Question- Salvation if you Don't Keep Torah

[Deleted]

I was reading one of the threads and I came across a question to someone's posting with regards if one who accepts Yeshua into their hearts but they do not believe they need to keep or they do not do the , will they be in heaven or not.

Well there was a verse that came to mind.

"Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

When I read this I think that the one who teaches that the is not important or that it has been done away with, will be in heaven but will be considered the least or will have a lower place in heaven. Where with the one who does teach that is for today and keeps God's laws will be called great in heaven or will have a higher place in heaven.

So for those who do not believe that we are to keep the laws of God but has Yeshua in their hearts and loves and tries to serve Him, will they be in heaven?

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

Dec 29, 2013 19:10:18 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

When I read this I think that the one who teaches that the is not important or that it has been done away with, will be in heaven ...with the one who does teach that is for today and keeps God's laws will ... have a higher place in heaven.

So for those who do not believe that we are to keep the laws of God but has Yeshua in their hearts and loves and tries to serve Him, will they be in heaven?

I have asked this same question and pondered this same verse many times. Should I be more open and forceful with "evangelizing" Christians? Am I doing harm supporting mainstream ministries, even though these are ministries which attempt to move mainC closer to 1st cen. beliefs?

I really don't know where salvation is gained or lost for a believer in mainC. I know many there who are generous, trusting God and obviously believe in Jesus as the Christ. But they refuse to look at other than as an archaic form of belief, for the Jews only except where it supports their view of "NT" scripture. They bear the fruits of salvation, often more than I do.

I guess I've come to understand as you, that many will be there from mainC. However their doctrines do seem to me to lead many, many more astray. Far too often there are those who appear to be missing the mark, despite their acknowledgment of Jesus and statements of "faith." I just try to be there for them, to answer questions and sometimes to try to correct improper doctrine; or at least give them an alternative view.

There is also the concern that in telling them the truth I somehow condemn them, or am an accessory to their condemnation. I just have to trust God and leave that with Him. He put me here for a reason, and I see my job as to be true to the light I've been given.

Dan C

[Questor]

Dec 29, 2013 19:30:06 GMT -8 alon said:

Dec 29, 2013 19:10:18 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

... "Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:19

When I read this I think that the one who teaches that the is not important or that it has been done away with, will be in heaven ...with the one who does teach that is for today and keeps God's laws will ... have a higher place in heaven.

So for those who do not believe that we are to keep the laws of God but has Yeshua in their hearts and loves and tries to serve Him, will they be in heaven?

I have asked this same question and pondered this same verse many times. Should I be more open and forceful with "evangelizing" Christians? Am I doing harm supporting mainstream ministries, even though these are ministries which attempt to move mainC closer to 1st cen. beliefs?

I really don't know where salvation is gained or lost for a believer in mainC. I know many there who are generous, trusting God and obviously believe in Jesus as the Christ. But they refuse to look at other than as an archaic form of belief, for the Jews only except where it supports their view of "NT" scripture. They bear the fruits of salvation, often more than I do.

I guess I've come to understand as you, that many will be there from mainC. However their doctrines do seem to me to lead many, many more astray. Far too often there are those who appear to be missing the mark, despite their acknowledgment of Jesus and statements of "faith." I just try to be there for them, to answer questions and sometimes to try to correct improper doctrine; or at least give them an alternative view.

There is also the concern that in telling them the truth I somehow condemn them, or am an accessory to their condemnation. I just have to trust God and leave that with Him. He put me here for a reason, and I see my job as to be true to the light I've been given.

Dan C

We must rely on the Ruach to do the writing of the laws on man's heart.

First, the law brought by Yeshua is not merely the keeping of the , but a call to keep the laws in the spirit as well as in action.

Neither can be done perfectly by anyone, but in the Tanakh and the Brit Chadashah, the call is there...the as to what the Israelites were to do to keep covenant with YHVH, and how the Brit Chadashah was to be wrought upon those of us who are re-born into righteousness, and how we would be changed to see, hear, think, breathe as well as do as Yeshua did that we might not err in our walk.

No one on this planet has all the truth, and though the Spirit may be in a teacher/preacher/pastor/Rabbi, it does not mean that the man speaking will say all that he is hearing from the Spirit accurately, nor that the Evil One will not interfere with what is heard and said, and then heard by the congregants in their turn.

It is why the Scriptures are so valuable to use, that we might check everything that is spoken to us, to see if it really concurs with what YHVH has said.

As for the quote in Matthew, I believe the reference was for those that mean to speak well, and fail, or believe a wrong teaching, and teach it to others, but they are still yet in Yeshua, saved if not in full understanding.

Deliberately, and consciously seeking to please a congregation by slanting the teaching away from the truth would however put one in more dangerous territory. Those that are held by the Spirit to the truth might not waver, but those new to any teachings may be led terribly astray.

And teaching that the law is gone or dead is apt to lead people astray, yet the teacher himself may not know or believe that Yeshua actually came to give us, along with the grace to obey the law in full, but actually, to walk in a deeper sense of the law than is required in the Old Covenent.

[alon]

Dec 30, 2013 0:46:20 GMT -8 Questor said:

We must rely on the Ruach to do the writing of the laws on man's heart.

As this was an idiom for memorization of a passage, the first part is ours- to know not only well enough to obey it but to defend it as well.

First, the law brought by Yeshua is not merely the keeping of the , but a call to keep the laws in the spirit as well as in action.

Absolutely; and it starts with knowing by hard study.

Neither can be done perfectly by anyone, but in the Tanakh and the Brit Chadashah, the call is there...the as to what the Israelites were to do to keep covenant with YHVH, and how the Brit Chadashah was to be wrought upon those of us who are re-born into righteousness, and how we would be changed to see, hear, think, breathe as well as do as Yeshua did that we might not err in our walk.

Again you are drifting into dispensationalist doctrines. We are NOT in a dispensation where the Ruach simply writes everything on out hearts and we just know all good from all evil. MainC tells us just to follow our hearts, for that is where the "new laws" are written.
Hbr 3:10 “THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THIS GENERATION,
AND SAID, ‘THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART,
AND THEY DID NOT KNOW MY WAYS';

He then says
No one on this planet has all the truth, and though the Spirit may be in a teacher/preacher/pastor/Rabbi, it does not mean that the man speaking will say all that he is hearing from the Spirit accurately, nor that the Evil One will not interfere with what is heard and said, and then heard by the congregants in their turn.

It is why the Scriptures are so valuable to use, that we might check everything that is spoken to us, to see if it really concurs with what YHVH has said.

As for the quote in Matthew, I believe the reference was for those that mean to speak well, and fail, or believe a wrong teaching, and teach it to others, but they are still yet in Yeshua, saved if not in full understanding.

Many mean to speak well, but they "miss the mark" and lead others off target as well. These are not saved.

Deliberately, and consciously seeking to please a congregation by slanting the teaching away from the truth would however put one in more dangerous territory. Those that are held by the Spirit to the truth might not waver, but those new to any teachings may be led terribly astray.

And teaching that the law is gone or dead is apt to lead people astray, yet the teacher himself may not know or believe that Yeshua actually came to give us, along with the grace to obey the law in full, but actually, to walk in a deeper sense of the law than is required in the Old Covenent.

And Muslins, Adventists, Greek Orthodox- these and others teach their own understanding of the Law. Most don't mean to be so far off base. How far astray do you have to go to be in trouble? They would all say they were "held in the spirit."

Dan C

[Yedidyah]

And Muslins, Adventists, Greek Orthodox- these and others teach their own understanding of the Law. Most don't mean to be so far off base. How far astray do you have to go to be in trouble? They would all say they were "held in the spirit."

Dan C

Shalom!
This is why it is so important to have a foundation in .
Whatever one does in the flesh affects the spirit so when people say they are keeping the commands in their spirit it is purely a false doctrine that comes from modern Christianity.
If one is led by the Ruach and not following the commands how much are they really willing to let go? How far are they willing to let the Ruach do it's molding and refining into something more than just flesh.
I hear people tell me their spirit is keeping the Sabbath all the time while they see no basis for it in their own lives.
This is why the is so important. Without it we are all lost in what sin is within our own eyes.
What about holiness, why is it that so many are willing to settle for anything less. All these groups say they are led by the Ruach like you pointed out. So without the actions of within our own lives are we really being guided by the Ruach, I think the answer is clear.
It is always a matter of how much are we willing to let go of our flesh and give over to the one and only true guidance. Anyone who is teaching another law like you pointed out is not being led simple as that. They are leading the sheep astray.
I think Ya' Akov said it well,


James 2:16-19
16 and someone says to him, “Shalom! Keep warm and eat hearty!” without giving him what he needs, what good does it do? 17 Thus, faith by itself, unaccompanied by actions, is dead.

18 But someone will say that you have faith and I have actions. Show me this faith of yours without the actions, and I will show you my faith by my actions! 19 You believe that “God is one”? Good for you! The demons believe it too — the thought makes them shudder with fear!

EVEN THE DEMONS KNOW HE IS ONE so show us faith by actions or else your faith is dead.
We are called for more than playing church, we must strive for holiness and stop sacrificing the oracles of the Father for things given by men. Thanks for your post Dan these are all things we should be thinking about.
Shalom to all and have a blessed day!

[Deleted]

Very good thoughts gentlemen.

[Deleted]

Hi Questor,

You stated, "As for the quote in Matthew, I believe the reference was for those that mean to speak well, and fail, or believe a wrong teaching, and teach it to others, but they are still yet in Yeshua, saved if not in full understanding.

Deliberately, and consciously seeking to please a congregation by slanting the teaching away from the truth would however put one in more dangerous territory. Those that are held by the Spirit to the truth might not waver, but those new to any teachings may be led terribly astray."

I can see this. Also I agree that those who deliberately seek to please their congregation by slanting the teachings to please the people or to gain more people into their ministry, is walking on dangerous thin ice. Or should we say playing with Holy Fire? For these people they will definitely stand before a Holy God and give an account. In God's eyes they would also be considered false prophets, false teachers and wolves in sheep's clothing. Which brings to mind Jeremiah 23. Where God is admonishing pastors who scatter the sheep. Which also comes to mind John 10. Talking about the Good Shepherd and those who are hired as hirelings.

However the question still remains. Say for example, I grew up being taught that the law is no more and that it was done away with and I taught others what I knew. Yet I love God with all of my heart and pleased Him to the best of my ability, would I still be considered to spend eternity with God? And if so would I be the least because I didn't know that the law was for today and was taught that it wasn't? Or would I go to hell because of my own ignorance and not knowing?

Moruah Ruth

[Questor]

Look at the verse following your quote, Moriah Ruth:

Matthew 5:17-20 (CJB)
17 “Don’t think that I have come to abolish the or the Prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete.
18 Yes indeed! I tell you that until heaven and earth pass away, not so much as a yud or a stroke will pass from the — not until everything that must happen has happened.
19 So whoever disobeys the least of these mitzvot and teaches others to do so will be called the least in the Kingdom of Heaven. But whoever obeys them and so teaches will be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
20 For I tell you that unless your righteousness is far greater than that of the -teachers and P’rushim, you will certainly not enter the Kingdom of Heaven!

Yeshua in Matthew 5 was speaking about the entirety of the law being in effect. He is saying that one can break a commandment, and even teach the breaking of a commandment, and still, presumably as this was when the Temple still stood, made sacrifice for sins committed in ignorance, that person would still make it into the Olam Haba, but rank very low. But then Yeshua says very strongly, that unless a Jew does better than the Rabbis and Pharisee’s at the time, you would not be entering the Kingdom at all, as they most certainly would not.

Any Rabbi or Pharisee listening at the time would have been highly offended by this, since they thought that the Talmud, wrapped around the Mishna, wrapped around the kept them perfectly blameless. But the Rabbi’s and Pharisee’s in Yeshua’s observation were not to be imitated…if you recall, Yeshua said:

Matthew 23:1-3 (KJV)
1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples,
2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

Matthew 23:1-3 (CJB)
1 Then Yeshua addressed the crowds and his talmidim:
2 “The -teachers and the P’rushim,” he said, “sit in the seat of Moshe.
3 So whatever they tell you, take care to do it. But don’t do what they do, because they talk but don’t act!

Doing only as well as the Rabbi’s and Pharisee’s was to Yeshua not doing anything much at all, were not to be copied or imitated, and thus since the Rabbi’s and Pharisee’s were obviously in trouble already, not doing better than they did was as good as sentencing yourself to complete separation from YHVH.

Working under this understanding, someone who believes in Yeshua, and who does not obey the because he does not believe that the applies to him is in danger, particularly if that person is not seeking a deeper walk with Yeshua through the Ruach haKodesh.

Matthew 7:21-23 (KJV)
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Matthew 7:21-23 (CJB)
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, only those who do what my Father in heaven wants.
22 On that Day, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! Didn’t we prophesy in your name? Didn’t we expel demons in your name? Didn’t we perform many miracles in your name?’
23 Then I will tell them to their faces, ‘I never knew you! Get away from me, you workers of lawlessness!’

However, for all of this, I do not believe that someone can be truly born again, baptized, and infilled with the Holy Spirit without being led to follow . Being badly or wrongly taught is able to be overcome by the working of the Holy Spirit, and the relationship with YHVH through Yeshua.

This is not dispensationalism, nor are we who are infilled with the Ruach haKodesh doing anything unusual, requiring a special circumstance, or the Kingdom to experience it. The power of YHVH is sufficient to change the Believer, and I know this because I have been changed, and pulled toward in exactly this way. I do not yet follow all of , nor follow it blamelessly…no one can, which is why Yeshua died for us. However, the Ruach keeps encouraging me to do what I can do, within the limits of my understanding, and also, gives me more understanding as I progress, without any Pastor, or Teacher, or Rabbi telling me what is what.

I am in Yeshua, and already a part of the New Covenant. Yeshua's commandments of Love YHVH and Love thy Neighbor are firmly written in me, and I follow them in ways that only the Ruach shows me as I go, even as the Ruach leads me to know all the details of the , and how to apply them in my life.

I also have the Word in the Scriptures, and I am not foolish enough to avoid studying them, to learn what else I do not know as well as I would like to, and the Holy Spirit leads me to add on those things of that He enables me to do, in the order He enables me to do them. Whomever reads the New Covenant Scriptures cannot but help but be called to obedience as the measure of one's faith in Yeshua, and walking in that faith leads to obedience.

[Deleted]

Thank you Questor, That was a bit to think upon. I will get back to you on that.

Moriah Ruth

[johnd]

By faith in Yeshua we keep .

Galatians 3:24–28 (NASB95)
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are like the Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics. Both in tandem produce flight. Forsake the law of aerodynamics however and you are going to be subject to the law of gravity tout de suite.

[johnd]

Essentially the Law states you can go to heaven God's way or hell your own way and the Law of Moses will be your judge.

John 5:45 (NASB95)
45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

[alon]

Mar 8, 2015 20:34:42 GMT -8 johnd said:

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are like the Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics. Both in tandem produce flight. Forsake the law of aerodynamics however and you are going to be subject to the law of gravity tout de suite.

LOL, great analogy; except I'd say the Laws of Moses and Yeshua are the same! Yeshua never gave us anything that wasn't already in the TNK. Most of His teachings come straight out of the mishna. Yeshua, the "Word," is the one who gave the word to Moshe. He is God, and so never contradicts Himself.

Heb 13:8 Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.

Mar 8, 2015 20:36:26 GMT -8 johnd said:

John 5:45 (NASB95)45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

This is a good quote, but I think it is worth reading in context:

44 How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father. There is one who accuses you: Moses, on whom you have set your hope. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe me; for he wrote of me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?”

[maranguape]

Mar 8, 2015 20:36:26 GMT -8 johnd said:

Essentially the Law states you can go to heaven God's way or hell your own way and the Law of Moses will be your judge.

John 5:45 (NASB95)
45“Do not think that I will accuse you before the Father; the one who accuses you is Moses, in whom you have set your hope.

To Johnd: Would you quote an evidence in the or the whole of the Tanach where it states in the Law that we can go to heaven God's way or
hell our own way? BTW, I have not found in the whole of the Tanach, any other way but that to Sheol,  the eternal home of the dead. And no one can accuse another after both are dead. (Ecclesiastes 9:5,6)

[maranguape]

Mar 8, 2015 20:34:42 GMT -8 johnd said:

By faith in Yeshua we keep .

Galatians 3:24–28 (NASB95)
24Therefore the Law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, so that we may be justified by faith.
25But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.
26For you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus.
27For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are like the Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics. Both in tandem produce flight. Forsake the law of aerodynamics however and you are going to be subject to the law of gravity tout de suite.

That's not what Yeshua said. He said that salvation comes by listening to "Moses" aka the Law. (Luke 16:29-31) In other words, we must not forget the
memory of whom HaShem gave us the Law aka the Decalogue. 

[jimmie]

Mar 9, 2015 0:38:24 GMT -8 alon said:

Mar 8, 2015 20:34:42 GMT -8 johnd said:

The Law of Moses and the Law of Christ are like the Law of Gravity and the Law of Aerodynamics. Both in tandem produce flight. Forsake the law of aerodynamics however and you are going to be subject to the law of gravity tout de suite.

LOL, great analogy; except I'd say the Laws of Moses and Yeshua are the same! Yeshua never gave us anything that wasn't already in the TNK. Most of His teachings come straight out of the mishna. Yeshua, the "Word," is the one who gave the word to Moshe. He is God, and so never contradicts Himself.

It alon's point:

James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.