that I found helpful in these situations was reading the book of Proverbs. Proverbs is full of godly wisdom in dealing with certain issues and when to stay silent and when to confront. In the book of James it tells us what is demonic or worldly wisdom compared to God's wisdom. "Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy." James 3:13-17 Moriah Ruth |
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