On Torah and Grace

[Questor]

"questor"


Much is said here on Ahavat Elohim on keeping the Old Covenant , and how important that is...as if keeping the in a faulty human way will somehow make us righteous, as opposed to walking out our obedience to YHVH under the gift of Grace to us. Keeping the of the Old Covenant could provide righteousness under Temple observance, but cannot now...not without the sacrifices and atones. Since 30 AD, Yeshua provides righteousness.

I am looking for the as Yeshua walked it, and spoke about, and to obey the commandments in the Tanakh, and in the Brit Chadashah as it is followed in trust in Yeshua, and shown by adherence to the that Yeshua walked out in every step, and movement, and parable.

So I ask you this, is following Messiah only for the Jews? How did Messiah walk? He kept the perfectly so I don't care what background you have if you are trying to follow Messiah without the foundation of His then you are following a messiah that has been created to fit your comfort zone.

You have mistaken my point. Yeshua asked for obedience in the all the matters of the , bute also byond the of the Old Covenant.

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1 Peter 1:13-25 (CJB)
13 Therefore, get your minds ready for work, keep yourselves under control, and fix your hopes fully on the gift you will receive when Yeshua the Messiah is revealed.
14 As people who obey God, do not let yourselves be shaped by the evil desires you used to have when you were still ignorant.
15 On the contrary, following the Holy One who called you, become holy yourselves in your entire way of life;
16 since the Tanakh says, “You are to be holy because I am holy.”
17 Also, if you are addressing as Father the one who judges impartially according to each person’s actions, you should live out your temporary stay on earth in fear.
18 You should be aware that the ransom paid to free you from the worthless way of life which your fathers passed on to you did not consist of anything perishable like silver or gold;
19 on the contrary, it was the costly bloody sacrificial death of the Messiah, as of a lamb without defect or spot.
20 God knew him before the founding of the universe, but revealed him in the acharit-hayamim for your sakes.
21 Through him you trust in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory; so that your trust and hope are in God.
22 Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth, so that you have a sincere love for your brothers, love each other deeply, with all your heart.
23 You have been born again not from some seed that will decay, but from one that cannot decay, through the living Word of God that lasts forever.
24 For all humanity is like grass, all its glory is like a wildflower — the grass withers, and the flower falls off;
25 but the Word of Adonai lasts forever. Moreover, this Word is the Good News which has been proclaimed to you.

1 Peter 2:1-3 (CJB)
1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice, of all deceit, hypocrisy and envy, and of all the ways there are of speaking against people;
2 and be like newborn babies, thirsty for the pure milk of the Word; so that by it, you may grow up into deliverance.
3 For you have tasted that Adonai is good.

2 Peter 1:5-11 (KJV)

5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;
6 And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
7 And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
8 For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

Matthew 5:3-12 (KJV)
3 Blessed are the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are they that mourn: for they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek: for they shall inherit the earth.
6 Blessed are they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness: for they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful: for they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.
10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
11 Blessed are ye, when men shall revile you, and persecute you, and shall say all manner of evil against you falsely, for my sake.
12 Rejoice, and be exceeding glad: for great is your reward in heaven: for so persecuted they the prophets which were before you.


I do not see people talking about the way to live in the …and much of what the Apostles taught, they taught to Jews. They had already had the taught to them, and read to them every year in the synagogues. No one speaks of the change the Ruach haKodesh engenders in us, because you think it is for the world to come, the Olam Haba, when His work is really done in us daily, to transform us into the likeness of Messiah. No one talks about what they personally are working on with YHVH, but only how important is tothem...everything being based in , like lawyers disputing in a court as to what is right or not.

It's very Rabbinical, particularly when the Mishna and Talmud are automatically included, which if you were raised Conservative or Orthodox is automatically inculcated into you.

The New Covenant addition to the is not about the study of laws, except to of course keep them, it is about the changing of the heart and mind through the Grace of YHVH through the Ruach haKodesh

Much of what Yeshua taught was not about just following the , it was how to live in a more and more godly manner. And the is written on our hearts, and grace given to us through Yeshua so that we might do more than just the given in Deuteronomy. The commandment that I see added to the is in how to think, and what to do among the Believers in Yeshua.

[Deleted]

Hi Alon,

I agree with your last posting and this is my belief also. However there are some who believe that she became Jewish. But than what does one call or how does one define a Jewish person today? There are many non-believing Jews. Some are atheists. Are they still considered God's chosen people? Because I know there is several verses in the bible that state that if ANYONE who trusts in God, obeys Him and His laws are considered His chosen people and these will be the ones who will spend eternity with Him. And for the life of me I cannot find the verses, I will come across them sooner or later.

Now please understand that I am not knocking anyone here for being Jewish, nor is it my intention of being offensive or rude or disrespectful in any way. Father God sees my heart.

Moriah Ruth

[Yedidyah]

Questor said, everything being based in , like lawyers disputing in a court as to what is right or not.

If you cannot base it on you are teaching a different gospel and that is prohibited here.

Questor said,It's very Rabbinical, particularly when the Mishna and Talmud are automatically included, which if you were raised Conservative or Orthodox is automatically inculcated into you.

Where have we placed Talmud on par with ? Again you said you are not wanting to argue or debate but that seems to be not the case.

Questor said,
The New Covenant addition to the is not about the study of laws, except to of course keep them, it is about the changing of the heart and mind through the Grace of YHVH through the Ruach haKodesh

I think you should re-read your own post it contradicts within itself. Again all of this has already been discussed! It deserves no more time after this post I am no longer going to be commenting because this is clearly not you wanting to learn but rather you came here wanting to change the way we run the forum. Not going to happen.

Questor said, Much of what Yeshua taught was not about just following the , it was how to live in a more and more godly manner. And the is written on our hearts, and grace given to us through Yeshua so that we might do more than just the given in Deuteronomy. The commandment that I see added to the is in how to think, and what to do among the Believers in Yeshua.

If the is written on ones heart it will manifest in their attitude towards the and Hashem. If one is attacking the while saying it is still for today that person does not have the written on their heart. Grace does not give permission to pervert scripture to our own liking. That is following ones own intuition and in doing so building themselves up in their own mind as an idol. As that idol type thinking gives permission to remove the Words of Hashem and replace them with what "They" think is better. Like I said before this has already been discussed and you still have not shown any signs of wanting a biblical conversation but rather teaching a false gospel. This is why it is so important to "Study" those "Laws" you spoke against. Let me show you why,

Deuteronomy 4:2

2 In order to obey the mitzvot of Adonai your God which I am giving you, do not add to what I am saying, and do not subtract from it.

What you have done is make Yeshua out to have broken by adding to it, which He indeed did not.

[Yedidyah]

Questor said,
I do not see people talking about the way to live in the …and much of what the Apostles taught, they taught to Jews. They had already had the taught to them, and read to them every year in the synagogues. No one speaks of the change the Ruach haKodesh engenders in us, because you think it is for the world to come, the Olam Haba, when His work is really done in us daily, to transform us into the likeness of Messiah. No one talks about what they personally are working on with YHVH,

I don't know what you are reading but that is clearly not the case. Just to be clear here, I did not say the Ruach Hakodesh was not for today, that is a perversion of what I said and it had been clearly underlined for you to read in Jeremiah. I said not all of it was fulfilled.

The Ruach Hakodesh is a guide and enables us to do more than we could have alone. The Ruach Hakodesh is not something new and can be found in the foundation "" until even now within our daily walks. Just like Messiah is not something new but can also be found in the foundation.


Ecclesiastes 12:13

13 Here is the final conclusion, now that you have heard everything: fear God, and keep his mitzvot; this is what being human is all about.

Shalom,

Yedidyah

[Questor]

Yedidiah, I am not trying to debate you, or anyone. I am looking for clarity.

Everything that I have said in all the postings on this thread is taught under what is called Christian Belief, and may indeed be a doctrine of demons.  I am stating what I see, both here on this forum, and in the world, and I'm sure it is confusing to you because it is confusing to me.

That is why I am here.

I am here to get correction on the things I note which are out of line according to Messianic Jewish belief, where a Jew, well taught in Judaism…Rabbinical Judaism…comes to belief in Yeshua, or where one grows up in a Messianic Congregation under someone who grew up as a Jew, well taught in Judaism…Rabbinical Judaism…comes to belief in Yeshua.

I am pointing out with as much clarity and textual backing what is called Christian Belief so that I can answer everything my Christians friends say, or have learned, as well as what I have learned from studying centuries of Christian commentary and analysis.

I know many Christian beliefs and  teachings are way out of whack with Judaism…I am trying to see where the Messianic Jews stand on their understanding of the Brit Chadashah. I already know where Messianic Jews stand on the Tanakh…but if you began in Judaism, or were raised in that culture, you have all the trappings of the Sages tied into your minds. I read some of the things that Rambam wrote, and wonder if the man was insane, because it all fits inside a culture I can never learn, knowing even so, that Rambam is commenting on commentaries, and that I do even not understand what the underlying texts are.

Christians feel a great deal of angst about legalism, and the idea that if one follows the Law, rather than Grace, that person is in error. Oddly, they are referring to Orthodox Greek and Roman Christian teachings as much as they are to the .

To many Christian Believers that are not Messianic Jews, keeping a Covenant that they were not born into, nor adopted prior to their commitment to Yeshua, is not required of them, because they are Gentiles. For good Scriptural reason, they think the should not concern them. Most Christians take what Yeshua said in John 13:34  as the 11th commandment, and that the Ten Commandments are not exactly Law. They think the other mitzvot in the are purely Temple related, or Culturally Jewish, and do not apply to them.

John 13:34 (CJB)
34 “I am giving you a new command: that you keep on loving each other. In the same way that I have loved you, you are also to keep on loving each other.

Most Christians believe that all adherence to Law is not required for Gentiles because of what James said in Acts 15:28.

Acts 15:4-29 (CJB)
4 On arrival in Yerushalayim, they were welcomed by the Messianic community, including the emissaries and the elders; and they reported what God had done through them.
5 But some of those who had come to trust were from the party of the P’rushim; and they stood up and said, “It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the of Moshe.”
6 The emissaries and the elders met to look into this matter.
7 After lengthy debate, Kefa got up and said to them, “Brothers, you yourselves know that a good while back, God chose me from among you to be the one by whose mouth the Goyim should hear the message of the Good News and come to trust.
8 And God, who knows the heart, bore them witness by giving the Ruach HaKodesh to them, just as he did to us;
9 that is, he made no distinction between us and them, but cleansed their heart by trust.
10 So why are you putting God to the test now by placing a yoke on the neck of the talmidim which neither our fathers nor we have had the strength to bear?
11 No, it is through the love and kindness of the Lord Yeshua that we trust and are delivered — and it’s the same with them.”
12 Then the whole assembly kept still as they listened to Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul tell what signs and miracles God had done through them among the Gentiles.
13 Ya‘akov broke the silence to reply. “Brothers,” he said, “hear what I have to say.
14 Shim‘on has told in detail what God did when he first began to show his concern for taking from among the Goyim a people to bear his name.
15 And the words of the Prophets are in complete harmony with this for it is written,
16 ‘“After this, I will return; and I will rebuild the fallen tent of David. I will rebuild its ruins, I will restore it,
17 so that the rest of mankind may seek the Lord, that is, all the Goyim who have been called by my name,”
18 says Adonai, who is doing these things.’ All this has been known for ages.
19 “Therefore, my opinion is that we should not put obstacles in the way of the Goyim who are turning to God.
20 Instead, we should write them a letter telling them to abstain from things polluted by idols, from fornication, from what is strangled and from blood.
21 For from the earliest times, Moshe has had in every city those who proclaim him, with his words being read in the synagogues every Shabbat.”
22 Then the emissaries and the elders, together with the whole Messianic community, decided to select men from among themselves to send to Antioch with Sha’ul and Bar-Nabba. They sent Y’hudah, called Bar-Sabba, and Sila, both leading men among the brothers,
23 with the following letter:
From:The emissaries and the elders, your brothers
To:The brothers from among the Gentiles throughout Antioch, Syria and Cilicia:
Greetings!
24 We have heard that some people went out from among us without our authorization, and that they have upset you with their talk, unsettling your minds.
25 So we have decided unanimously to select men and send them to you with our dear friends Bar-Nabba and Sha’ul,
26 who have dedicated their lives to upholding the name of our Lord, Yeshua the Messiah.
27 So we have sent Y’hudah and Sila, and they will confirm in person what we are writing.
28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing. Shalom! 


I am being led to observe some things in the , and to seek more deeply in all the scriptures.

I also believe that Grace trumps the Law, but that Yeshua requires every effort to keep the Law to the extent applies to you, in obedience to YHVH.




What do you think?


I will answer the other statements you have made, one by one, so that we do not get into more mis-understandings.

[alon]

Jan 9, 2014 22:59:45 GMT -8 Questor said:

... I know many Christian beliefs and  teachings are way out of whack with Judaism…I am trying to see where the Messianic Jews stand on their understanding of the Brit Chadashah....

The real problem is they are way out of line with scripture, and more and more they are realizing this. Christians are not willing to let go of their "traditions" any more than Jews are; however I am involved with three mainstream ministries that are so close to Messianism it is crazy that they don't make it over that "traditional" hurdle and convert! But trust me, there is a huge movement to bring mainstream folk back to 1st cen. thought and action.

Christians feel a great deal of angst about legalism, and the idea that if one follows the Law, rather than Grace, that person is in error. ... To many Christian Believers that are not Messianic Jews, keeping a Covenant that they were not born into, nor adopted prior to their commitment to Yeshua, is not required of them, because they are Gentiles. For good Scriptural reason, they think the should not concern them. Most Christians take what Yeshua said in John 13:34  as the 11th commandment, and that the Ten Commandments are not exactly Law. They think the other mitzvot in the are purely Temple related, or Culturally Jewish, and do not apply to them

Except for the part about there being "good Scriptural reason" for their disobedience, I agree withwhat you say.

If one believes there were only ten commandments which are applicable from the "O-o-old" part of their Bible, then I suppose that passage would appear to be the 11th commandment. Their problem is that this verse in no way even hints at negaiting any other commandment! And by the way, some translations have this as "John 13:34 (ISR) A renewed command I give you, that you love one another ..."

... Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing ...

This is a starting point for new converts, so that they may enter fellowship but not be overburdened by too much at once. It is not the only requirement, or instruction. Even their stubborn holding to "only the Ten" is evidence of this!

... I also believe that Grace trumps the Law, but that Yeshua requires every effort to keep the Law to the extent applies to you, in obedience to YHVH.

The "Law" (more accurately instructions) is Gods grace in action. The Law never saved anyone, as "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." It was given because we needed to know, to personally and experientially understand this. Then we can appreciate why and how He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him time and again. This of course culminated in the death of His Son so that we might live. If you don't understand the Law, you can not fully appreciate what was done for you at Calvary.

Romiyim 7: 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires - for apart from , sin is dead.

Dan C

[Questor]

Jan 10, 2014 14:55:10 GMT -8 alon said:

Jan 9, 2014 22:59:45 GMT -8 Questor said:

... I know many Christian beliefs and  teachings are way out of whack with Judaism…I am trying to see where the Messianic Jews stand on their understanding of the Brit Chadashah....

The real problem is they are way out of line with scripture, and more and more they are realizing this. Christians are not willing to let go of their "traditions" any more than Jews are; however I am involved with three mainstream ministries that are so close to Messianism it is crazy that they don't make it over that "traditional" hurdle and convert! But trust me there is a huge movement to bring mainstream folk back to 1st cen. thought and action.

For some, the traditions are more important than , even more important than YHVH.
I do not have any traditions that I follow, but my personal walk is not what I am talking about…I know the order of importance that the Ruach haKodesh has led me, first into noticing that the Sabbath had come; then to become actively aware of Shabbat, then to focus my entire day on Adonai, or G-d related things, teaching, studying, music, reading, movies, being available for my friends. I am the only Believer in my family, and have been disowned…not because of belief exactly, but to all that I am that comes from Believing, and going a different way, and not being at all like they would like me to be.

Since my life is blessed, and I am being healed over a relatively short time from a severe auto accident 18 years ago (Broken Neck, brain damage, PTSD – damage not able to be fixed or just gradually get better from), I know that Abba is pleased with me as any father would be with His toddler. I know also that I am being led toward other things , even as I have been told directly to do things that are not in the specifically, but relate toward my walk, and YHVH’s goals for me. But even as I am absorbing more and more of a attitude, I still walk, always mindful of two things that Yeshua said, and that all Messianics and Christians can relate to, no matter how sticky the idea of the mitzvot in are to them:

Mark 12:28-31 (CJB)
28 One of the -teachers came up and heard them engaged in this discussion. Seeing that Yeshua answered them well, he asked him, “Which is the most important mitzvah of them all?”
29 Yeshua answered, “The most important is, ‘Sh’ma Yisra’el, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad [Hear, O Isra’el, the LORD our God, the LORD is one],
30 and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your understanding and with all your strength.’
31 The second is this: ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other mitzvah greater than these.”

It’s rather , too, because if I do not raise the word “Law” up in the conversation, I can have most non-Levitical commandments agreed to in one way or another. If I say “Commandment”, they think of the Ten Commandments, or of Mark 12:29-31. Most Christians that I know would never eat a rabbit (because bunnies are pets), but are not as finicky about pigs and lobster or shrimp. I occasionally trip over bacon in some prepared food I didn’t know about, but I don’t let it worry me too much. A few of my Christian friends are picking up this attitude, but only as the sea food becomes radioactive and full of mercury, and the vivid pictures of just what a pig will eat if it is hungry (humans) are described, or worse, shown on TV or in a movie as a nifty way to dispose of murder victims.

It is keeping the Sabbath on Saturday that is a concern to most of them, as 1)”It’s Jewish”, to which I say, “So was Jesus,” or 2) “Stop picking nits!” to which I say, “I am not nit-picking. I am trying to please YHVH by obeying Him!” Unfortunately, that merely brings up 3) “You are not Jewish,” to which I am beginning to say, is “Shouldn’t I be…at least in my walk?” Unfortunately, by that time I am speaking to someone’s back as they walk away, because they see Judaism as something foreign to Greco-Roman culture…which it is.

I believe that James and the other apostles at the council in Jerusalem knew quite well how far of a stretch from Judaism was in the way Gentiles lived, and how much attempting to teach a lifetime of information to them that was going to affect Gentiles. I think that the Apostles saw it as a matter of slow and gradual conversion for Gentiles by the simple inclusion of those Gentile seekers into their lives, being more than welcoming to the gentiles joining their assemblies. Once a Jew understood the full Messianic picture in the First Century, there was a great deal that made life easier for him, as Grace covered all those nit-picking rules about how to obey and perform mitzvot.

The Roman Empire and the rising power of the Roman-Greco Church stomped on any chance of finding a middle way between Rabbinical Judaism, and the Greek Proselytes who were being badly taught, but loved Yeshua. Unfortunately for Messianic Gentiles today, finding a way to be mentored in in a non-Judaic way is not an easy thing, and then and now, for Messianic Gentiles it wasn’t about not doing mitzvot, but doing them to the best of your ability, and trusting in G-d. I often wonder what it would be like to be included, and then absorbed into Messianic Judaism, but unfortunately it makes me feel as if I would be assimilated into the Borg. I am sure Jews felt the same way about the Catholic Church. Finding ones’ self in Yeshua is difficult…shaking off your background makes it more so.

Judaism is Hebraic…history, language, and valid in all the commandments in the that are not temple related…at least until we get a temple rebuilt, which will be a very terrible time in my view. So I see the commandments in the that are not pertaining to Cohanim, and Levites to be applicable for men, and sometimes for women, and vice versa. I just don’t see any reason to pick up the performance of them as Rabbinical Jews perform them, and most Messianic Jews begin as Rabbinical Jews. It is not because that performance is Jewish, it is because it is Mishnaic, and Talmudist, and those traits, and almost 1900 years of history and culture, of deliberately being less and less like the Gentiles around them, cannot be separated from the Judaic walk. Yedediah said on the Shabbot thread that he doesn't keep shabbot...shabbot keeps him, which is my point. I am glad it is so for him, but I do not know how to make that happen in my life.

How a Messianic Jew pulls all those Rabbinical directives from his life or if he even does is a mystery to me, but I am mostly determined not to add them into my life, so although I read and study about the , I am very careful about doing anything without the Ruach haKodesh prompting me, because I am not yet keeping the first Ten Commandments as well as I wish, nor Yeshua’s definition of the law in Mark 12:29-31. Obedience under Grace is a continual consultation with the Ruach haKodesh…obedience of without Grace to enable me seems impossible to me, and I am content that it is not my performance of any mitzvot that will do anything for me, except please YHVH. The more He wants me to adhere to , I will do so, but I have difficulties with just the simpler problems of living and walking in the Commandments I understand.

A Jew, when he finds Yeshua in the Tanakh is surprised, and probably horrified…to see so plain a picture written there of the Suffering Servant. But he needs to do very little about it…merely ask Yeshua into his life, and to be baptized, and to receive the infilling of the Ruach haKodesh…and break it to his family and friends. He’s already keeping the commandments of YHVH, along with all the directives of Rabbinical Judaism, and now he can relax…if he remembers to. Things taught strenuously to you as a child will be remembered.

That same newly Messianic Jew will probably be dismayed as well, for when he finds that Yeshua truly is in the Tanakh, and even the , he also knows what it means for those Jews that have not accepted Yeshua as Mashiach. The serendipity of a good Christian walk mimicking some of the will probably surprise him, for a Christian who follows Mark 12:29-31 will be doing a lot of things in a good manner…a non-Jewish incomplete sort of manner, but still good. They are not being taught well, but Christians that have fruit are reading the Scriptures, although they may not be actively studying to see if it fits with what they are being prompted to do. Christians still wince at the idea of Pharisaical righteousness, and confuse those requirements with the …they, and I, do not know how to take it apart in our minds when there is a physical revulsion at the idea of Pharisaical righteousness.

A Jew however, who becomes Messianic in belief has very little to change in his life, except to read additional scriptures, and study them as he as always studied the Tanakh. The extreme dependence on Grace by some Christians will dismay him. Believers like myself who have spent no time in church circles…a few summer Sundays at the age of seven in a bible school learning about the need to be perfect to stay out of hell was my only memorable recollection of Christianity in action, that and my baptism at the age of fifteen. That I was saved at all is a flat out miracle. That I stayed saved, and moved away from evil is because of the Ruach haKodesh.

For me, the Ruach haKodesh crept up on me, and slowly infiltrated my life.  I opened the door, and Yeshua came in, and somehow, here and there, little by little, from faith to faith, things got changed.  For a Jew, and other new Messianic Believers, I hope the infilling of the Ruach haKodesh comes as an inrushing of great magnitude, as it does to some Christians. A conversion of a Jew to Messianism adds richness and depth to their beliefs, but also much complication to a Messianic Jew’s life. Suddenly he has connections to a bunch of people he probably never wanted much to do with, and a belief that probably disturbs and offends much of family and friendships he did not want disturbed or offended. Fortunately, these days, few Protestant Christian (Catholic Christians of Roman, Greek or Orthodox traditions, as well as Lutherans, may feel differently) with any sense will ask a Messianic Jew to become like they are, and take their English, Irish, French, Italian, Russian or whatever culture that comes with that person.

Most Protestant Christians do not care one way or the other about a Jew dropping his Jewish culture and traditions…every one senses the great uniqueness of Judaism…but even Messianic Jews cannot help but feel we are missing something by not becoming more Jewish. Some of us are adding some Hebraic thoughts and customs to our life. The Christians I know will not expect a Jew who believes in Yeshua to change culture to become more Greco-Roman. Even Messianic Jews appear to want us to undo our non--like ideas. I don’t think that is possible without a complete absorption into a Judaic Community, even a Messianic one, and I am not sure how to make that come about, since I do not wish to leave my Christian friends behind, for I would have to find the right community, and synagogue, and then move there. My friends do not care how many mitzvot I adhere to, so long as I am very patient and gentle in expressing what I am doing to them, and not pushing them to do as I do. And since the Ruach is not pushing me to find a new place to move to, I will just go on as I have been.

Because this is a observant Messianic forum, I have not yet found anyone talking about how to please YHVH by becoming more like Yeshua. They talk about , but do not seem to use Yeshua as the perfect example of Judaism that He was, indeed the only perfect Jew. In discussing the Brit Chadashah, there is more of a reconciliation of Yeshua’s way of doing things with Judaism than there is anything else. When I speak about Grace, it is not necessarily about leniency within the performance of mitzvot. It is mostly about finding ways to become more like Yeshua, knowing that I cannot come up to His perfection, and also knowing that if I make that effort every day, and pray for YHVH to make changes in my life through the Ruach haKodesh, and immerse myself in the Scriptures, learning Hebrew, studying, reading, singing and listening to praise music, praying throughout the day, that those changes will be made in me. I will not do those mitzvot in my own strength, and of my own accord…the Ruach will enable me to do them, so that I walk, almost unconsciously, along the straight and narrow path.

The more I learn, the more I am in the Scriptures and other G-dstuff, the less I feel that I am doing anything. It is all the Ruach doing it in me. When I try to do it, I fail, or I manage to complete the mitzvot, but feel as though I have been pushing a boulder up a mountain. The more I lean on the Ruach haKodesh, the more Grace enters my life, and the more I find myself doing what I thought I would never be able to do at all.

The legalism that Christians fear is the loss of that Grace enabling them to do all that YHVH would have us do. To them, and sometimes to me, it as if Messianic Jews are still only arguing points of law; what can and cannot be done, or should be done, or not done as the Rabbinical Jews do. An emphasis on by Messianic Jews is seen as a tendency to legalism because studying the is about arguing points of law, just as an emphasis on Grace by Christians seems like easy believe-ism with no obedience. Yes, there are nuances in all points of the law, but usually Christians speak more of what they did wrong, how they are attempting to make that right, if it can be made right. They speak of this statement or that of Yeshua’s, and how they are focusing on this sermon or that series of teachings that discusses each statement, and how to put it into their lives, and discuss way of think and speaking that covers the intricacies of leaning on YHVH, how they are progressing in the change, how something got easier. They speak of their discoveries, and when they finally saw that they were changed again by Grace, and walking ever so slightly closer to the will of YHVH in their lives, and what effect there is in their life because of it.

I don’t know if this is merely a style of conversation, or a completely different way of viewing what Grace is, and why the infilling of the Ruach is so important, and makes such a difference.

Jan 10, 2014 14:55:10 GMT -8 alon said:

Christians feel a great deal of angst about legalism, and the idea that if one follows the Law, rather than Grace, that person is in error. ... To many Christian Believers that are not Messianic Jews, keeping a Covenant that they were not born into, nor adopted prior to their commitment to Yeshua, is not required of them, because they are Gentiles. For good Scriptural reason, they think the should not concern them. Most Christians take what Yeshua said in John 13:34  as the 11th commandment, and that the Ten Commandments are not exactly Law. They think the other mitzvot in the are purely Temple related, or Culturally Jewish, and do not apply to them

Except for the part about there being "good Scriptural reason" for their disobedience, I agree with what you say.

My apologies…”Many Christians say incorrectly that it is good scriptural reason” because in their view there is no hint anywhere to study the mitzvot, and act on them as a means of pleasing YHVH. They do not understand that the is read constantly in Messianic Synagogues, and always has been. Many of the Christians I have met completely dis-regard every statement about obedience being the way one shows how much you love YHVH except as Sh’aul describes it. They completely miss the part about ‘hungering and thirsting after righteousness’ being about following the commandments, however clumsily.

It is a great pity, for they sincerely think that faith is more important than obedience to , because there are no clear directions to Gentiles to follow . They do not see that Grace requires the willingness to obey, or the Ruach haKodesh cannot work in them. They know they are to be generous, to walk in service to others, to be humble and meek, but obedience to any of the is not taught, or if any is, it is unclear that it is part of the mitzvot. They are taught a combination of the Noahide Laws, and the observance requirements of Matthew 12:29-31, and then told how to become a better human being by hearing a nice passage from 1 Corinthians 13:1-13.

1 Corinthians 13:1-13 (CJB)
1 I may speak in the tongues of men, even angels; but if I lack love, I have become merely blaring brass or a cymbal clanging.
2 I may have the gift of prophecy, I may fathom all mysteries, know all things, have all faith — enough to move mountains; but if I lack love, I am nothing.
3 I may give away everything that I own, I may even hand over my body to be burned; but if I lack love, I gain nothing.
4 Love is patient and kind, not jealous, not boastful,
5 not proud, rude or selfish, not easily angered, and it keeps no record of wrongs.
6 Love does not gloat over other people’s sins but takes its delight in the truth.
7 Love always bears up, always trusts, always hopes, always endures.
8 Love never ends; but prophecies will pass, tongues will cease, knowledge will pass.
9 For our knowledge is partial, and our prophecy partial;
10 but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass.
11 When I was a child, I spoke like a child, thought like a child, argued like a child; now that I have become a man, I have finished with childish ways.
12 For now we see obscurely in a mirror, but then it will be face to face. Now I know partly; then I will know fully, just as God has fully known me.
13 But for now, three things last — trust, hope, love; and the greatest of these is love.


Some preachers still talk about sin…but those sins are mostly adultery…spiritual and physical; perjury, theft, and lying. They are concerned with the seven deadly sins (pride, envy, gluttony, sloth, lust, avarice, wrath)…but not about idolatry…which somehow is not connected to crosses and crucifixes. They do not see that loving G-d with all your heart, mind, soul and strength is to look in the Scriptures, and obey what YHVH in the because they infer that the Apostles were mostly talking to the Jews, and that all that Sh’aul taught is that loving one another is how you please G-d. And after all, Sh’aul said :

Romans 3:19-31 (KJV)
19 Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.
20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Romans 3:19-31 (CJB)
19 Moreover, we know that whatever the says, it says to those living within the framework of the , in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God’s adverse judgment.
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteous on the ground of legalistic observance of commands, because what really does is show people how sinful they are.
21 But now, quite apart from , God’s way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear — although the and the Prophets give their witness to it as well —
22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
23 since all have sinned and come short of earning God’s praise.
24 By God’s grace, without earning it, all are granted the status of being considered righteous before him, through the act redeeming us from our enslavement to sin that was accomplished by the Messiah Yeshua.
25 God put Yeshua forward as the kapparah for sin through his faithfulness in respect to his bloody sacrificial death. This vindicated God’s righteousness; because, in his forbearance, he had passed over [with neither punishment nor remission] the sins people had committed in the past;
26 and it vindicates his righteousness in the present age by showing that he is righteous himself and is also the one who makes people righteous on the ground of Yeshua’s faithfulness.
27 So what room is left for boasting? None at all! What kind of excludes it? One that has to do with legalistic observance of rules? No, rather, a that has to do with trusting.
28 Therefore, we hold the view that a person comes to be considered righteous by God on the ground of trusting, which has nothing to do with legalistic observance of commands.
29 Or is God the God of the Jews only? Isn’t he also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, he is indeed the God of the Gentiles;
30 because, as you will admit, God is one. Therefore, he will consider righteous the circumcised on the ground of trusting and the uncircumcised through that same trusting.
31 Does it follow that we abolish by this trusting? Heaven forbid! On the contrary, we confirm .


If only they could be taught that their salvation in trusting Yeshua, and understand at the same time that obedience to is their way to show YHVH that they love Him.

But as always, they say, “We are not under the Law. We are under Grace by faith.”

And in most English Bibles, the word is translated as Law. Even if it was translated as , they would say, “We are not under . We are under Grace by faith.”

Jan 10, 2014 14:55:10 GMT -8 alon said:

If one believes there were only ten commandments which are applicable from the "O-o-old" part of their Bible, then I suppose that passage would appear to be the 11th commandment. Their problem is that this verse in no way even hints at negating any other commandment! And by the way, some translations have this as "John 13:34 (ISR) A renewed command I give you, that you love one another ..."

I would love to have the word ‘renewed’ and ‘new’ in Hebrew, so that I can research their origins, and different meanings. I am not yet far enough in my Hebrew to isolate specific words as yet.

I would love even more a plain statement in the Brit Chadashah that says we are saved by Grace through trust in Yeshua, and that we are to show our trust in Yeshua by obeying . Yes, I know that it is said, just not that plainly. And so we can only pray that Ruach haKodesh brings that idea home to many others like me…slowly and steadily being brought into observance…not by any lack of trust in Yeshua, but to please Him by obedience to .


Romans 1:5-6 (CJB)
5 Through him we received grace and were given the work of being an emissary on his behalf promoting trust-grounded obedience among all the Gentiles,
6 including you, who have been called by Yeshua the Messiah.

Romans 1:5-6 (NKJV)
5 Through Him we have received grace and apostleship for obedience to the faith among all nations for His name,
6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;


Unfortunately, the translation of the text is critical.


Matthew 5:17-19 (CJB)
17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.

Matthew 5:17-19 (NKJV)
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.
18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.
19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

I am grateful that Matthew gives us encouragement that those who follow the Ruach haKodesh, and truly do trust in Yeshua will at least be in the Kingdom to come. Of course, it is true that if you are infilled with the Ruach haKodesh, you will be led towards obedience as well, but it is not what gives us salvation.

Jan 10, 2014 14:55:10 GMT -8 alon said:

... Acts 15:28 For it seemed good to the Ruach HaKodesh and to us not to lay any heavier burden on you than the following requirements:
29 to abstain from what has been sacrificed to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from fornication. If you keep yourselves from these, you will be doing the right thing ...

This is a starting point for new converts, so that they may enter fellowship but not be overburdened by too much at once. It is not the only requirement, or instruction. Even their stubborn holding to "only the Ten" is evidence of this!

I agree. My Christian friends are very much into loving G-d by loving their neighbor, and learning the Christian virtues that will enable them to walk out that love better…humility, patience, kindness, longsuffering, and so on. All that is necessary as well, and hasn’t ever changed, but some Christians are often so Pauline in their Christianity they are also blind to everything else in Scripture.

I am being led to observe some things in the , and to seek more deeply in all the scriptures. I think that a abiding Messianic Gentile is what I will be, to the extent of my understanding, and the prompting of the Holy Spirit. At the moment, I am still seeking and learning, and deciding how to apply the to my life. I believe that more Christians will become seekers as the times grow more difficult, and the Day of Jacob’s Trouble is upon us, and they seek the consolation of the Scriptures.

In general, a great many Christians, walking a good walk, doing good works, tithing to their Church, volunteering, giving alms, and being faithful to their spouses consider themselves covered by Yeshua’s Grace for anything they are doing wrong. They may or may not attend Church, and although many Denominations of Christians think not going to Church is imprudent, no one is arrested for it anymore…at least, not yet.

My friends are all Christians, of many different beliefs, but the above is true for all of them. They think not working on the Sabbath is fine if you feel that way, and if you don’t go to any Church, as I do not, they look at what the fruits of that person’s walk are, not whether they keep any particular laws. They do not approve of putting idols on the wall, and generally attend non-denominational churches where there is never a cross or crucifix, but if one Christian feels less strongly about it because they were brought up to believe it is okay, their Christian friends will not chastise them in order to bring about a change. But much of their personal conversation is in regards to YHVH, Yeshua and the Ruach haKodesh, and putting YHVH first, though they may call incorrectly call Adonai Yeshua interchangeably, when Yeshua told us to pray to Abba, and ask for things in Yeshua’s name.

Do my Christian friends know that Yeshua was Jewish, and that we serve a Jewish G-d?  More than they did when I began to obey the Holy Spirit, and began keeping the Sabbath, because I talk about it. When I started avoiding non-kosher foods, I pointed out they were eating marine insects and garbage digesters, and they began avoiding non-kosher foods, although if it will really bother someone who is a Christian Believer, they partake of what they are served so as not to crush out a weak reed. Fortunately, they don’t have to worry much about things sacrificed to Idols.

Why do I keep Shabbat, and not eat certain things? I have felt a leading from the Ruach haKodesh to do so. I am beginning to study the feast days now, but I do not understand how to fold them into my very non-Jewish life entirely as yet. As each next Feast Day comes, I daresay I will learn more. I certainly hope so.

I have begun the study of Hebrew, and have prayed to be able to make progress. I can sound out textual writings after only a few weeks, although I do not know the meanings of the words as yet. I am not young, and I have a defective memory from that auto accident, so laying down new memories is difficult. Still, Hebrew is not being so difficult, but then, I am under the Spirit of Grace, and I see it in my life. I am not learning Hebrew quickly because of anything I do, or have abilities for, but it’s happening – to me.

I also know that I am under constant attack by the Adversary, so I know I am headed in the right direction in regards to what I purpose to do next, since he is aware of what I pray for. I find that just writing about my intentions tends to raise my stress level painfully.

Oddly, this is how the Christians that have fruit in their lives are steering themselves…with gentle leadings from the Ruach haKodesh, and in opposition to the Adversary. They and I do this before we look at Scripture, though those that walk well that are Christians are always in the Scriptures, or a teaching, or Worship music. We know the first Ten Commandments, and try very hard to follow them in a world where there is no culture to sustain us but a Grace culture of Christianity, or a /Mishnaic/Talmudic abiding Jewish culture. Messianic Judaism is not understood as any one particular set of beliefs, except when one reads the statement of beliefs on the home page of each separate website. I happen to have read that statement of beliefs here at Ahavat Elohim, and I agree with them. Putting them all into practice is the difficulty.

Jan 10, 2014 14:55:10 GMT -8 alon said:

... I also believe that Grace trumps the Law, but that Yeshua requires every effort to keep the Law to the extent applies to you, in obedience to YHVH.

The "Law" (more accurately instructions) is God’s grace in action. The Law never saved anyone, as "all have sinned and come short of the glory of God." It was given because we needed to know, to personally and experientially understand this. Then we can appreciate why and how He made a way for us to be reconciled to Him time and again. This of course culminated in the death of His Son so that we might live. If you don't understand the Law, you cannot fully appreciate what was done for you at Calvary.

Romiyim 7: 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires - for apart from , sin is dead.

Yes. I prayed to have a fuller revealing to me of Yeshua on the stake, and what it meant, and I had a vivid, if brief vision of each of my sins land on Yeshua as a whip of the lash, and the heaviness, and crushing burden of being cursed for our sake…being cast out from YHVH…being forsaken…in my place.

All in all, I seem to be seeing a disconnect within Messianism. Messianic Jews love Yeshua, but focus on as a means of loving YVHV, while Messianic Gentiles love Yeshua, focus on Grace , and then, prompted by the Holy Spirit, look for ways to please YHVH in . The emphasis appears to be very different.

What do you think?

[alon]

Jan 11, 2014 16:53:16 GMT -8 Questor said:

…I know the order of importance that the Ruach haKodesh has led me, first into noticing that the Sabbath had come; then to become actively aware of Shabbat, then to focus my entire day on Adonai, or G-d related things, teaching, studying, music, reading, movies, being available for my friends.

Shabbat was actually the first of the moedim, and the only one mentioned in both lists of "The Ten Commandments."

I am the only Believer in my family, and have been disowned…not because of belief exactly, but to all that I am that comes from Believing, and going a different way, and not being at all like they would like me to be.

Since my life is blessed, and I am being healed over a relatively short time from a severe auto accident 18 years ago (Broken Neck, brain damage, PTSD – damage not able to be fixed or just gradually get better from), I know that Abba is pleased with me as any father would be with His toddler.

Sorry to hear about both of these, but happy to hear of your healing. There have been three times, one of them just today and all of them on a Shabbat, where I have missed the one medication that I absolutely MUST take every 4 hrs and within 10 minutes either way of the set time, or I experience pure Hell!!! In each case, I absolutely and undeniably missed taking the meds, and experienced NO ill effects! Also in each case there was a specific point or points He wished to emphasize to me. So He is able to heal, wholely or in part as He chooses; He is willing to heal; and He is faithful to give us a witness and hope.

I know also that I am being led toward other things , even as I have been told directly to do things that are not in the specifically, but relate toward my walk, and YHVH’s goals for me. But even as I am absorbing more and more of a attitude, I still walk, always mindful of two things that Yeshua said, and that all Messianics and Christians can relate to, no matter how sticky the idea of the mitzvot in are to them:

Mark 12:28-31 (CJB) 28 One of the -teachers came up and heard them engaged in this discussion. Seeing that Yeshua answered them well, he asked him, “Which is the most important mitzvah of them all?” 29 Yeshua answered, “The most important is, ‘Sh’ma Yisra’el, Adonai Eloheinu, Adonai echad [Hear, O Isra’el, the LORD our God, the LORD is one], 30 and you are to love Adonai your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your understanding and with all your strength.’ 31 The second is this: ‘You are to love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other mitzvah greater than these.”

There is nothing wrong with observing traditions which are not in , as long as they do not contradict or conflict with scripture, they are done with a purpose and a heart for God, and they are not overly burdensome.

I would caution not taking on too much in our zeal of the moment, nor making promises to God to keep something you may later find out you can't keep. My observance of traditions is at this time in a state of flux, as I am still relatively new and inexperienced in Messianism. So when I try on new traditions, I make sure of making the point it is a trial, so that by neither statement nor implication I don't take on something that will possibly be broken or discontinued later. This is just how I handle it- you may be called to or just feel you must do it differently. It's just advice ...

It’s rather , too, because if I do not raise the word “Law” up in the conversation, I can have most non-Levitical commandments agreed to in one way or another. If I say “Commandment”, they think of the Ten Commandments, or of Mark 12:29-31.

That's why I call them "instructions." Which is what they are anyhow, with the exceptions of the Levitical Laws. I'm told the original name for Leviticus was "Torat Cohanim," which means "The Law of (or for) the Priests."

God gave the rest of us instructions for holy living. He gave us promises of good things that would befall us if we did as He said, and bad things if we didn't. He made covenants with His people, not laws for them. Covenants are based on the honor and integrity of all parties who enter into them.

Laws are based on penalties if you get caught breaking them. Honor has little to do with it: if you get a heavy foot or distracted and drive your donkey 25 mph through a shul zone, you get ticketed and appear before the Sanhedrin and then get fined. And if you keep your license in the glove compartment (I don't even want to think where that would be on a donkey ) and you reach in to get it, the cop is likely to draw his bow and make you place your hands on the beasts rump and spread your legs while he searches you and the poor donkey! That was the law in ancient Israel!!! ... And THAT is just how ridiculous the "Christian" fear of THE LAW is!

...I occasionally trip over bacon in some prepared food I didn’t know about, but I don’t let it worry me too much. ... and the vivid pictures of just what a pig will eat if it is hungry (humans) are described, or worse, shown on TV or in a movie as a nifty way to dispose of murder victims.

I guess even Hollywood can be used by God!

Pigs are the closest animal to humans. You can self administer vet grade medications by basing the dosage on your weight compared to the same weight and dosage for a hog on the instructions. I am told that cannibalistic cultures say the meat of a hog and humans tastes the same. Some refer to their next human meal as "long pigs."

It is keeping the Sabbath on Saturday that is a concern to most of them, as 1)”It’s Jewish”, to which I say, “So was Jesus,” or 2) “Stop picking nits!” to which I say, “I am not nit-picking. I am trying to please YHVH by obeying Him!” Unfortunately, that merely brings up 3) “You are not Jewish,” to which I am beginning to say, is “Shouldn’t I be…at least in my walk?” Unfortunately, by that time I am speaking to someone’s back as they walk away, because they see Judaism as something foreign to Greco-Roman culture…which it is.

We are responsible to be an example, tell them when appropriate, and leave the rest to them and God.

... I think that the Apostles saw it as a matter of slow and gradual conversion for Gentiles by the simple inclusion of those Gentile seekers into their lives, being more than welcoming to the gentiles joining their assemblies. Once a Jew understood the full Messianic picture in the First Century, there was a great deal that made life easier for him, as Grace covered all those nit-picking rules about how to obey and perform mitzvot.

Grace always did cover those rules that were too burdensome to bear, just now they saw it in what was at the time considered just another sect of Judaism. But they saw it in observing Jews who were made free of the over-burdensome parts; NOT from gentile converts or from some "whoopee!!!" faction of Jews.

The Roman Empire and the rising power of the Roman-Greco Church stomped on any chance of finding a middle way between Rabbinical Judaism, and the Greek Proselytes who were being badly taught, but loved Yeshua. Unfortunately for Messianic Gentiles today, finding a way to be mentored in in a non-Judaic way is not an easy thing, and then and now, for Messianic Gentiles it wasn’t about not doing mitzvot, but doing them to the best of your ability, and trusting in G-d. I often wonder what it would be like to be included, and then absorbed into Messianic Judaism, but unfortunately it makes me feel as if I would be assimilated into the Borg. I am sure Jews felt the same way about the Catholic Church. Finding ones’ self in Yeshua is difficult…shaking off your background makes it more so.

LOL . I know what you mean about that entire statement, especially the bolded part!

Yedediah said on the Shabbot thread that he doesn't keep shabbot...shabbot keeps him, which is my point. I am glad it is so for him, but I do not know how to make that happen in my life.

Rabbi Yechiel Eckstein (Jewish, not Messianic) said there is a quote common in Judaism that goes something like "The Jews do not keep Shabbat so much as Shabbat has kept them." It has been Shabbat more than anything else that has held the Jewish people together as a race, a religion a nation and as individuals through all the centuries of enslavement, dispersion and persecution. That is quite a statement!

How a Messianic Jew pulls all those Rabbinical directives from his life or if he even does is a mystery to me, but I am mostly determined not to add them into my life, so although I read and study about the , I am very careful about doing anything without the Ruach haKodesh prompting me, because I am not yet keeping the first Ten Commandments as well as I wish, nor Yeshua’s definition of the law in Mark 12:29-31. Obedience under Grace is a continual consultation with the Ruach haKodesh…obedience of without Grace to enable me seems impossible to me, and I am content that it is not my performance of any mitzvot that will do anything for me, except please YHVH. The more He wants me to adhere to , I will do so, but I have difficulties with just the simpler problems of living and walking in the Commandments I understand.

Don't be too quick to dismiss those traditions. I think it is more important to understand the traditions than to do them in most cases. But I am finding that some of them help keep my focus more on God, and help me keep the instructions of more easily and more fully! Many of them are meant to control every waking moment, and impossible to even keep up on, let alone keep! But some are very beautiful illustrations of the Word and/or good ways to help make keeping Gods instructions more easily.

A Jew, when he finds Yeshua in the Tanakh is surprised, and probably horrified…to see so plain a picture written there of the Suffering Servant. But he needs to do very little about it…merely ask Yeshua into his life, and to be baptized, and to receive the infilling of the Ruach haKodesh…and break it to his family and friends.

The breaking of the news is the toughest part, and what keeps many from converting. It is seen as an act worse than treason- they've spit on the graves of all before them who've suffered so much at the hands of the "Christians" they now are joining with. Very ...

As for those ignorant Christians- if they are being good "Christians" they are already keeping almost every single mitzvah that applies to them! But giving up Christmas, Easter, pork, shellfish, catfish, rabbit, etc.; to wear those embarrassing tassles; to be ostracized by fools and have to listen to cherry picked or misinterpreted scripture thrown in your face; ... well, obedience was never all that important to them anyhow.

Because this is a observant Messianic forum, I have not yet found anyone talking about how to please YHVH by becoming more like Yeshua. They talk about , but do not seem to use Yeshua as the perfect example of Judaism that He was, indeed the only perfect Jew. ...

Oh, I disagree! I've seen it often here, and have spoken of this many times myself!

The legalism that Christians fear is the loss of that Grace enabling them to do all that YHVH would have us do. To them, and sometimes to me, it as if Messianic Jews are still only arguing points of law; what can and cannot be done, or should be done, or not done as the Rabbinical Jews do. An emphasis on by Messianic Jews is seen as a tendency to legalism because studying the is about arguing points of law, just as an emphasis on Grace by Christians seems like easy believe-ism with no obedience. ...

This is because of the lies and propaganda Christians have been raised with that says "Old Testament" observance is legalism and that grace is only a "New Testament" phenomenon. I don't just cry "BULL!" on this- I throw the stuff in their face if they are the equivalent of "Christian anti-missionaries," and I set them straight if just Christians talking with me about it. But then, I'm told by those who know me well that I am a donkeys glove compartment ...

I don’t know if this is merely a style of conversation, or a completely different way of viewing what Grace is, ...

It is a lie and an excuse, and nothing more, nothing less.

... and why the infilling of the Ruach is so important, and makes such a difference.

It is God with us today, and that makes ALL the difference!

Some preachers still talk about sin…but those sins are mostly adultery…spiritual and physical; perjury, theft, and lying. They are concerned with the seven deadly sins (pride, envy, gluttony, sloth, lust, avarice, wrath)…but not about idolatry…which somehow is not connected to crosses and crucifixes ...

and "X"mas trees, and Easter eggs, and Halloween candy ... . As for the Apostles, they have Greco-Romanized them as much as they have the fair haired, blue eyed Jesus they worship.

If only they could be taught that their salvation in trusting Yeshua, and understand at the same time that obedience to is their way to show YHVH that they love Him.

This is one reason I don't condemn all mainstream folk, as some do show a form of obedience as well as works which bear fruit. Remember too that the world has been evangelized by these same "Christian" believers! But I fear for many brought up under these doctrines, as they show no evidence at all.

I would love to have the word ‘renewed’ and ‘new’ in Hebrew, so that I can research their origins, and different meanings. I am not yet far enough in my Hebrew to isolate specific words as yet.

The trouble is they are the same word- chadasha; and like many Hebrew words can mean more than one thing, depending on context. In the case of the Brit Chadashah, or Renewed Covenant, and in many cases in scripture, I think the definition must be taken in context with the entire Bible. The "NT" is so obviously to anyone with an open and discerning mind simply a renewing of the covenant at Sinai before Israel's idolatrous betrayal, I have to see it as meaning "renewed."

I would love even more a plain statement in the Brit Chadashah that says we are saved by Grace through trust in Yeshua, and that we are to show our trust in Yeshua by obeying . Yes, I know that it is said, just not that plainly.

There are many things in scripture, particularly in the B'rit Chadashah, that are not said clearly. Paul is a good example of this. However I think Yeshua did say "If you love me, keep my commandments." He didn't say just those in the "NT." He also said "the wages of sin is death," and that sin is transgression of His instructions (the law). Seems to me that means do what is said in .

Salvation "by grace through faith (trust)" is demonstrated from Adam on to the present age, and beyond.

..., but some Christians are often so Pauline in their Christianity they are also blind to everything else in Scripture.

That is because much of Paul's writings are so convoluted that they can easily make them say or mean whatever they want. One of the questions I have for Yeshua when I see him- "Why in the WORLD did you choose rav Sha'ul to author most of the Renewed Covenant!?"

Do my Christian friends know that Yeshua was Jewish, and that we serve a Jewish G-d?

They have mostly been brainwashed into believing He was as white and as pagan as they are.

... Fortunately, they don’t have to worry much about things sacrificed to Idols.

No? What about Halloween candy- even if they just bought some cheap at the after-Halloween sales? Or Easter eggs? Communion served in containers with a cross on top in those instances where the cross is venerated?

I also know that I am under constant attack by the Adversary, so I know I am headed in the right direction in regards to what I purpose to do next, since he is aware of what I pray for. I find that just writing about my intentions tends to raise my stress level painfully.

Yes, in all things I try to give thanks, because in most of them I know I'm doing something that old boy doesn't want me to do if he attacks me!

... We know the first Ten Commandments, and try very hard to follow them in a world where there is no culture to sustain us but a Grace culture of Christianity, ...

The problem is, when you discount the other commandments, especially the other list in Ex 30, which is the only list God called the Ten Commandments, it then becomes increasingly easy to disobey the ten you chose. This is especially true when right off the start you repeatedly break Shabbat!

All in all, I seem to be seeing a disconnect within Messianism. Messianic Jews love Yeshua, but focus on as a means of loving YVHV, while Messianic Gentiles love Yeshua, focus on Grace , and then, prompted by the Holy Spirit, look for ways to please YHVH in . The emphasis appears to be very different.

I don't think that is a fair assessment, although I can't speak for your experiences. The ones I study with here close to home, and talk to on this forum are genuinely searching for the whole truth, including and grace. But we can all use some improvement I those and other areas, which we are all seeking for as well.

Dan C