On Torah and Grace

[Questor]

jedidiah said:

Shalom Questor!
I pulled this from your post. I think we should look into Galatians 3:23-25 again.
Below is your post and your commentary of what you said it is saying here.

Galatians 3:23-25 (CJB)
23 Now before the time for this trusting faithfulness came, we were imprisoned in subjection to the system which results from perverting the into legalism, kept under guard until this yet-to-come trusting faithfulness would be revealed.
24 Accordingly, the functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful.
25 But now that the time for this trusting faithfulness has come, we are no longer under a custodian.

"Interesting. We are not to be so bound to the laws in the now that we are under Mashiach Yeshua in trusting faithfulness as the Jews under the were. The laws and judgments given to Moses were given both to teach a people how YHVH would have them be, but the Jews at the time of the Exodus did not know that there was no ability for Humans to keep the law perfectly. They agreed blindly to the Mosaic Covenant, assuming in their strength that they could."

Let me offer my take on this

The was written in part to reveal what sin is.
It also has areas for sinners and punishment for that sin. We are told it is not too hard for us to do.
Above you wrote it was impossible, that there was no ability to keep the law perfectly.
And I think we can all agree that they did in No way agree blindly to the Covenant. They were given the and agreed to do what Hashem said.
It was not that there was fault in the just like today we find no fault in the but rather it is the faults of man that are brought to light through the . Let's look at the first since it is the foundation and all is built upon it.

Deuteronomy 30:10-19
10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being. 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it! 15 "Look! I am presenting you today with, on the one hand, life and good; and on the other, death and evil - 16 in that I am ordering you today to love ADONAI your God, to follow his ways, and to obey his mitzvot, regulations and rulings ; for if you do, you will live and increase your numbers; and ADONAI your God will bless you in the land you are entering in order to take possession of it. 17 But if your heart turns away, if you refuse to listen, if you are drawn away to prostrate yourselves before other gods and serve them; 18 I am announcing to you today that you will certainly perish; you will not live long in the land you are crossing the Yarden to enter and possess. 19 "I call on heaven and earth to witness against you today that I have presented you with life and death, the blessing and the curse. Therefore, choose life, so that you will live, you and your descendants,

So Hashem say's We can do it and if we place our trust in His words.
If we keep the upon our tongue and in our hearts with the guidance of Hashem there is nothing impossible within scripture for us to do.
In one hand life and good, in the other hand death and evil. We can not cross the hands here and mix the two. What is said here is still true to this day.

To the best of my knowledge, when reading Exodus, not all of the commandments of how to live as an Israelite had been given, nor the Levitical atonements were in place, nor the Sanctuary made, nor was everything understood by the people at the time of the reading of the commandments.
I do not see the first readings of the law in Exodus to the people as being all that is specified at the giving of the Covenant that is specified in Numbers, Leviticus and Deuteronomy.

Deuteronomy 1:1-3 (CJB)
1 These are the words Moshe spoke to all Isra’el on the far side of the Yarden River, in the desert, in the ‘Aravah, across from Suf, between Pa’ran and Tofel, Lavan, Hatzerot and Di-Zahav.
2 It is eleven days’ journey from Horev to Kadesh-Barnea by way of Mount Se‘ir.
3 On the first day of the eleventh month of the fortieth year, Moshe spoke to the people of Isra’el, reviewing everything Adonai had ordered him to tell them.

There was a lot of time between the first Commandments given to the people of Israel in Exodus. The Israelites had moved from Saudi Arabia, though Midian up into the eastern side of the Jordan, in the desert.

A lot happened, and a lot of the Law given to Moshes for the Israelites was slowly put into place. The Israelites agreed to do as Moshe said, and many did, under the sacrificial system, but they did not keep the without sin…it was merely forgiven them because of the sacrificial offerings. I do not consider that keeping perfectly, because there was sin.


Exodus 19:1-6 (CJB)
1 (iv) In the third month after the people of Isra’el had left the land of Egypt, the same day they came to the Sinai Desert.
2 After setting out from Refidim and arriving at the Sinai Desert, they set up camp in the desert; there in front of the mountain, Isra’el set up camp.
3 Moshe went up to God, and Adonai called to him from the mountain: “Here is what you are to say to the household of Ya‘akov, to tell the people of Isra’el:
4 ‘You have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I carried you on eagles’ wings and brought you to myself.
5 Now if you will pay careful attention to what I say and keep my covenant, then you will be my own treasure from among all the peoples, for all the earth is mine;
6 and you will be a kingdom of cohanim for me, a nation set apart.’ These are the words you are to speak to the people of Isra’el7 (v) Moshe came, summoned the leaders of the people and presented them with all these words which Adonai had ordered him to say.
8 All the people answered as one, “Everything Adonai has said, we will do.” Moshe reported the words of the people to Adonai.
9 Adonai said to Moshe, “See, I am coming to you in a thick cloud, so that the people will be able to hear when I speak with you and also to trust in you forever.” Moshe had told Adonai what the people had said;
10 so Adonai said to Moshe, “Go to the people; today and tomorrow separate them for me by having them wash their clothing;
11 and prepare for the third day. For on the third day, Adonai will come down on Mount Sinai before the eyes of all the people.

Exodus 20:1 (CJB)
1 Then God said all these words:
2 ‏א‎ 2 “I am Adonai your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the abode of slavery.
3 ‏ב‎ 3 “You are to have no other gods before me.
4 You are not to make for yourselves a carved image or any kind of representation of anything in heaven above, on the earth beneath or in the water below the shoreline.
5 You are not to bow down to them or serve them; for I, Adonai your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sins of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,
6 but displaying grace to the thousandth generation of those who love me and obey my mitzvot.
7 ‏ג‎ 7 “You are not to use lightly the name of Adonai your God, because Adonai will not leave unpunished someone who uses his name lightly.
8 ‏ד‎ 8 “Remember the day, Shabbat, to set it apart for God.
9 You have six days to labor and do all your work,
10 but the seventh day is a Shabbat for Adonai your God. On it, you are not to do any kind of work — not you, your son or your daughter, not your male or female slave, not your livestock, and not the foreigner staying with you inside the gates to your property.
11 For in six days, Adonai made heaven and earth, the sea and everything in them; but on the seventh day he rested. This is why Adonai blessed the day, Shabbat, and separated it for himself.
12 ‏ה‎ 12 “Honor your father and mother, so that you may live long in the land which Adonai your God is giving you.
13 ‏ו‎ 13 “Do not murder.
14 ‏ז‎ (14) “Do not commit adultery.
15 ‏ח‎ (15) “Do not steal.
16 ‏ט‎ (16) “Do not give false evidence against your neighbor.
17 ‏י‎ 14(17) “Do not covet your neighbor’s house; do not covet your neighbor’s wife, his male or female slave, his ox, his donkey or anything that belongs to your neighbor.”
18 (A: vii) All the people experienced the thunder, the lightning, the sound of the shofar, and the mountain smoking. When the people saw it, they trembled. Standing at a distance,
19 they said to Moshe, “You, speak with us; and we will listen. But don’t let God speak with us, or we will die.”
20 Moshe answered the people, “Don’t be afraid, because God has come only to test you and make you fear him, so that you won’t commit sins.”
21 So the people stood at a distance, but Moshe approached the thick darkness where God was.

And then is written down all the commandments in Exodus 21-23. The people did not need to hear them all…they had already agreed to whatever Moshe would receive from YHVH.

I see a lot of time, and instruction of what Moshe received from YHVH directly. I see regulations and instructions added to the first Commandments given by G-d to Moshe, and then by Moshe to the people.

I do not see the being given all at once into the hearing of the people in Exodus, nor do I think they could have envisioned what would be all their duty under the .

Yes, the people of Israel later agreed to all of everything specified in the reading of the Law in Deuteronomy at the institution of Shavuot, and I do not doubt their hearts when they agreed to it all, for months had passed, and many of the laws given by were adjudicated, and interpreted to fit each specific occasion and question, and the Mishna began in the beginning of customs to ensure the laws were kept.

I don’t think they understood what it would come to mean, nor how difficult it would be for those of their descendants hundreds of years later, when the Mishna, and the Talmud was added to the , until one has the culture wrapped around the commandments in the .

When Sh’aul discourses to those people in Galatia, he was not speaking to the Jews alone, but to the Gentiles, that lived under Noahide laws, plus the Commandments laid on them by Ya’acov in the Jerusalem council, slowly being brought under as they learned and grew in YHVH.

And Sh’aul is not saying to not keep the law as that is & Mishna & Talmud. He is speaking to keep .
Look at the full passage:

Galatians 3:3-29 (CJB)
3 Are you that stupid? Having begun with the Spirit’s power, do you think you can reach the goal under your own power?
4 Have you suffered so much for nothing? If that’s the way you think, your suffering certainly will have been for nothing!
5 What about God, who supplies you with the Spirit and works miracles among you — does he do it because of your legalistic observance of commands or because you trust in what you heard and are faithful to it?
6 It was the same with Avraham: “He trusted in God and was faithful to him, and that was credited to his account as righteousness.”
7 Be assured, then, that it is those who live by trusting and being faithful who are really children of Avraham.
8 Also the Tanakh, foreseeing that God would consider the Gentiles righteous when they live by trusting and being faithful, told the Good News to Avraham in advance by saying, “In connection with you, all the Goyim will be blessed.”
9 So then, those who rely on trusting and being faithful are blessed along with Avraham, who trusted and was faithful.
10 For everyone who depends on legalistic observance of commands lives under a curse, since it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the Scroll of the .”
11 Now it is evident that no one comes to be declared righteous by God through legalism, since “The person who is righteous will attain life by trusting and being faithful.”
12 Furthermore, legalism is not based on trusting and being faithful, but on the text that says, “Anyone who does these things will attain life through them.”
13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.”
14 Yeshua the Messiah did this so that in union with him the Gentiles might receive the blessing announced to Avraham, so that through trusting and being faithful, we might receive what was promised, namely, the Spirit.
15 Brothers, let me make an analogy from everyday life: when someone swears an oath, no one else can set it aside or add to it.
16 Now the promises were made to Avraham and to his seed. It doesn’t say, “and to seeds,” as if to many; on the contrary, it speaks of one — “and to your seed” — and this “one” is the Messiah.
17 Here is what I am saying: the legal part of the , which came into being 430 years later, does not nullify an oath sworn by God, so as to abolish the promise.
18 For if the inheritance comes from the legal part of the , it no longer comes from a promise. But God gave it to Avraham through a promise.
19 So then, why the legal part of the ? It was added in order to create transgressions, until the coming of the seed about whom the promise had been made. Moreover, it was handed down through angels and a mediator.
20 Now a mediator implies more than one, but God is one.
21 Does this mean that the legal part of the stands in opposition to God’s promises? Heaven forbid! For if the legal part of the which God gave had had in itself the power to give life, then righteousness really would have come by legalistically following such a .
22 But instead, the Tanakh shuts up everything under sin; so that what had been promised might be given, on the basis of Yeshua the Messiah’s trusting faithfulness, to those who continue to be trustingly faithful.
23 Now before the time for this trusting faithfulness came, we were imprisoned in subjection to the system which results from perverting the into legalism, kept under guard until this yet-to-come trusting faithfulness would be revealed.
24 Accordingly, the functioned as a custodian until the Messiah came, so that we might be declared righteous on the ground of trusting and being faithful.
25 But now that the time for this trusting faithfulness has come, we are no longer under a custodian.
26 For in union with the Messiah, you are all children of God through this trusting faithfulness;
27 because as many of you as were immersed into the Messiah have clothed yourselves with the Messiah, in whom
28 there is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor freeman, neither male nor female; for in union with the Messiah Yeshua, you are all one.
29 Also, if you belong to the Messiah, you are seed of Avraham and heirs according to the promise.

I have no doubt that many Jews have been upright in their walk, and consistently in obedience to to the best of human ability, but I do not believe that anyone except Yeshua has been without fault in keeping all the .

They were blameless perhaps, under the sacrificial system, but not perfect in keeping the . Certainly not blameless since 70 AD, nor in other times when the First Temple was destroyed.

The was given first as a means of coming to live in a godly manner, to be separate from all who would not seek to follow YHVH, and to become a people. But the was also given to expose sin…and the sin nature of man. Within the Levitical commandments, temporary mercy was given, year by year, on the Day of Atonement. But in every man’s life there was sin. It was forgiven sin, but still sin was committed, even as now sin is committed by all of us.

The Israelites agreed to the covenant, then had the law applied, and a society formed, and then agreed again, to keep all the commandments that make up the 613 Mitzvot.

Jeremiah was the one who speaks of the as being inadequate…not I.


Hebrews 8:6-9 (CJB)
6 But now the work Yeshua has been given to do is far superior to theirs, just as the covenant he mediates is better. For this covenant has been given as on the basis of better promises.
7 Indeed, if the first covenant had not given ground for faultfinding, there would have been no need for a second one.
8 For God does find fault with the people when he says, “‘See! The days are coming,’ says Adonai, ‘when I will establish over the house of Isra’el and over the house of Y’hudah a new covenant.
9 “‘It will not be like the covenant which I made with their fathers on the day when I took them by their hand and led them forth out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, did not remain faithful to my covenant; so I, for my part, stopped concerning myself with them,’ says Adonai.

Jeremiah 31:31-34 (CJB)
31 “Here, the days are coming,” says Adonai, “when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra’el and with the house of Y’hudah.
32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them,” says Adonai.
33 “For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra’el after those days,” says Adonai: “I will put my within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people.
34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, ‘Know Adonai’; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more.”

Romans 3:1-31 (CJB)
1 Then what advantage has the Jew? What is the value of being circumcised?
2 Much in every way! In the first place, the Jews were entrusted with the very words of God.
3 If some of them were unfaithful, so what? Does their faithlessness cancel God’s faithfulness?
4 Heaven forbid! God would be true even if everyone were a liar! — as the Tanakh says, “so that you, God, may be proved right in your words and win the verdict when you are put on trial.”
5 Now if our unrighteousness highlights God’s righteousness, what should we say? That God is unrighteous to inflict his anger on us? (I am speaking here the way people commonly do.)
6 Heaven forbid! Else, how could God judge the world?
7 “But,” you say, “if, through my lie, God’s truth is enhanced and brings him greater glory, why am I still judged merely for being a sinner?”
8 Indeed! Why not say (as some people slander us by claiming we do say), “Let us do evil, so that good may come of it”? Against them the judgment is a just one!
9 So are we Jews better off? Not entirely; for I have already made the charge that all people, Jews and Gentiles alike, are controlled by sin.
10 As the Tanakh puts it, “There is no one righteous, not even one! No one understands,
11 no one seeks God,
12 all have turned away and at the same time become useless; there is no one who shows kindness, not a single one!
13 “Their throats are open graves, they use their tongues to deceive. Vipers’ venom is under their lips.
14 Their mouths are full of curses and bitterness.
15 “Their feet rush to shed blood,
16 in their ways are ruin and misery,
17 and the way of shalom they do not know.
18 “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
19 Moreover, we know that whatever the says, it says to those living within the framework of the , in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God’s adverse judgment.
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of commands, because what really does is show people how sinful they are.
21 But now, quite apart from , God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the and the Prophets give their witness to it as well —
22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise.
24 By God’s grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua.
25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;
26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua’s faithfulness.
27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a that has to do with trusting.
28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of commands.
29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles;
30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting.
31 Does it follow that we abolish by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm .

jedidiah said:

Let's take a look in the B'rit Chadashah.


Luke 1:5-6

5 In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a Cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of ADONAI blamelessly.

I don't see anyone telling Z'kharyah and Elisheva that it is impossible rather we see they observed all of the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai Blamelessly.
They were Blameless in the eyes of Hashem and this was before Messiah died and resurrected.

Let's look at how we show Hashem we love Him, that our hearts are seeking His ways.

John 14:15
15 "If you love me, you will keep my commands;

I think we should also look at Ya'akov's writings.

James 2:14-26

14 What good is it, my brothers, if someone claims to have faith but has no actions to prove it? Is such "faith" able to save him? 15 Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food, 16 and someone says to him, "Shalom! Keep warm and eat hearty!" without giving him what he needs, what good does it do? 17 Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead. 18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that "God is one"? Good for you! The demons believe it too - the thought makes them shudder with fear! 20 But, foolish fellow, do you want to be shown that such "faith" apart from actions is barren? 21 Wasn't Avraham avinu declared righteous because of actions when he offered up his son Yitz'chak on the altar? 22 You see that his faith worked with his actions; by the actions the faith was made complete; 23 and the passage of the Tanakh was fulfilled which says, " Avraham had faith in God, and it was credited to his account as righteousness." He was even called God's friend. 24 You see that a person is declared righteous because of actions and not because of faith alone. 25 Likewise, wasn't Rachav the prostitute also declared righteous because of actions when she welcomed the messengers and sent them out by another route? 26 Indeed, just as the body without a spirit is dead, so too faith without actions is dead.

So we see that faith alone without action is dead just like a body without spirit. Hashem said He was giving Life and Death, Blessings and Curses.
For the commands we don't understand or don't see how they fit into our lives should not be looked at as something to place on the side lines but rather something deeper.
We need to spend time in prayer asking for Hashem to show us how to make it possible.
If we as believers say all things are possible through Hashem why do we place limits on keeping the ? We need to build on that Trust and for me personally sometimes it takes a leap of faith and I am always surprised how amazing Hashem is when He reveals things in His !
Let's take a look at what our Rabbi Yeshua said here in Mark.

Mark 10:17-22

17 As he was starting on his way, a man ran up, kneeled down in front of him and asked, "Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?" 18 Yeshua said to him, "Why are you calling me good? No one is good except God! 19 You know the mitzvot -- `Don't murder, don't commit adultery, don't steal, don't give false testimony, don't defraud, honor your father and mother, .'" 20 "Rabbi," he said, "I have kept all these since I was a boy." 21 Yeshua, looking at him, felt love for him and said to him, "You're missing one thing. Go, sell whatever you own, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!" 22 Shocked by this word, he went away ; because he was a wealthy man.

I think the section of scripture is amazing.
We see Yeshua tell him to keep the , we see the man had been keeping these things already. Then we see a shift we see Yeshua felt love for him and said to him, sell everything and come follow me.
At this point of this man’s life he is at a crossroads. He has the choice to abandon the things of this earth and follow Messiah.
This man could have been a Talmidim of Yeshua and part of His ministry.
He has to make a choice on that day who he will serve.
Put yourself in this position, would you give up everything and follow Messiah? Would you abandon all you have for the sake of Hashem?
We don't see much more about this man in the scripture except that he went away because he was wealthy with worldly possessions.
How often do we give up the narrow path that we know deep in our gut is the right path for the ways of this world?
How often do we abandon the sacrifices of our hearts that were meant to be directed at Hashem? How often do we sacrifice the ways of Hashem (Sabbath, Feast Days, ) on the altar of work?
I think we need to be careful to look at all of scripture before we make a clear comment about a single section of verses. It is always easy to take a single verse and draw a bull’s eye around it. That is why we must look at everything starting with the Foundation, His !
Shalom! Bless and Keep,

Yedidyah

The may seem to you to be a foundation, but it is YHVH’s way of exposing man’s inability to keep the commandments of YHVH.

If the was perfect, and complete at Mount Sinai as commands for men to keep that could be kept faultlessly, why did you need Yeshua?

The wealthy man who walked away from following Yeshua…he said he was keeping the commandments, at least those that Yeshua mentioned…but if you will notice, there was nothing said about keeping the first 3 commandments in all of that, about putting YHVH first. The wealthy man went away sorrowing because He valued (worth-shipped) his wealth more than following Yeshua. That is idolatry, and it is why Yeshua say it was so difficult for the rich to get into the Kingdom, yet even Yeshua said that it was possible.


Mark 10:17-27 (CJB)
17 As he was starting on his way, a man ran up, kneeled down in front of him and asked, “Good rabbi, what should I do to obtain eternal life?”
18 Yeshua said to him, “Why are you calling me good? No one is good except God!
19 You know the mitzvot — ‘Don’t murder, don’t commit adultery, don’t steal, don’t give false testimony, don’t defraud, honor your father and mother,...’”
20 “Rabbi,” he said, “I have kept all these since I was a boy.”
21 Yeshua, looking at him, felt love for him and said to him, “You’re missing one thing. Go, sell whatever you own, give to the poor, and you will have riches in heaven. Then come, follow me!”
22 Shocked by this word, he went away ; because he was a wealthy man.
23 Yeshua looked around and said to his talmidim, “How hard it is going to be for people with wealth to enter the Kingdom of God!”
24 The talmidim were astounded at these words; but Yeshua said to them again, “My friends, how hard it is to enter the Kingdom of God!
25 It’s easier for a camel to pass through a needle’s eye than for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of God.”
26 They were utterly amazed and said to him, “Then who can be saved?”
27 Yeshua looked at them and said, “Humanly, it is impossible, but not with God; with God, everything is possible.”

It is possible through Yeshua to keep the …it is possible through Him alone, now the Temple was literally made of no effect at Yeshua’s death, when the temple doors flew open, and the Veil was torn, noting that separation between YHVH and man was no longer in place. Certainly, it took 40 years for the Temple to be destroyed, but the Levitical means of atonement was gone…no other sacrifice but Yeshua would hence forth be acceptable to YHVH as atonement for sin.

Certainly the can be kept in part…much of it no longer applies, and those mitzvoth in the that can be kept, should be kept, but again, it is not possible for them to be kept perfectly. If it was, Yeshua’s grace would not be needed.

[Yedidyah]

Shalom!
I will answer more of this when I have the time (it is a bit of a long post)
Let's go back to my first point. The Words of Hashem,

Deuteronomy 30:10-19
10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being. 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!



Hashem said this! Who am I to argue with what was written? If He said it was not to hard, it was not to hard.
The covenant that Jeremiah spoke of did not remove the first it just built upon what was already there. Take note of verse 14 above, IT IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU-IN YOUR MOUTH, EVEN IN YOUR HEART. We see it was not fault in the but rather man. For anyone to speak against what the Father wrote as being faulty with what HE himself gave we have to redirect our learning since it does not line up with scripture. One cannot pick the words of man and put them higher than the words of Hashem! Everything must be tested with the . The verses you posted are great but if read through the eyes of the having any fault rather than man then I suggest you re-study the verses again under the viewpoint of what Hashem gave for us already in the verses I already posted.

Shalom!

Yedidyah

Here is a good teaching on the Atonement,
www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/yomkippur_manifoldatonements.pdf

[Questor]

Jan 6, 2014 10:30:39 GMT -8 Yedidyah said:

Shalom!
I will answer more of this when I have the time (it is a bit of a long post)
Let's go back to my first point. The Words of Hashem,

Deuteronomy 30:10-19
10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being. 11 For this mitzvah which I am giving you today is not too hard for you, it is not beyond your reach. 12 It isn't in the sky, so that you need to ask, 'Who will go up into the sky for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 13 Likewise, it isn't beyond the sea, so that you need to ask, 'Who will cross the sea for us, bring it to us and make us hear it, so that we can obey it?' 14 On the contrary, the word is very close to you - in your mouth, even in your heart; therefore, you can do it!



Hashem said this! Who am I to argue with what was written? If He said it was not too hard, it was not too hard.
The covenant that Jeremiah spoke of did not remove the first it just built upon what was already there. Take note of verse 14 above, IT IS VERY CLOSE TO YOU-IN YOUR MOUTH, EVEN IN YOUR HEART. We see it was not fault in the but rather man. For anyone to speak against what the Father wrote as being faulty with what HE himself gave we have to redirect our learning since it does not line up with scripture. One cannot pick the words of man and put them higher than the words of Hashem! Everything must be tested with the . The verses you posted are great but if read through the eyes of the having any fault rather than man then I suggest you re-study the verses again under the viewpoint of what Hashem gave for us already in the verses I already posted.

Shalom!

Yedidyah

Here is a good teaching on the Atonement,
www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/yomkippur_manifoldatonements.pdf

I fully agree that the is without fault...I do not speak against . Nor do I say that cannot be kept, within the parameters of the sacrificial system in the days in which the Holy of Holies stood, whether in the Sanctuary, or in the Two Temples.

And yet, was never kept faultlessly, perfectly, without sin until Yeshua.

The could be kept blamelessly, certainly, and probably often was, because there is no blame for imperfectly performing a mitzvot where the penalty is paid...the atonements and offerings, with a truly repentant heart was the only way of keeping blamelessly. Only YHVH can judge the heart, and I will assume true repentance with the offerings. But they sinned...and they were unable to refrain from sinning, no matter that within the sacrificial system they were held "blameless" for that sin, and held to be judicially without fault in YHVH's eyes for the time that they were able to keep from sinning, and again made the appropriate offerings and sacrifices and true repentance.

Yet as you quoted above, in Deuteronomy 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.




Luke 1:5-6 (CJB)
5 In the days of Herod, King of Y’hudah, there was a Cohen named Z’kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.


Contrary to some Christian theologians, the New Testament teaches that the of Moses offers righteousness. To be considered righteous before God, Zʾkharyah and Elisheva had to love God and fellowman, trust God and believe his word. As evidence of this love and trust they observed all the rules of behavior God had revealed, including those which demanded repentance and a blood sacrifice as a sin offering when they fell short of full obedience. Jewish New Testament Commentary.


Romans 9:30-33 (CJB)
30 So, what are we to say? This: that Gentiles, even though they were not striving for righteousness, have obtained righteousness; but it is a righteousness grounded in trusting!
31 However, Isra’el, even though they kept pursuing a that offers righteousness, did not reach what the offers.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue righteousness as being grounded in trusting but as if it were grounded in doing legalistic works. They stumbled over the stone that makes people stumble.
33 As the Tanakh puts it, “Look, I am laying in Tziyon a stone that will make people stumble, a rock that will trip them up. But he who rests his trust on it will not be humiliated.”


Romans 10:1-21 (CJB)
1 Brothers, my heart’s deepest desire and my prayer to God for Isra’el is for their salvation;
2 for I can testify to their zeal for God. But it is not based on correct understanding;
3 for, since they are unaware of God’s way of making people righteous and instead seek to set up their own, they have not submitted themselves to God’s way of making people righteous.
4 For the goal at which the aims is the Messiah, who offers righteousness to everyone who trusts.
5 For Moshe writes about the righteousness grounded in the that the person who does these things will attain life through them.
6 Moreover, the righteousness grounded in trusting says: “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend to heaven?’” — that is, to bring the Messiah down —
7 or, “‘Who will descend into Sh’ol?’” — that is, to bring the Messiah up from the dead.
8 What, then, does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart.” — that is, the word about trust which we proclaim, namely,
9 that if you acknowledge publicly with your mouth that Yeshua is Lord and trust in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be delivered.
10 For with the heart one goes on trusting and thus continues toward righteousness, while with the mouth one keeps on making public acknowledgement and thus continues toward deliverance.
11 For the passage quoted says that everyone who rests his trust on him will not be humiliated.
12 That means that there is no difference between Jew and Gentile — Adonai is the same for everyone, rich toward everyone who calls on him,
13 since everyone who calls on the name of Adonai will be delivered.
14 But how can they call on someone if they haven’t trusted in him? And how can they trust in someone if they haven’t heard about him? And how can they hear about someone if no one is proclaiming him?
15 And how can people proclaim him unless God sends them? — as the Tanakh puts it, “How beautiful are the feet of those announcing good news about good things!”
16 The problem is that they haven’t all paid attention to the Good News and obeyed it. For Yesha‘yahu says, “Adonai, who has trusted what he has heard from us?”
17 So trust comes from what is heard, and what is heard comes through a word proclaimed about the Messiah.
18 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that they didn’t hear?” No, they did hear — “Their voice has gone out throughout the whole world and their words to the ends of the earth.”
19 “But, I say, isn’t it rather that Isra’el didn’t understand?” “I will provoke you to jealousy over a non-nation, over a nation void of understanding I will make you angry.”
20 Moreover, Yesha‘yahu boldly says, “I was found by those who were not looking for me, I became known to those who did not ask for me”;
21 but to Isra’el he says, “All day long I held out my hands to a people who kept disobeying and contradicting.”


Isaiah 65:1-2 (CJB)
1 “I made myself accessible to those who didn’t ask for me, I let myself be found by those who didn’t seek me. I said, ‘Here I am! Here I am!’ to a nation not called by my name.
2 I spread out my hands all day long to a rebellious people who live in a way that is not good, who follow their own inclinations;


Therefore, if the could be kept, if man could keep the as Yeshua kept the , we would not need Yeshua.

From the days of the sanctuary until the building of the Temple, man's inability to actually keep the faultlessly, perfectly, was still not possible. They could sacrifice, and give offerings, and repent, draw nearer to YHVH, and be relieved of guilt temporarily. And then they would fall short again, for that is the nature of fallen man. We have no ability to obey YHVH perfectly, nor could we draw near Him in the way that we can now with Yeshua, for Yeshua has taken our curse for the sins we have even yet to commit, and YHVH refuses to see our sins...they are cast in the sea of forgetfulness.

The Messianics, Jew or Gentile, who hold to Yeshua AND the , we are doing what was supposed to be done at the first, when the was given...as in Deuteronomy 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.

And yet, we still do all imperfectly. No man is able to keep in his own strength, but only in the righteousness of Yeshua, and the grace of YHVH through the Ruach haKodesh to enable us to do all that we can attempt toward keeping .

And still we are not without sin. There is no righteousness in any of us, except that imputed to us through Yeshua's perfect life, His cursed death on our account, and His resurrection.


Galatians 3:10-14 (CJB)
10 For everyone who depends on legalistic observance of commands lives under a curse, since it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the Scroll of the .”
11 Now it is evident that no one comes to be declared righteous by God through legalism, since “The person who is righteous will attain life by trusting and being faithful.”
12 Furthermore, legalism is not based on trusting and being faithful, but on the text that says, “Anyone who does these things will attain life through them.”
13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.”
14 Yeshua the Messiah did this so that in union with him the Gentiles might receive the blessing announced to Avraham, so that through trusting and being faithful, we might receive what was promised, namely, the Spirit.

6-9 Avraham is the archetypical example of one who trusted and was faithful. Shaʾul picks precisely him because the Judaizers in all likelihood put him forward as their hero and example. Here are three of their points which Shaʾul addresses in these verses:
Legalistically oriented Jews thought of Avraham as the archetypical legalist. They even tried to show that he obeyed the Oral Law—which didn't yet exist! For example, efforts are still made to prove that Avraham followed the rabbinic prohibition against serving milk with meat, even though Avraham, displaying lavish hospitality much like the Bedouins of 4,000 years later, served his three guests butter, milk and a dressed calf (Genesis 18:8). Rabbi Hertz's commentary on the Pentateuch explains it thus: "The verse may be understood as meaning that the guests were given curd and milk to slake their thirst and refresh them (cf. Judges 4:19), and then followed the meal proper, which consisted of the calf. This procedure would be quite in accord with the dietary laws" of the Oral , which allow dairy foods to be served before meat but not with or after it.
Some Jews claimed Avraham as exclusively their father and not father to the Gentiles.
For these two reasons, Jews thought of Avraham as having merit which provided benefits, even salvation, to his descendants. For an example, see Mt 3:9; see also Ro 11:28-29&N.
The notes to the separate verses show how Shaʾul demolishes these counterclaims of the Judaizers.
6 It was the same with Avraham as with Jews and Gentiles today—any legalistic rule-following he might have done availed him nothing. What counted was this: "He trusted in God and was faithful to him, and that was credited to his account as forensic righteousness" (Genesis 15:6; see above, v. 2:16aN). As Shaʾul makes even more clear at Romans 4, no actions which Avraham did apart from trust ever gave him an iota of righteousness-credit in his account with God. This destroys point (1) of vv. 6-9N.
7 This verse takes care of point (2): It is those who live by trusting and being faithful, both Jews and Gentiles, who are really children of Avraham. Even those physically descended from him—that is, Jews—are not truly his children, in the sense of being eligible to receive what God promised them, if they lack trust (see Ro 9:6b&N). Aspects of this idea are developed further in Romans 2 and 4, as well as later in this letter (3:26-4:7, 4:22-31).
8 Point (3), connected with the doctrine of zʾkhut-avot, the "merit of the fathers" (see Ro 11:28-29N), is overturned by this verse, wherein Shaʾul says that God gave a hint (remez, Mt 2:15N) in advance of his universalism (which ultimately found expression in the Good News of Yeshua) by telling Avraham, "In connection with you (Greek en soi, "in you," see 2:17-18N) all the Goyim (Greek ethnê, corresponding to Hebrew goyim, "Gentiles, nations") will be blessed." Thus Genesis 12:1-3, the seminal passage announcing the creation of the Jewish people, is seen by the emissary to the Gentiles as also the seminal passage for the creation of the Body of the Messiah, in which Jews and Gentiles are equal (see v. 28; this theme is elaborated in Ro 3:27-4:25, 9:25-10:21).
9 So the point of vv. 6-9, stated here, is to show that believing Gentiles are already blessed along with Avraham, already his children, because they rely on trusting and being faithful. By trusting and being faithful, they have done as much as Avraham, the father of the Jewish people, did. They have no need to add to their trust and faithfulness an alien culture, no need to become Jews or to observe Jewish rules. However, they, along with Jewish believers, are subject to the real , "the , as upheld by the Messiah" (6:2&N).Jewish New Testament Commentary.


Much is said here on Ahavat Elohim on keeping the Old Covenant , and how important that is...as if keeping the will somehow make us righteous, as opposed to walking out our obedience to YHVH under the gift of Grace to us.

I am looking for the as Yeshua walked it, and to obey it as it is followed in trust in Yeshua, and shown by adherence to the that Yeshua walked out in every step, and movement, and parable.


Much of everything said here at Ahavat Elohim always goes back to what was first written in the five books of , as if the Gentiles must put on the keeping of in the five books of Moshe even though we are not covenanted to do so...and little is said about how Jews and Gentiles both are to put on the New Covenant that both of us are under, in the Grace given in Yeshua.

To me, the Old Covenant is an outward walk, kept by the training in the culture that enwraps Judiasm...a doing of righteousness. This is not wrong...it is merely incomplete.

The New Covenant is both an outward and an inward walk, taking the remainder of Old Covenant that is applicable to Jews and Gentiles since the death of Yeshua, and adding the New Covenant that Yeshua walked.

Where is this ? And why is this not spoken of...a New Covenant ...a completed, exterior and interior ?

[Yedidyah]

"questor" I fully agree that the is without fault...I do not speak against . Nor do I say that cannot be kept, within the parameters of the sacrificial system in the days in which the Holy of Holies stood, whether in the Sanctuary, or in the Two Temples.

And yet, was never kept faultlessly, perfectly, without sin until Yeshua.

I 100% agree! And yet Yeshua did not have to do 100% of the because He did not sin. Yeshua did not sin but as fallen man we do still sin and that sin separates us from Hashem. shows us what is sin and still does to this day, anyone who boast about keeping any commands and picks and chooses what commands they want to follow is not keeping . The given on Mount Sinai was GRACE and their is no "New" for Gentiles.

"questor" Yet as you quoted above, in Deuteronomy 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.


Luke 1:5-6 (CJB)
5 In the days of Herod, King of Y’hudah, there was a Cohen named Z’kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva.
6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of Adonai blamelessly.


Contrary to some Christian theologians, the New Testament teaches that the of Moses offers righteousness. To be considered righteous before God, Zʾkharyah and Elisheva had to love God and fellowman, trust God and believe his word. As evidence of this love and trust they observed all the rules of behavior God had revealed, including those which demanded repentance and a blood sacrifice as a sin offering when they fell short of full obedience. Jewish New Testament Commentary.

I again would agree with that.

"questor"
From the days of the sanctuary until the building of the Temple, man's inability to actually keep the faultlessly, perfectly, was still not possible. They could sacrifice, and give offerings, and repent, draw nearer to YHVH, and be relieved of guilt temporarily. And then they would fall short again, for that is the nature of fallen man. We have no ability to obey YHVH perfectly, nor could we draw near Him in the way that we can now with Yeshua, for Yeshua has taken our curse for the sins we have even yet to commit, and YHVH refuses to see our sins...they are cast in the sea of forgetfulness.

Hashem does see our sins and that is a false ideology. I challenge your viewpoint because it needs to be made clear that is a false doctrine. Please read the verses below.

"Hebrews 10:26-28
26 For if we deliberately continue to sin after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but only the terrifying prospect of Judgment, of raging fire that will consume the enemies.

28 Someone who disregards the of Moshe is put to death without mercy on the word of two or three witnesses. 29 Think how much worse will be the punishment deserved by someone who has trampled underfoot the Son of God; who has treated as something common the blood of the covenant[c] which made him holy; and who has insulted the Spirit, giver of God’s grace!"

So if one keeps on sinning after coming to the truth of what sin is (THE ) the sacrifice, the atonement given on Yom Kippur through the blood of Yeshua our Messiah becomes void and how much worse is it going to be for those who have treated something common;the blood of Messiah that makes them HOLY. How much more of an insult to the Spirit, giver of grace than that of saying their is no more sin seen by Hashem.
To ignore sin is to walk in a false security of what you see sin as in your own eyes. I have said this before, the is not a store where you go through with your shopping cart and place the mitzvot you want to keep in your cart and check out with the rest still on the shelves.

"questor"
The Messianics, Jew or Gentile, who hold to Yeshua AND the , we are doing what was supposed to be done at the first, when the was given...as in Deuteronomy 30:10 "However, all this will happen only if you pay attention to what ADONAI your God says, so that you obey his mitzvot and regulations which are written in this book of the , if you turn to ADONAI your God with all your heart and all your being.

And yet, we still do all imperfectly. No man is able to keep in his own strength, but only in the righteousness of Yeshua, and the grace of YHVH through the Ruach haKodesh to enable us to do all that we can attempt toward keeping .

I again agree.

"questor"
Galatians 3:10-14 (CJB)
10 For everyone who depends on legalistic observance of commands lives under a curse, since it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not keep on doing everything written in the Scroll of the .”
11 Now it is evident that no one comes to be declared righteous by God through legalism, since “The person who is righteous will attain life by trusting and being faithful.”
12 Furthermore, legalism is not based on trusting and being faithful, but on the text that says, “Anyone who does these things will attain life through them.”
13 The Messiah redeemed us from the curse pronounced in the by becoming cursed on our behalf; for the Tanakh says, “Everyone who hangs from a stake comes under a curse.”
14 Yeshua the Messiah did this so that in union with him the Gentiles might receive the blessing announced to Avraham, so that through trusting and being faithful, we might receive what was promised, namely, the Spirit.

Please read.
www.synagoguechm.com/articles/galations.pdf

"questor"
Much is said here on Ahavat Elohim on keeping the Old Covenant , and how important that is...as if keeping the will somehow make us righteous, as opposed to walking out our obedience to YHVH under the gift of Grace to us.

I am looking for the as Yeshua walked it, and to obey it as it is followed in trust in Yeshua, and shown by adherence to the that Yeshua walked out in every step, and movement, and parable.

So I ask you this, is following Messiah only for the Jews? How did Messiah walk? He kept the perfectly so I don't care what background you have if you are trying to follow Messiah without the foundation of His then you are following a messiah that has been created to fit your comfort zone.

"questor"
Much of everything said here at Ahavat Elohim always goes back to what was first written in the five books of , as if the Gentiles must put on the keeping of in the five books of Moshe even though we are not covenanted to do so...and little is said about how Jews and Gentiles both are to put on the New Covenant that both of us are under, in the Grace given in Yeshua.

To me, the Old Covenant is an outward walk, kept by the training in the culture that enwraps Judiasm...a doing of righteousness. This is not wrong...it is merely incomplete.

There is no separate covenant for Gentiles! There is ONE Covenant that has been built upon from the time of Avraham. There is no Gentile Covenant that has been made separate from these promises. One is grafted into the original tree or they are grafted into their own doctrine that will not survive without the Roots that supply life!

"Romans 11:17-19

17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you — a wild olive — were grafted in among them and have become equal sharers in the rich root of the olive tree, 18 then don’t boast as if you were better than the branches! However, if you do boast, remember that you are not supporting the root, the root is supporting you. 19 So you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 True, but so what? They were broken off because of their lack of trust. However, you keep your place only because of your trust. So don’t be arrogant; on the contrary, be terrified!"

BE TERRIFIED not to be arrogant and boast against the original branches. If one does boast know that you need to be humble since you are not supporting the root. Yisrael fell when it did not place it's trust in Hashem. To be grafted in one is removing their old roots and choosing to be supported by something that was not their own "background" The Gentiles coming into the Faith were always sent to the Synagogues to learn the ways of Moshe.

"Acts 15:21-28

21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”

22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers, 23 with the following letter:

From: The emissaries and the elders, your brothers

To: The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia

Greetings!

24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds. 25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul, 26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah. 27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.

28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements: 29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing.

Shalom!"

Some will try to use Acts 15 to say that is all Gentiles coming into the faith should do. Under that kind of thinking they are simply not looking at what is clearly written. What does the verses start with, They are already hearing the being READ EVERY SHABBAT. So they are already going to learn what the calls sin. So for them to understand what they are hearing and as first steps of TRUSTING they must start eating right. Interesting that the biggest issue is not whether or not they will be hearing the but rather that they should eat right so that they can understand and do what is being read in the . There was not a Gentile church and the Jewish Synagogue they were all together and in history it was not until the church became arrogant and started their own separate church. We all know where that has led. The fruit speaks for itself.

"questor"
The New Covenant is both an outward and an inward walk, taking the remainder of Old Covenant that is applicable to Jews and Gentiles since the death of Yeshua, and adding the New Covenant that Yeshua walked.

Where is this ? And why is this not spoken of...a New Covenant ...a completed, exterior and interior ?

This is in no way a "NEW" . It was always to be an inward walk. What is inside will be revealed through the outside. Look at people who get into witchcraft and the goth scene. We see someone who is hurting on the inside and there is an outward appearance that shows everyone else the darkness that is buried inside. Yeshua came and breathed life back into the ! He showed us how to walk it and came as the perfect servant laying down His own life for our iniquities. Now that we have that why would anyone want to separate themselves from the root and think they can survive on their own? To teach that Jews and Gentiles have a separate of any kind is Legalistic observance of .
The debate is so easily placed to an end when most who claim this have never gotten a DNA test to see if they are Jewish. If they really believed such doctrine there would have to be a DNA test to see what one must follow. It is purely a doctrine of demons.

[Deleted]

How can anyone determine that a DNA test proves rather one is Jewish or comes from Jewish linage?

[alon]

Jan 7, 2014 18:10:15 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

How can anyone determine that a DNA test proves rather one is Jewish or comes from Jewish linage?

My opinion- it doesn't matter! One is heir to the promises made to the Jews if God says they are, and they are not if He says they are not.

As for DNA proving you have had a Jew in your gene pool at some time- it doesn't matter! If you were not raised in the Jewish faith; did not have a Jewish experience growing up; don't think like a Jewish person; what does it mean even if you "look Jewish" or identify with Judaism? You're not truly Jewish and cannot pretend to be otherwise amongst Jews for very long. Just like most Jews today have picked up a gentile gene or two along the centuries. Does that make them gentiles?

Either can convert, but in both cases that involves a process, not just a decision; and I don't care what mainstream doctrine says on this point.

My advice to anyone wanting to find out if they have Jewish genes is that the money would be better spent on Jewish relief or missions. If we truly want to identify with the Jewish people, then we should have a burden for the fact that Israel as well as Jews worldwide are coming under siege more each day. They are being isolated and experiencing prejudice, which historically leads to persecution, more and more by "Christian" countries and people. If we don't stand by them financially and verbally right now, the DNA test would be a waste regardless of the outcome. Again, God says who is righteous and heirs to the promises.

I can't buy my way into heaven, but I can spend what little money I have wisely. DNA testing just doesn't seem very wise to me as it won't mean a thing when we stand and give account before God.

Rant over- take it for what it's worth.

Dan C

[alon]

Jan 7, 2014 4:11:29 GMT -8 Questor said:

... To me, the Old Covenant is an outward walk, kept by the training in the culture that enwraps Judiasm...a doing of righteousness. This is not wrong...it is merely incomplete.

The New Covenant is both an outward and an inward walk, taking the remainder of Old Covenant that is applicable to Jews and Gentiles since the death of Yeshua, and adding the New Covenant that Yeshua walked.

Where is this ? And why is this not spoken of...a New Covenant ...a completed, exterior and interior ?

Questor, honestly I just skim long posts like you've been putting up. I agree with much I see you say, however some things just leap out as wrong. The part quoted is one of them.

"This " should not be spoken of, because it doesn't exist! It is a Renewed Covenant, not a New Covenant. And God always looked inward, not to the outward. God does not change, and salvation has always been by grace through trust in Him. Was Avraham not justified by his trust in God when he placed his only heir to the promise on the alter? That is an inward condition evidenced by outward works. It is the same today, unless like so many Christians we wish to discount the entire book of James.

Dan C

[Yedidyah]

Jan 7, 2014 21:49:26 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 7, 2014 18:10:15 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

How can anyone determine that a DNA test proves rather one is Jewish or comes from Jewish linage?

My opinion- it doesn't matter! One is heir to the promises made to the Jews if God says they are, and they are not if He says they are not.

Shalom!
That is my point, we do not need a DNA test to know what we are grafted into Jewish or Gentile background, all who who choose to follow the walking breathing example of ;our Messiah are grafted into the same roots. Then it does not matter for the same that was given to the MIXED Multitude on mount Sinai is the same for all of Hashem's Children. Adonai gave redemption through grace and has built upon that grace throughout the B'rit Hadasha and will continue even farther. Everyone is Heirs to the SAME promise! Baruch Hashem!
There is not a separate set of rules for the adopted children in a home. If we all take hold to the promises and act out what is asked of us then there is only us making the choices of who we follow. With such choices we can pursue holiness or we can pursue what the world has to offer.
I choose to search out the ways of Hashem's Kingdom and in trusting Him I work on abandoning the things of this world more and more each day.
It really comes down to surrendering our own ideas and pursuing His. Baruch Hashem we have a guide He left us with all the tools we just have to learn to use them. Shavua Tov! Good Week!

Yedidyah

[Questor]

Thank you all for responding.

Yedediah, It will take me a bit of time to reply, but I have received some answers that I hoped to find. Please have patience with me, as I do not seek conflict, but discernment of how Jews see Messiah, and how to follow Him, as opposed to Christians seeing Messiah and following Him.

Alon...I post all the Scripture and other scholarly text for my arguments so that I can stress what I am looking at in the text very specifically, with the context available for reading easily, in the hope that others may understand my point.

I am sorry to hear that you think the posts are long...perhaps too long except for skimming. It robs me of your reasoned imput, for I am not looking for quick, snappy answers. I find some postings here to be a trifle thin when they do not explain what the poster means when they are really looking for the meat of the matter, and not just posting for debate's sake, or to quickly answer a question. I do not wish to debate...I am at most explaining what I am seeing, and then asking what other's see, so that I may explore their understanding.

In an attempt to make it easier to avoid the text unless you, and others, really wish to read it, I will distinguish my personal thoughts in another color as well as a different font in order to help you skip over what is the underlying basis for my argument or statement or question.

[Questor]

Jan 7, 2014 22:37:09 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 7, 2014 4:11:29 GMT -8 Questor said:

... To me, the Old Covenant is an outward walk, kept by the training in the culture that enwraps Judiasm...a doing of righteousness. This is not wrong...it is merely incomplete.

The New Covenant is both an outward and an inward walk, taking the remainder of Old Covenant that is applicable to Jews and Gentiles since the death of Yeshua, and adding the New Covenant that Yeshua walked.

Where is this ? And why is this not spoken of...a New Covenant ...a completed, exterior and interior ?

Questor, honestly I just skim long posts like you've been putting up. I agree with much I see you say, however some things just leap out as wrong. The part quoted is one of them.

"This " should not be spoken of, because it doesn't exist! It is a Renewed Covenant, not a New Covenant. And God always looked inward, not to the outward. God does not change, and salvation has always been by grace through trust in Him. Was Avraham not justified by his trust in God when he placed his only heir to the promise on the alter? That is an inward condition evidenced by outward works. It is the same today, unless like so many Christians we wish to discount the entire book of James.

Dan C

Since I do not discount the book of James, nor seek to avoid any of the Mitsvot that apply to me, I must not be describing my ideas in a way they could be understood. I am troubled with what James, at the Jerusalem council said was to be required of Gentiles in regard to the Mitsvot, because I cannot explain the matter to those Christians that I know that are not seeking instruction from the Tanakh, and listening only to what their Pastors tell them.

Legalism is what is dreaded by Christians, but I interpret legalism as following the Mishna and the Talmud as opposed to the simplest understanding of the where it binds traditions into religion. I also interpret legalism from the Christian beliefs where Commentaries are used to oppose, or twist the plain reading of the The Brit Chadashah.

As for a Renewed Covenant, that is man's way of describing the action of the changes that brought about in us by Grace, and the Indwelling of the Ruach haKodesh.


Jeremiah 31:31-33 (KJV)
31 Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

[alon]

Jan 8, 2014 3:08:20 GMT -8 Questor said:

... Alon...I post all the Scripture and other scholarly text for my arguments so that I can stress what I am looking at in the text very specifically, with the context available for reading easily, in the hope that others may understand my point.

I am sorry to hear that you think the posts are long...perhaps too long except for skimming. It robs me of your reasoned imput, for I am not looking for quick, snappy answers. I find some postings here to be a trifle thin when they do not explain what the poster means when they are really looking for the meat of the matter, and not just posting for debate's sake, or to quickly answer a question. I do not wish to debate...I am at most explaining what I am seeing, and then asking what other's see, so that I may explore their understanding. ...

Sorry if that sounded critical. It's me that's the problem. Not getting much sleep and I can't focus that long or absorb that much information all at once.

Dan C

[Yedidyah]

Shalom!
So on the verses from Jeremiah is a great addition to this conversation. Is it "New" Or is it "Renewed"
The word can be used as new, new thing, fresh, The word is Chadash in Hebrew. Strongs H2319 if someone wants to look it up to cross reference what I posted

We know that many covenants have been made throughout the scriptures but those covenants have always built upon the first.
The covenant was always for Israel and those who wished to join that covenant, look at Ruth.
The verse from Jeremiah is still for today since much of what it talks about has yet to happen.


Jeremiah 31:31-38 (Complete Jewish Bible)

31 "Here, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Isra'el and with the house of Y'hudah. 32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers on the day I took them by their hand and brought them out of the land of Egypt; because they, for their part, violated my covenant, even though I, for my part, was a husband to them," says ADONAI. 33 "For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Isra'el after those days," says ADONAI: "I will put my within them and write it on their hearts; I will be their God, and they will be my people. 34 No longer will any of them teach his fellow community member or his brother, 'Know ADONAI'; for all will know me, from the least of them to the greatest; because I will forgive their wickednesses and remember their sins no more." 35 This is what ADONAI says, who gives the sun as light for the day, who ordained the laws for the moon and stars to provide light for the night, who stirs up the sea until its waves rorar -- ADONAI-Tzva'ot is his name: 36 "If these laws leave my presence," says ADONAI, "then the offspring of Isra'el will stop being a nation in my presence forever." 37 This is what ADONAI says: "If the sky above can be measured and the foundations of the earth be fathomed, then I will reject all the offspring of Isra'el for all that they have done," says ADONAI. 38 "Look, the days are coming," says ADONAI, "when the city will be rebuilt for ADONAI from the Tower of Hanan'el to the Corner Gate.

Much of what is spoken here is still a future promise. The day all this comes to be past will be a Great day!
The mainstream church teaches that this has all be fulfilled yet they still are doing outreach ministry trying to let their "Brothers" know who Adonai is. Does everyone know 'Know Adonai', clearly there is future promises here. A pattern I notice is when Hashem speaks judgement or forgiveness in the scriptures there is much of the time references to how great He is.
We see in verse 35-36
"This is what ADONAI says, who gives the sun as light for the day, who ordained the laws for the moon and stars to provide light for the night, who stirs up the sea until its waves rorar -- ADONAI-Tzva'ot is his name: 36 "If these laws leave my presence," says ADONAI, "then the offspring of Isra'el will stop being a nation in my presence forever."

Why does the Bible repeat the same things over and over again, why do we see reminders of how powerful Hashem is; because we are stubborn people and we need to be reminded over and over again who we serve.
Look at how many times we are reminded of being slaves in Egypt, Example below
Deuteronomy 5:15
15 You are to remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and ADONAI your God brought you out from there with a strong hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore ADONAI your God has ordered you to keep the day of Shabbat.

Most of the time (Not all) the generations being spoken to were never in Egypt, or were they?
We all have our "Egypt" it changes person to person but if we look at what Egypt stood for in the and Scriptures we see it being used in a metaphorical state.
My Jewish ancestors really came out of Egypt so why do I have to remember that?
I have to remember that so I can relate to what is Egypt in my life, what part of Egypt am I holding onto.
And if I choose to take hold of the outstretched arm and allow through His mite (not my own) I can be pulled from Egypt in a "Spiritual Sense"
It does not matter what tree your roots came from to begin with, we are all grafted into the same stock of promises.
We all take our much needed nutrients from the same Roots!

Shalom Everyone!
Bless and Keep,

Yedidyah

[Deleted]

Alon and Yedidyah,

I agree to your response to my posting. When I asked this question I was sort of being sarcastic. For the simple reason that many Gentile believers who have been into Christianity for many years, believed and even taught that for one who converted to Judaism becomes a Jew. Yet now these same Christians who saw the truth of the , all of a sudden decide they are now Jewish. So they go and ask their family members if they are Jewish or have come from Jewish linage or if they have Jewish blood. And then for them to go to the lengths to get a DNA test to prove that they are Jewish? This is where my sarcasm came in.

I have a friend who for many years was into the Reformed teachings, such as Calvinism and such. It was several years ago the husband decided the was true. Which is fine. But he is now going around stating that he is Jewish, when we all know and his wife knows that he is not. He gets angry when we tell him that because he is following the does not make him Jewish.

Yet there are many Christians, including my husband that states or teaches that if one was a Christian and they come under the law then they are now considered Jewish.

Yedidyah, with this last statement that I just mentioned that anyone who converts or becomes Observant is considered now Jewish? And I remember asking you if Ruth was considered Jewish when she chose to follow after Naomi's and the Israelite's God. I believe your statement was yes. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

I am asking for better understanding on this issue. Does one who converts or obeys God's laws now become Jewish? I know there are probably tons of postings with this regard, however I have limited time. I am slowly going through the posts.

All I am asking for is patience in my learning. And if this requires another posting then please let me know or direct me to the right one.

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Jan 8, 2014 10:35:57 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... Yedidyah, with this last statement that I just mentioned that anyone who converts or becomes Observant is considered now Jewish? And I remember asking you if Ruth was considered Jewish when she chose to follow after Naomi's and the Israelite's God. I believe your statement was yes. Correct me if I am wrong on this.

I am asking for better understanding on this issue. Does one who converts or obeys God's laws now become Jewish? I know there are probably tons of postings with this regard, however I have limited time. I am slowly going through the posts. ...

Ruth joined herself to Israel, which at the time was how one was saved. She put her trust and hope in the God of Israel, as evidenced by her staying with her mother-in-law even when it looked like they were going to starve. There was a complete repentance, a turning away from the gods of her people. So it was still by Gods grace and through her trust in Him. But Israel was called to be His light in the darkness at that time; so in order to find salvation you had to go to His source, Israel.

Dan C

[Questor]

Jan 8, 2014 3:43:56 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 8, 2014 3:08:20 GMT -8 Questor said:

... Alon...I post all the Scripture and other scholarly text for my arguments so that I can stress what I am looking at in the text very specifically, with the context available for reading easily, in the hope that others may understand my point.

I am sorry to hear that you think the posts are long...perhaps too long except for skimming. It robs me of your reasoned imput, for I am not looking for quick, snappy answers. I find some postings here to be a trifle thin when they do not explain what the poster means when they are really looking for the meat of the matter, and not just posting for debate's sake, or to quickly answer a question. I do not wish to debate...I am at most explaining what I am seeing, and then asking what other's see, so that I may explore their understanding. ...

Sorry if that sounded critical. It's me that's the problem. Not getting much sleep and I can't focus that long or absorb that much information all at once.

Dan C

Not critical at all in my eyes, Alon. I wished merely to explain why my posts are likely to be well backed up with Scripture to show the context, and then highlighting what is pertinent. I also do want people to give imput, so I will seek extra ways to point out what I write, and continue bolding the pertinent verse that needs to be seen.