Questioning

[Deleted]

I didn't know where to put this, however I am sure Yedidyah will put this some where.

I am sort of ranting or better yet questioning.

Would God really allow a new religion to come forth such as Christianity? Was this His doing or was it man's doing?

What is so totally wrong with Christianity that others reject us, hate us or simply state that everything is wrong with Christianity? Now I am not saying that everything in Christianity is truth. There is truth found in it, however I find that many who convert to MJ or whatever other religion, they have all negative things to say about Christianity.

Yes, I agree that there are pagan teachings and practices in Christianity. Yes, there is false teachings and doctrines found in certain churches and groups. Such as Replacement Theology, Kingdom Now, the Faith movement and prosperity teachings. Others deny the trinity and gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit. Some are now denying who Yeshua is, denying His deity. Others come up with others foolish thinking.

Yet there are groups who do stand for the word of God and for the biblical doctrines. And yes, we have Christmas and Easter pagans and other pagans that have crept into the church.

I have not completely made up my mind rather to go all the way with observant. I see both sides of the coin.
Yet the question remains, who is truth? One side state that they have the truth and the other side will say that one of them is living or believing a lie.

I have always believed that Christianity was the true religion, only because I was taught that it was. The Christians will state that if I follow then I will go to hell. The MJ state that if I reject the laws of God that I will go to hell. Who is right?

I desire to follow after God and obey Him to the best of my ability. My walk with God has not always been perfect or without sin. Yet I desire to serve Him and spend eternity with Him. But which way should I go is the question.

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... Would God really allow a new religion to come forth such as Christianity? Was this His doing or was it man's doing? ...

God allows man to practice and even to invent any kind of religion we want. Part of that "free choice" thing.

To answer whether He is behind "Christianity" or man, you'd have to define your terms. In a broad sense, Messianic believers are Christians. So are Catholics and Mormons, Baptists and the Assemblies.

What is so totally wrong with Christianity that others reject us, hate us or simply state that everything is wrong with Christianity? Now I am not saying that everything in Christianity is truth. There is truth found in it, however I find that many who convert to MJ or whatever other religion, they have all negative things to say about Christianity.

Often we speak negatively about things in Christianity and it may seem that we are absolutely down on it. In truth, there are some good things in most Christian denominations, however since there is no need for correction there we don't discuss what is right.

Yes, I agree that there are pagan teachings and practices in Christianity. Yes, there is false teachings and doctrines found in certain churches and groups. Such as Replacement Theology, Kingdom Now, the Faith movement and prosperity teachings. Others deny the trinity and gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit. Some are now denying who Yeshua is, denying His deity. Others come up with others foolish thinking.

It's , but you can find some groups flying Messianic colors that espouse those same things.

Yet there are groups who do stand for the word of God and for the biblical doctrines. And yes, we have Christmas and Easter pagans and other pagans that have crept into the church.

Easter and Christmas haven't crept in, they've taken over! One of the things I tell Christian friends who ask me about these is even if we discount the paganism in these holiday- they are still evil because they keep people from studying, understanding and keeping the feasts that were commanded by God! And if these groups really did stand for the Word, they'd follow the whole Word, keep the feasts and Shabbat, and study .

I have not completely made up my mind rather to go all the way with observant. I see both sides of the coin.
Yet the question remains, who is truth? One side state that they have the truth and the other side will say that one of them is living or believing a lie.

No matter what you decide to do, someone is not going to like it. What does God lead you to do?

The only truth is scripture, and you need to read it and decide for yourself. Others will lead you astray.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you are in a similar situation as me, where your spouse is hostile to Messianism. This can be a problem with keeping all the mitzvoth. In this case, it was explained to me that preserving your marriage is a higher mitzvah than, say, putting up a mezuzah. Other things you can do, such as giving up pork and shellfish. And you can study, as well as pray for a softening of your husbands heart.

I have always believed that Christianity was the true religion, only because I was taught that it was. The Christians will state that if I follow then I will go to hell. The MJ state that if I reject the laws of God that I will go to hell. Who is right?

Know what I tell people who want to tell me I'm going to go to Hell for my beliefs? ... go on, take a guess ...

Yep, yer right in 1!

I desire to follow after God and obey Him to the best of my ability. My walk with God has not always been perfect or without sin. Yet I desire to serve Him and spend eternity with Him. But which way should I go is the question.

You're asking this on a Messianic forum, so the answer is obviously ... the only one who can decide that is you. My only advice on this one is to not look at things as cut and dried, either/or, absolute to the Nth degree. That is our Greek upbringing that wants to tell us this. Think more Hebraicly- there are grey areas, and some mitzvoth are more important than others. You may just have to do what you can. It is tough, believe me. But you can be a Messianic amongst the gentiles. And that may be exactly where God has called you to be!

I still take flack for my beliefs. However some Christians are now starting to come to me and asking questions; and they are accepting the answers more graciously. I am arranging for a Messianic Jewish speaker to come to our church and talk. And there are other signs that many are softening towards my being a light of truth in their midst!

I'll pray for you, as I know how difficult the position you are in can be; and how hard the decisions are to make. Go slow, allow yourself to fail, and trust God to show you in His Word where you need to be.

Dan C

edit: just as an example, my wife did buy me a mezuzah and it is up on the front entry doorframe. I placed it in the Ashkenazi tradition, as her dad used to. So she has softened considerably as well, though you wouldn't know it to talk to her about Messianism or Judaism.

[Deleted]

Thinking.

[Questor]

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I didn't know where to put this, however I am sure Yedidyah will put this some where.

I am sort of ranting or better yet questioning.

Would God really allow a new religion to come forth such as Christianity? Was this His doing or was it man's doing?

G-d allowed Christianity to happen because it was still spreading the word about Yeshua.  As for Christianity as an ever-changing religion, YHVH knew exactly what would happen, and warned everyone about it. Yeshua spoke of it...the Apostles wrote of it. And it was not meant to be a new religion...just cleaning up the beliefs and actions of the Israelites, and making the Renewed Covenant open to everyone. The Adversary worked very hard, and starting messing things up from the falling of the Spirit at Pentecost. An ever more paganized Christianity was not G-d's desire, but He used it anyway...and every generation there were those that truly believed in and followed Yeshua.



Each one person who believes in Yeshua sees all the Scriptures from their own viewpoint. No one Messianic Jew or Messianic Gentile has got it right, or can get it right...the only One who ever did get it right died for our sins.

We are human, and faulty, and we will not be able to make ourselves over in Yeshua's image...YHVH has to make us into a new creature through the Ruach haKodesh.

We were given the Ruach haKodesh to begin a transformation...a slow, Holy Spirit guided journey from being very imperfect to being less imperfect. Those of us, Jewish or Gentile, are trying to incorporate all of the Teachings in the Scriptures. Those brought up Jewish add Yeshua and Grace to a lifestyle of keeping . The rest of us must add the teachings in one by one, not all at once.

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

What is so totally wrong with Christianity that others reject us, hate us or simply state that everything is wrong with Christianity? Now I am not saying that everything in Christianity is truth. There is truth found in it, however I find that many who convert to MJ or whatever other religion, they have all negative things to say about Christianity.

Yes, I agree that there are pagan teachings and practices in Christianity. Yes, there is false teachings and doctrines found in certain churches and groups. Such as Replacement Theology, Kingdom Now, the Faith movement and prosperity teachings. Others deny the trinity and gifts and callings of the Holy Spirit. Some are now denying who Yeshua is, denying His deity. Others come up with others foolish thinking.

Yet there are groups who do stand for the word of God and for the biblical doctrines. And yes, we have Christmas and Easter pagans and other pagans that have crept into the church.

From a Rabbinical Jewish standpoint, anyone who believes in Jesus Christ/Yeshua haMashiach IS a Christian, including Messianic Jews. To the extent that we can answer yes to the question, "Do you follow in Jesus's footsteps?" with a Yes...we ARE Christians. But being Messianic was merely a very specific type of Judaism at the time of the Apostles. Christianity has always broken and splintered from the first days after the Apostles died, adding something here, and getting rid of other things.

None of these things automatically turn a Christian into a Pagan, or turn them away from Yeshua. If they believe and trust in Yeshua, and follow what is said in the New Testament, loving YHVH and loving their neighbor, and acting like it, they are still saved. They will do stupid and silly and secular or pagan things, and fail in observance, but truly loving   G-d, and being guided by the Ruach will keep them safe...it just will not give them victory in this life, and it will affect their rank and status in the Kingdom.  

Obedience to , or the lack of it, does not affect their salvation.  If they are taught badly, and do not seek the Holy Spirit for instruction they are like babies, trusting in all innocence in Yeshua, but not growing very much, and perhaps not able to.  Still, if they do the little they are taught, believing and trusting G-d, and loving others, and helping people, it is enough.

The Holy Spirit will intervene, and lead them a little further, here and there, nudging and guiding them towards what YHVH wants them to do.  Not everyone has an urging to go deeper...not all of us are gifted to understand more than a bare minimum, or even want to.  It does not mean that YHVH does not love them, and know that they love Him, and do what they are able to do.

Matthew 5:19 (KJV)
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


Salvation is a gift of YHVH through Yeshua by our faith in Him.  You are saved already...you are merely trying to become more obedient.  

Those of us that attempt to keep the , and teach that learning all of YHVH's desire for us, and keeping all that is in the entire Bible, Tanakh and Brit Chadashah both, will have some reward as well, because we are really trying to please G-d by showing our faith and love by performing our mitzvot, and thus showing our obedience.  Our obedience to all of the Bible is love of G-d in action...a very proof of faith in Yeshua.

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I have not completely made up my mind rather to go all the way with observant. I see both sides of the coin.

Yet the question remains, who is truth? One side state that they have the truth and the other side will say that one of them is living or believing a lie.

There are no sides other than following Yeshua, or not following Yeshua.

HOW you follow Yeshua...only the Holy Spirit can tell you if you are heading in the right direction. No one Believer, regardless of his denomination, has it right, not even Messianic Judaism. Messianic Judaism is Observant Christianity, with all the Greco/Roman Philosophy and Pagan influences taken away.

I myself am as Observant as I can be, based on what the Ruach haKodesh is leading me to. What does that mean? It means I don't know yet how to incorporate all that I am learning about into my life.

I add a little bit more every week or two. I keep trying and trying and trying to get it 'RIGHT ENOUGH', and feel no sense of sin simply because I do not know enough yet, and am poor in my performance of every Mitzvot uttered by YHVH or expounded upon by Yeshua.

The Ruach is not unhappy with me...He knows how fast I am going to go anyway, before I do it. I am not always pleased with my inability to do things better in being Observant, but that mostly pertains to the Sabbath, Kashrut, and the Feasts. When I look through the 613 commandments, I know which apply to me that I am not doing, or shouldn't do.  Most of them I already do because of what Yeshua taught.

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I have always believed that Christianity was the true religion, only because I was taught that it was. The Christians will state that if I follow then I will go to hell. The MJ state that if I reject the laws of God that I will go to hell. Who is right?

The original version of Christianity was Messianic Judaism. The Christians that say walking in Yeshua's footsteps, and doing what He did leads to damnation are just unaware of the truth.

Yeshua was a Jew, and perfect at it. He wanted us to become His disciples, and do as He did. The New Testament writings are all about following in a more loving way, and resting in Grace when you mess up, because no one can keep perfectly. No one has, except Yeshua.

Messianic Judaism is correct in saying that if you do not do what Yeshua said to do, to love YHVH, and love your neighbor as yourself, you will be damned. That is because if you trust Yeshua, and love Him, you will do what He wants. If you don't love Yeshua enough to follow in His footsteps, you do not really believe in Him, but in just a Cartoon, Easy Grace Jesus. That is why Yeshua will say to many so-called Christians:

Matthew 7:21-25 (CJB)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’
23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’
24 “So, everyone who hears these words of mine and acts on them will be like a sensible man who built his house on bedrock.
25 The rain fell, the rivers flooded, the winds blew and beat against that house, but it didn’t collapse, because its foundation was on rock.


G-D wants obedience so He can give you blessings instead of curses, but following is not going to get you saved.  Following is something that Believers do BECAUSE they love YHVH and Yeshua and the Ruach haKodesh.

Faith gets you saved through Grace, and also in permanant connection with the Holy Spirit, who writes the on your heart, here a little, there a little, until you know it all, and do it all, as second nature, because you have been changed.

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I desire to follow after God and obey Him to the best of my ability. My walk with God has not always been perfect or without sin. Yet I desire to serve Him and spend eternity with Him. But which way should I go is the question.

Moriah Ruth

Following G-d's commandments cannot be wrong, if they apply to you. Some don't, either because of your sex, or not being a Levite, or Cohanim, or not being in Israel with a Temple.  
Loving G-d makes you want what He wants more than what you want.  YHVH wants obedience as proof of your love for Him.  Start by talking to YHVH about it, and asking Him where you are to start. Doing the first Ten Commandments with all your heart and soul will keep you busy enough until Abba tells you to add something else on.

All of us want to do it all, as well as is humanly possible. Start by keeping all of the New Testament, and adding on the whole Ten Commandments...not in a Jewish way, or a Christian way, but Moriah Ruth's way...in quietness and peace, within your own culture.  Read each Mitzvot in the Scriptures, and talk to G-d about how to keep it within your family and community without causing strife.

After all, you are only adding obedience to love...nothing more.  And in your obedience, you become more like Yeshua, just as He wanted.

[jimmie]

Matt:23:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


I have been to a lot of churches. Everyone of them claimed that Christ was there.

[Frank T. Clark]

Good, sincere question. A lot of good comments. When it comes to obeying the , the clincher for me is Malachi 4 (in the KJV):

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
Mal 4:2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
Mal 4:3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
Mal 4:4 Remember ye the law of Moses my servant, which I commanded unto him in Horeb for all Israel, with the statutes and judgments.
Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

The chapter is the word/voice of God. God clearly speaks to those at the end of time. God says "Remember ye the law of Moses". "Remember" certainly does not mean "ignore". I believe it means "obey". I cannot ignore the voice of God! Therefore, I study and obey. Jewish, Messianic, Christian, Adventist are all names I don't care about. Call me "obedient" by the "grace" of God. This is my handhold on the Solid Rock.

[Deleted]

I'm still thinking and pondering.

[alon]

Jan 26, 2014 9:47:13 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... What is so totally wrong with Christianity that others reject us, hate us or simply state that everything is wrong with Christianity? Now I am not saying that everything in Christianity is truth. There is truth found in it, however I find that many who convert to MJ or whatever other religion, they have all negative things to say about Christianity.

...Yet there are groups who do stand for the word of God and for the biblical doctrines.

... I have always believed that Christianity was the true religion, only because I was taught that it was. ... Who is right?

... I desire to follow after God and obey Him to the best of my ability. ... .

I attend a mainstream (Assembly of God) church where obedience is taught from the pulpit. I'm involved with four ministries- three at the AoG church I attend and one at the Nazarene church where I sometimes fellowship. All teach obedience; in fact, all come to within a hairsbreadth of being Messianic! Yet they all inevitably fall away, back into the Greco-Roman sewer where they were spawned. They define obedience as being true to the Ten Commandments and their own interpretation of the "New Legal Document" so craftily twisted by ha satan from the Nicolatians to the early church fathers, mostly through the fifth century CE. Then from the time of Marten Luther to now, our own "Protestant" fathers and commentators have placed their own meanings on religion based on these falsehoods. We are tauht the dogma that the "Old Law was for the Jews, and we are neither responsible to nor should we obey it. We're given false meanings and interpretations of New Testament scripture, and brainwashed into not questioning their "truths."

Since working much of my life with mainC, and especially the last few years, I've come to understand that while it is possible to worship with them and even to be a beacon of truth to them, it is a waste of time and energy to serve with them in ministries. As my current obligations expire, I am leaving their ministries. All I will stay with is the ministry to those with chronic disabilities.

My efforts will better be served in some kind of Messianic outreach or ministry. I still love those Christians who I fellowship with. However I am coming to see that this one irreconcilable difference separates us. Attitudes also separate us at times. I've been set up and ambushed by "friends," ostracized by some who called themselves "brothers," and one close family friend labeled me a "Judiazer" and won't even say hello. Always it is the mainC folks who turn on me, never the other way 'round.

So I understand the gravity of your decision. If you refuse to lie; if you abstain from answering questions or tell the truth of your convictions; there may be repercussions. So make sure what you are getting into, and the people involved. I'd be upfront with them about your beliefs so that later they cannot say they were deceived. Make sure you trust them; and still be on your guard. But most of all, know where you stand and how far you are willing to go to make that stand, because the enemy will surely be lying in wait for you. Again, I wish you the best and am in prayer for you.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Thank you Alon. I'm still thinking about this issue at hand. Not sure what to say at this moment in time. However thank you for your encouragement.

Moriah Ruth

[Frank T. Clark]

Feb 3, 2014 14:08:52 GMT -8 alon said:

Since working much of my life with mainC, and especially the last few years, I've come to understand that while it is possible to worship with them and even to be a beacon of truth to them, it is a waste of time and energy to serve with them in ministries. Dan C

This strikes a strong sympathetic response in me. I understand the feeling all too well.

It is a little different with me because the denomination I worship with does uphold the seventh-day Sabbath. This is a big step toward fully observant compared to the Sunday bunch. I still work some in their ministries because they reach out to the Sunday bunch and the world with weekly Sabbath truth but it is troubling because they reject the rest of the truth.

I heartily support some ministries that do as I do to spread the whole truth among my community (family of origin) where I worship as well as reach the Sunday bunch and the world. They have a 24/7 television broadcast (http://bibleexplorations.info/)!