Resolving Jewish Objections to Yeshua 1.

[cgpb]

Resolving Jewish Objections to Jesus 1

The following thread can also be viewed at the following links:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE3yEGbUec0 Part 1

www.youtube.com/watch?v=MHLfArM6st0 Part 2

The first Jewish objection to Jesus that we shall resolve is:

"If Jesus is really the Messiah, then why isn’t there peace on earth"?

The Messianic picture painted in the Bible is one of peace. This is depicted in a verse like:

Isaiah 11:6-8

“The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling together; and a little child will lead them.7 The cow will feed with the bear, their young will lie down together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox. 8 The infant will play near the cobra’s den, and the young child will put its hand into the viper’s nest".

What Jews believe

Jews believe that when The Messiah comes, you will know it is Him because there will be peace on earth and not war, so you don’t have to speculate. Therefore the Jewish objection is “If Jesus is really the Messiah, then why isn’t there any peace on earth”? In fact many Jews feel that wars and hatred have actually increased in Jesus’ name since the time of His coming.

First of all this objection shows a very superficial understanding of the ways of God, men and the enemy on the part of the person presenting it, otherwise we could reverse the question and ask “Well why wasn’t there any peace in Ancient Israel, after all didn’t they receive the patriarchs, the prophets, the Covenants, the adoption as sons, the divine glory, the law, the temple worship and the promises?

Traditional Judaism believes that The Messiah will be recognized over a period of time through the signs that will be accomplished. For e.g. there will be peace on earth, the temple will be rebuilt, there will be a re-gathering of the exiles, Jews will return to observance , there will be an end to suffering, He will fight the wars of the Lord, etc…, etc.., etc.. So it believes that there will be a process and a recognition.

The problem with this view

However the problem with this view is that it doesn’t understand the full biblical process of how this peace has to be worked out. In other words, it recognizes the signs of the Messianic Age, but doesn’t understand nor does it give a reasonable explanation of how these signs associated with the messianic coming will be brought about in order to be fulfilled, because when Messiah does come, it’s not as if He will just snap his fingers and all 7 billion people on this planet will all of a sudden live peacefully with each other. So Judaism acknowledges say 4 but doesn’t understand that 2+2 = 4, or that 3 +1 = 4.

It’s a bit like a woman who is living in some war torn country whose husband is living overseas on some peaceful beautiful island paradise and the husband is going through all the necessary procedures needed (citizenship, passports etc…) to get his wife to come and live with him on the island. The wife can envisage being reunited with her husband and the beautiful peaceful surroundings awaiting her on the island, but she doesn’t understand all the procedures her husband has to go through in order to get his wife over there.

The Contradiction:

One of the signs associated with the coming of the Messiah is that He will fight the wars of the Lord. If there were peace on earth before He comes, (as the Jew reasons there should be if Jesus were truly the Messiah) that would mean there would be no enemies or wars for the Messiah to fight when He does come and would therefore contradict Bible prophecy. So it is fitting that peace must not be established on earth before His Coming so that when He does come He has someone to fight with and fulfill the prophecies. Once He has fought and defeated His enemies, then He will establish peace.

Peace is also subject to factors like:

a. Processes - God’s plan are worked out through processes. God could have just led Abraham to the Promised land and have him and his (future) offspring settle there after making the covenant. But He didn’t, instead He waited about 600 years after to give his descendants the land?

b. Free will – God has given people free will to choose whether they will love and serve Him. Therefore regardless of when Messiah came /comes, there will always be people on earth that chose not to love Him before establishing His Kingdom.

c. Division – Free will inevitably brings division between those that love and want to obey God with those that don’t. War and Hatred are therefore inevitable fruits of division.

“So he (Moses) stood at the entrance to the camp and said, “Whoever is for the LORD, come to me.” And all the Levites rallied to him.” (Exodus 32:26)

“But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your ancestors served beyond the Euphrates, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” (Joshua 24:15)


The First Coming or the Mission

The Bible clearly tells us that peace or reconciliation with God is only brought about through atonement which must happen through the shedding of blood. E.g. Leviticus 16:15-43. No atonement means no peace or reconciliation with God. The Bible doesn’t teach there is any other way through which man can be forgiven of sin and be reconciled back to God. Not through prayer, not through traditions, not through good intentions, not through Observance of or whatever.

Now it has been about 2.000 years since the 2nd Temple was destroyed and together with this destruction, inevitably came the abolishment of the sacrificial system of animals for the forgiveness of sins. Therefore, the Jew must ask himself what system has God initiated (that can be proven from the Holy Bible) to allow for the forgiveness of sins and the eternal salvation of Jews that were living from 70.A.D until today, and for all Jews living today and their posterity until Messiah’s Coming? Does it make sense that a loving God who is faithful to His Covenant people Israel to allow generation after generation of Jews living in a span of thousands of years to be without an atonement system through which they could achieve forgiveness of sins?

So the question every Jew must ask is:
What is the atonement system that allows the forgiveness of sins for Jews from 70A.D until now and the future ?
Where and when was it initiated?
Can it be proven from the Holy Bible and not from traditions?


God’s plan

Therefore God’s plan was that the Messiah first had to come within a specified period of time and make atonement for the sins of the world for all generations and function as a Priestly King, for we know that the High Priest makes Atonement. Once He had done this, then His message would be taken by Jews around the world and He would become a light to the nations after which His own people Israel would receive Him . When He returns, then He will make end of war and establish the rest of the Messianic promises.


The Messiah wasn’t only to be a King but a priest

Τhere is biblical proof of figures who functioned in the combined role of King and Priest.

We know that in ancient Israel primary anointed figures included the king, the High Priest and prophets (by the Spirit of God). It is often held that priests are from the line of Aaron (or Levi) whilst Kings are from the tribe of Judah (or family of David). However the Bible gives us proof that certain figures functioned in the combined role of King and Priest eventhough such a combination was not normally possible in Israel.

David:

The following verses show that King David performed certain priestly functions.

2 Samuel 24 tells us that king David offered sacrifices and only priests were supposed to do that.

“David built an altar to the LORD there and sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings. Then the LORD answered his prayer in behalf of the land, and the plague on Israel was stopped”. (2 Sam. 24: 25)

2 Samuel 6 tells us that David was directly involved with bringing the Ark of the Covenant back, and that he danced with a linen ephod – which was a priestly garment.

2 Sam. 8:17,18 talks of the officials that were involved in various aspects of leading the nation. Verse 18 tells us that:
“……..and David’s sons were priests”.

This therefore points to something not only Kingly about David’s line, but also something priestly. And since Messiah is of the line of David, He too would function both as King and Priest.

Even King Solomon also carried out certain temple related functions.

Zechariah 3:1 tells us that the High Priests name is Joshua which is short for Yeshua or Jesus. Verse 8 tells us that this high priest Joshua (descended from Aaron) and his associates (or fellow priests) are signs of things to come and that there is symbolism attached to the coming of a Branch. Branch being a Messianic title (see Jeremiah 23:5 and 33:15.

In Zechariah 6:11-12, a crown made of silver and gold is set on the head of this high priest Joshua. Now you don’t put a crown on the head of a priest, you put a crown on the head of a king.


It says:

11 Take the silver and gold and make a crown, and set it on the head of the high priest, Joshua son of Jozadak. 12 Tell him this is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘Here is the man whose name is the Branch, and he will branch out from his place and build the temple of the LORD. 13 It is he who will build the temple of the LORD, and he will be clothed with majesty and will sit and rule on his throne. And he will be a priest on his throne. And there will be harmony between the two.’ (Zechariah 6:11-13)

Clearly this priest is identified with the Messiah. So what we have here is a priest sitting on a throne carrying in his one being both the offices of priest and king.

When did the Messiah have to come?

Haggai 2:6-9 tells us that the glory of the 2nd temple would be greater than the glory of the 1st. This prophecy was given to the Prophet Haggai in about 520 B.C.

6 “This is what the LORD Almighty says: ‘In a little while I will once more shake the heavens and the earth, the sea and the dry land. 7 I will shake all nations, and what is desired by all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory,’ says the LORD Almighty. 8 ‘The silver is mine and the gold is mine,’ declares the LORD Almighty. 9 ‘The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house,’ says the LORD Almighty. ‘And in this place I will grant peace,’ declares the LORD Almighty.”(Haggai 2:6-9)

A bit of background.

King Solomon began building the 1st temple in 966 B.C.E and completed it 20 years later.It was destroyed in 587 B.C.E by the Babylonians.

Zerubbabel with the help of Joshua the High Priest began construction on the 2nd temple in 538 B.C.E . It was completed in 515 /516 B.C and was destroyed in 70 A.D by the Romans.


We know that the 2nd temple wasn't as extravagant or imposing as its predecessor, therefore what does the Lord mean when He says that “The glory of this present house will be greater than the glory of the former house”

Some Jews believe that this has to do with Herod rebuilding and beautifying the temple because the historian
Josephus records that Herod the Great completely rebuilt the Temple in 20-18 B.C even going so far as to replace the foundation stones and to smooth off the surface of the Temple Mount. This Temple became known as Herod’s Temple.

But the Bible clearly tells us that God doesn’t dwell in houses made by human hands (let alone in Herod’s).

“But who is able to build a temple for him, since the heavens, even the highest heavens, cannot contain him? Who then am I to build a temple for him, except as a place to burn sacrifices before him?” (2 Chronicles 2:6)

“However, the Most High does not live in houses made by human hands. As the prophet says:
‘Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool.
What kind of house will you build for me? says the Lord.
Or where will my resting place be? 50 Has not my hand made all these things?’ (Acts 7:48-50) (see also 1 Kings 8:27, Deuteronomy 10:14, Psalm 139 7-16, Isaiah 66.1, Jer.23:24).

In the Bible, “I will fill it with glory” doesn’t refer to beautiful furnishings of a building made by man but the presence of God often displayed through a glorious cloud or fire.

“Then the temple of the LORD was filled with the cloud, 14 and the priests could not perform their service because of the cloud, for the glory of the LORD filled the temple of God.” (2 Chronicles 5:13-14)

“34 Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. 35 Moses could not enter the tent of meeting because the cloud had settled on it, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle.”(Exodus 40:34-35) See also Exodus 40: 36-38


Also the Talmud Yoma 21b tells us that the 2nd temple didn’t have the following Holy articles:

• The Ark with the Mercy seat
• The Cherubim
• The Divine Fire
• The Holy Spirit (Ruach HaKodesh)
• The Urim and Thummin
• The Shechinah (which is the dwelling or settling divine presence of God)

“15 The traditional reading is ‘we-ikabedah’, then why is the [letter] ‘he’ omitted [in the text]? To indicate that in five 16 things the first Sanctuary differed from the second: in the ark, the ark-cover, the Cherubim,17 the fire, the Shechinah, the Holy Spirit [of Prophecy], and the Urim-we-Thummim [the Oracle Plate]? — I will tell you, They were present, but they were not as helpful [as before].” (Talmud Yoma 21b)

Therefore, how could the glory of the 2nd temple have been greater than the glory of the 1st since the Holy articles that were missing from it were the very things that embodied the very presence and glory of God!
So what is the prophet saying here?

Haggai is saying that the Messiah Himself would bring His very own presence to the 2nd temple in which He did as He Himself visited the temple, worked miracles there, and sent His Holy Spirit there after His Death and Resurrection –- Messiah gave His blood for the reconciliation of the world.

About 100 years after Haggai, we have a confirmation of this prophecy as we have the prophet Malachi prophesying that the Lord Himself will visit the temple and bring cleansing and purification. This prophecy carries a double meaning being initially fulfilled in Messiah’s earthly ministry and completely fulfilled in the last days.

”Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come,” says the LORD Almighty.2 But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.” (Malachi 3:1-2)


And here is The Deception

The Bible teaches us that there is an enemy who deceives and that he has been around for thousands of years. If he has been around for thousands of years, then he must be highly skilled in the knowledge of people and the tactics he uses to get people away from knowing and serving God.

If the Messiah did in fact come, then we can reason that the enemy would do his best to try and deter people from coming to the knowledge of God and creating situations to make it appear that Messiah did not in fact come. Like wars, hatred etc.. Therefore wouldn’t it make sense that if Messiah truly did come, then there would be more wars, hatred, division etc.. around the world in order to deceive the people?

From this we also reason that if the enemy wanted to deceive people, he would create a false peace, and the Bible tells us that the bringing of “peace”is one of the signs of a false Messiah to deceive.

“While people are saying, “Peace and safety,” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.” (1 Thessalonians 5:3)

[Questor]

The false idea of a peaceful world brought about by humans is ridiculous to me...it has never happened, and based on all the prophecies, it will not happen until Yeshua comes to force it on a be-deviled world, and maintain it by force for a thousand years.


Psalm 2:1-9 (CJB)

1 Why are the nations in an uproar, the peoples grumbling in vain?

2 The earth’s kings are taking positions, leaders conspiring together, against Adonai and his anointed.

3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters! Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs; Adonai looks at them in derision.

5 Then in his anger he rebukes them, terrifies them in his fury.

6 “I myself have installed my king on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree: Adonai said to me, ‘You are my son; today I became your father.

8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance; the whole wide world will be your possession.

9 You will break them with an iron rod, shatter them like a clay pot.’”


Sadly, I have been told by an anti-missionary Jew that if a man comes from the House of Judah, and gives the world peace, that will be enough for him to believe that Mashiach is come.  

I don't think he could conceive of an imposter, an anti-Mashiach doing that much, for he does not believe that the Adversary is more, really, than the outworking of the evil impulse in mankind, and he is not concerned about an anti-Christ in the sense that Revelation puts it, because he is also against Christians.

[Yedidyah]

Shalom!
It really depends on the upbringing of the Jewish person. In my studies I have found some that do not think that the whole 100% peace will be a sign of Messiah as much of a sign of the "8th day" Most believe Messiah will usher in this time of peace but that it does not have to be instant.
Perfect example is how some have made claims that some of the Rebbe's could have possibly been messiah. These groups are not the majority but none the less they still exist among the some of the Orthodox circles.
These people are not looked at as being factual on their idea of who messiah was even among the Jewish people but are still not separated in their beliefs for such.
The issue that we have to be careful on is the fact that not all Jews believe a certain way.
Most anti-missionary's are going after things from a Catholic viewpoint on scripture and the more educated ones will have a team who works on Messianic ideas. When compared side by side the first group is a surface group but if someone tries to deal with a highly educated anti-missionary they are not going to win under the typical doctrine most know today.
Most anti-missionary's are not searching for converts so for one unless you are born (Bloodline) Jewish they usually won't hassle or debate with you. (There is always the exception)
Have a blessed day!

Yedidyah

[Questor]

Yes, I finally fended off my anti-missionary acquaintance by telling him that he was merely attempting to shred every Renewed Covenant idea in the hope of protecting his rigid, views, and that by refusing to look at items forbidden by others, or because they were not written by other scholars was another way of locking his idea of YHVH into his convenient box of ideas, and never allowing YHVH to be all that He is able to be...only what he wanted YHVH to be.

He seemed to believe that YHVH was as limited in what He could do as any human could do under , Mishna, and Talmud, and that only scholars with his idea of the appropriate credentials could be valid, or worth studying.

It was to see the blind man believing his eyes were open, and yet studiously avoiding what lay within the confines of the Tanakh that was expressed, and pointed out in the Brit Chadashah.

The fact that he avoided fulfilled prophecy in Daniel in regard to Mashiach Yeshua being cut off exactly on time was pretty much the final straw to me.

[maranguape]

Mar 2, 2014 0:42:12 GMT -8 Questor said:

The false idea of a peaceful world brought about by humans is ridiculous to me...it has never happened, and based on all the prophecies, it will not happen until Yeshua comes to force it on a be-deviled world, and maintain it by force for a thousand years.

In my opinion, I don't find ridiculous that living humans can bring a world order with the help of HaShem. And you say 
above that it will not happen until Yeshua comes. Wherefrom would Yeshua come from Sheol? That would be impossible.
King David declares that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) That yes, would be ridiculous to expect the dead do the work of the living. Also the Psalmist says that Sheol is the eternal home of the dead.
(Psalm 49:12,20) JPS. Jesus has been dead for over 2000 years and not even a sign of his return has been given. 

Psalm 2:1-9 (CJB)

1 Why are the nations in an uproar, the peoples grumbling in vain?

2 The earth’s kings are taking positions, leaders conspiring together, against Adonai and his anointed.

3 They cry, “Let’s break their fetters! Let’s throw off their chains!”

4 He who sits in heaven laughs; Adonai looks at them in derision.

5 Then in his anger he rebukes them, terrifies them in his fury.

6 “I myself have installed my king on Tziyon, my holy mountain.”

7 “I will proclaim the decree: Adonai said to me, ‘You are my son; today I became your father.

8 Ask of me, and I will make the nations your inheritance; the whole wide world will be your possession.

9 You will break them with an iron rod, shatter them like a clay pot.’”

2) "Against Adonai and His Anointed." Who is the Anointed of Adonai, do you happen to know? If you read Habakkuk 3:13 "The Lord goes forth to save His People, to save His Anointed One." His People, God's People is Adonai's Anointed One. 
6) That's the People whose King, HaShem has installed on Zion, the mountain of the Lord.
7) This is a reference to Judah whom HaShem assigned to replace Israel the Ten Tribes when it was removed by the Assyrians into an endless exile.
(Psalm 78:67-69)
8) That's when a peaceful world will be possible.
9) Then and only then, the world insurrection against Adonai and His Anointed will be crushed before the New World Order is established. 

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Sadly, I have been told by an anti-missionary Jew that if a man comes from the House of Judah, and gives the world peace, that will be enough for him to believe that Mashiach is come.

The Messiah has come all right. Three times already. First from Egypt when the Messianic leader "Moses" guided him back into the Promised
Land. The second time from Babylon when the Messianic leader "Cyrus" proclaimed freedom for the Messiah and financed the rebuilding of
the Temple. And the last time is now and still in process since the 18th Century when the Messianic leader "Theodor Herzl" lost his life in the struggle to implant love for Zion into the heart of the Messiah so that he could return to the Land of Israel.  


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[jimmie]

Psalms 49:15 but God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave for he shall receive me. Selah

[alon]

Sept 13, 2018 15:46:01 GMT -8 maranguape said:

Very clever way to say that Israel is the messiah! But it cannot be:

Isaiah 53:8  (ESV) By oppression and judgment he was taken away; and as for his generation, who considered that he was cut off out of the land of the living, stricken for the transgression of my people?

Israel has never been cut of from the land of the living, although many have tried. But Messiah had to die for the penalty of our transgressions. And as I read it, israel will always be. They will never die off completely. Just one of many reasons Israel cannot be their own messiah. That's like saying "We will be our own gods."

Dan C

[Elizabeth]

[quote author="maranguape"
The Messiah has come all right. Three times already. First from Egypt when the Messianic leader "Moses" guided him back into the Promised
Land. The second time from Babylon when the Messianic leader "Cyrus" proclaimed freedom for the Messiah and financed the rebuilding of
the Temple. And the last time is now and still in process since the 18th Century when the Messianic leader "Theodor Herzl" lost his life in the struggle to implant love for Zion into the heart of the Messiah so that he could return to the Land of Israel.  

Maranguape, this statement actually seems to support our argument for Yeshua as I see it. You are saying Israel can deliver herself while giving examples where she couldn't and didn't. We are also told another one (a prophet) will come like Moses who acts as an intercessior because the people prayed not to have to face G-d on their own. (Deut. 18:15) Do you understand this to be referring to Messiah? If not Messiah, then who? Clearly, we see Yeshua being the answer to this prayer.

Other verses that come to my mind in response are
"For thus says the L-rd G-d; Behold I Myself will search for my sheep and will seek them out."
Ezekiel 34:11

"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep."
Yeshua in John 10:11

Also, Ezekiel 34:11 is said in regard to shepherds that G-d is against and has to remove from tending His flock because they feed themselves instead of the flock. This just gives you more context to our point of view about Yeshua's remarks toward the leadership in Israel and overturning the tables of the money changers.

[Questor]

Sept 13, 2018 15:46:01 GMT -8 maranguape said:

Mar 2, 2014 0:42:12 GMT -8 Questor said:

In my opinion, I don't find ridiculous that living humans can bring a world order with the help of HaShem. And you say 
above that it will not happen until Yeshua comes. Wherefrom would Yeshua come from Sheol? That would be impossible.
King David declares that once dead, no one will ever return from the grave. (II Samuel 12:23) That yes, would be ridiculous to expect the dead do the work of the living. Also the Psalmist says that Sheol is the eternal home of the dead.
(Psalm 49:12,20) JPS. Jesus has been dead for over 2000 years and not even a sign of his return has been given. 

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Tell me, do you come here to challenge line by line all that is written here about Yeshua, or to learn why we think Yeshua is the one promised us by Moshe? You sound just like an anti-missionary, with a list of points to use wherever Messianic Believers happen to fellowship.

If you are not seriously seeking Yeshua, but simply coming here to annoy those who earnestly seek Yeshua in the Tanach by spitting out what you have gleaned from anti-missionaries, why should we waste time trying to convince someone who sounds like he is determined not to be convinced?

[Elizabeth]

Well the conversation over the last several days helped me either way. I haven't really been able to think through my beliefs like this, and I hadn't heard much of what was brought up and discussed so no harm or annoyance done here.