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Post by alon on Dec 24, 2013 19:12:23 GMT -8
 It's Christmas Eve, my wife is at a candlelight service right now; everywhere li'l kiddies are going to sleep with visions of a short, fat housebreaker and goodies in their heads; and many Christians here are congratulating themselves on the fact they've survived another year and not been "converted" by their local resident Messianic (a.k.a. "Me"  ) Actually, I only answer when they ask any more, and I did answer all their questions. But they can't resist asking near as much as they can resist conviction when told. One friend even got a bit upset and told me he was going to just go back to being ignorant, and was going to stand before God "dumb as a box of rocks" and that would be enough for Gods grace. I've been under a pretty consistent and sometimes serious spiritual attack for the past few months. It is more due to the ministries I'm involved in, I think. But the enemy is always willing to use anything to get at us; especially since the question came up in one of the ministry meetings that elicited that response from my friend. Divide and conquer ... But that's a rabbit trail. My main point is I was thinking- trying to look back and see the issue from their point of view. Assume their points are true and then look at how what I was saying made sense or not. And it came to me: Even if their arguments FOR Christmas are true; it's what's in their hearts; they are worshiping the "Baby Jesus"; celebrating the birth of the Messiah; carrying on Christian tradition (and assuming this is OK); and on ad infinitum. Even if all this is true, Christmas is still purely evil because it takes their hearts away from God and His moedim; and replaces what is good with materialism, bright lights and colorful decorations, asherim and elfish demons who demand this worship. Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 19:16:53 GMT -8
I m not sure how to reply to that.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 24, 2013 19:22:16 GMT -8
Well, I do not worship Santa or his elves. nor do I worship the tree. Why? Because I do not have them in my home for the simple reason that in my heart it takes away from the real meaning of Christmas. In my thinking it is about the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, in many ways Christmas now days are based on getting the best gift for the one you love or getting the best gift that one has been hoping for. Too much paganism and commercialism.
In all honesty, I am totally not sure where I stand when it comes to Christmas. All I know is that I do not worship like most people would.
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Post by alon on Dec 24, 2013 20:13:41 GMT -8
I m not sure how to reply to that. Well, I do not worship Santa or his elves. nor do I worship the tree. Why? Because I do not have them in my home for the simple reason that in my heart it takes away from the real meaning of Christmas. In my thinking it is about the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, in many ways Christmas now days are based on getting the best gift for the one you love or getting the best gift that one has been hoping for. Too much paganism and commercialism. In all honesty, I am totally not sure where I stand when it comes to Christmas. All I know is that I do not worship like most people would. And you probably do keep the feasts, and are working towards  observance. People like you are not who I was talking about. My wife and I are trying to come to some understanding and agreement on celebrating both the moedim and Christian holidays. I have to respect her and her wishes if I want the same in return. But no- no trees or elves or anything but a few cards in our home. I will be going to my sons' for Christmas dinner tomorrow, and I'm sure it'll all be there. But that is family, and I honestly think that other than denying Yeshua, family is first. His oldest is in first grade, and I won't stay home or go in and destroy his or the other kids joy just to make a point. So I wasn't just attacking their beliefs. I'm saying that all their arguments for the substitution of pagan holidays for Gods moedim fall flat in the realization of one fact- they keep you from doing what God said to do! They encourage the worship of things other than God; and when your heart is at the foot of that tree on Christmas morning your worship is elsewhere! And worship of anything other than God is satanic; simple. Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. ..." When their heart is with elves, bunnies and even pumpkins, people typically have no heart for Gods appointed times. Dan |
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Post by Questor on Dec 24, 2013 23:44:51 GMT -8
I m not sure how to reply to that. Well, I do not worship Santa or his elves. nor do I worship the tree. Why? Because I do not have them in my home for the simple reason that in my heart it takes away from the real meaning of Christmas. In my thinking it is about the Lord Jesus Christ. Yes, in many ways Christmas now days are based on getting the best gift for the one you love or getting the best gift that one has been hoping for. Too much paganism and commercialism. In all honesty, I am totally not sure where I stand when it comes to Christmas. All I know is that I do not worship like most people would. And you probably do keep the feasts, and are working towards observance. People like you are not who I was talking about. My wife and I are trying to come to some understanding and agreement on celebrating both the moedim and Christian holidays. I have to respect her and her wishes if I want the same in return. But no- no trees or elves or anything but a few cards in our home. I will be going to my sons' for Christmas dinner tomorrow, and I'm sure it'll all be there. But that is family, and I honestly think that other than denying Yeshua, family is first. His oldest is in first grade, and I won't stay home or go in and destroy his or the other kids joy just to make a point. So I wasn't just attacking their beliefs. I'm saying that all their arguments for the substitution of pagan holidays for Gods moedim fall flat in the realization of one fact- they keep you from doing what God said to do! They encourage the worship of things other than God; and when your heart is at the foot of that tree on Christmas morning your worship is elsewhere! And worship of anything other than God is satanic; simple. Mat 6:24 "No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. ..." When their heart is with elves, bunnies and even pumpkins, people typically have no heart for Gods appointed times. Dan My brother, if they do not wish to understand, there is little that you can do. And all you can do is accept their lack of understanding, and to maintain harmony in a family that is in Yeshua, if slightly overwhelmed by secular, pagan traditions by loving them, and giving them what they feel is necessary to be valued by you. I have found, however, that although everyone around me celebrated Christmas when I first became Messianic, over the years, they have mostly stopped participating except in the family dinners, and they tend to keep Christmas Eve and Christmas day privately. It isn't that they are becoming Messianic yet, although they have learned to put up with my learning new stories to tell them about the feasts, and the fact that as I study Hebrew more and more, that those words creep into my speech, and they no longer think it as strange as they did. Instead, it is that they see that my way of spending the secular day of celebration in quietness is very attractive. I have a 'Holiday' decoration...it just has nothing of Xmas in it. It's pretty, and they like it, and they like the symbolism when I explain it to them. And if they really want to give me a present, they set it near my little display. And they know I like to give gifts, but a small remembrance is simply to exemplify the Gift that Yeshua brought us, when He was born, and they have begun to be intrigued by the true moedim, even in the simple way I participate in them, even if they are not ready to participate. And my family, who are anti-christ, I give them the secular presents they desire, and withold myself. They do not know what to make of me, for I assume that their lot in life is hard enough as unbelievers to lose the small bits of pleasure they can have in their only life. To them I am kind and generous with my money, for they value it, and it is easy for me to share it. I am stingy with myself, for they do not value that. Give love and time where it is wanted, and a few gifts will not matter, even when they eventually disappear as the children grow up, and the elderly go Home. And with your own wife and children, celebrate a season of lights from Hanukkah to the New Year, and make your own traditions, weeding out the pagan and the secular where you can. And if your wife and children are going to be joining in the moedim, they will soon understand, and withdraw themselves from all that is the worst of Xmas...except more family time, and the days of, of course. Give it a few cycles through the years, and try not to mourn over their lack of understanding. If you quietly teach them, pray for their understanding, and lead them, without forcing their breaking away from all that is around them, they will follow in your footsteps in G-d's timing. |
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2013 0:28:31 GMT -8
It's 12:20 on Dec 25th and I just feel the urge to say "bah, humbug!" (or something similar ...  ). I called the rabbi earlier and told him I was sorry to interrupt his Christmas Eve (he got a kick out of that  ); but just to let him know I wouldn't be at the study tomor- err ..., tonight. He said I was doing the right thing for the right reasons, and fully understood. Questor, I'm generally the one observing things quietly on Shabbat and feasts. I know it's kind of like creative work, but I try and mostly study the Word on those days. Or I'll study what the feast day is about, or how it relates to prophecy. We talk about it (when she's not yelling or doing that silent thing), and we try to work it out. But she is stubborn ...  Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 25, 2013 6:16:57 GMT -8
Dan, I don't observe the Feasts because I do not not understand them. And I do not observe Sabbath because my work requires that I work every Saturday. I know that you were not picking on anyone about their beliefs on Christmas. To be honest I am not sure where I stand in any of this . I see the truth of it. Just not sure which direction to go. I pose my last statement to Questor also. I'm confused and not sure where to start. Maybe I will go stick my head under the sand. Oh wait, God didn't create me to be an ostrich. Maybe I will stick my head in a shell like a turtle. However God didn't create me to be a turtle. So I will keep searching and try not to get confused and overwhelmed in the process. Questor. you left me good info on the other threads. However I need to find time to read them thoroughly. Blessings to you all. |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Dec 25, 2013 9:48:15 GMT -8
I can relate to all of this discussion. Yes, Christmas (out of protest I tried to enter it in lowercase but something changes it to initial capital) is wrong. However, there is some good in it for the unenlightened. Our God can make good come out of even evil. Doesn't stop it from being evil.
John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
In spite of all the bad influences it is a time of sometimes superficial recognition of our Savior.
My wife struggles with releasing a small remnant of her Christmas traditions (mostly triggered out of actions by others) and I am patient because I understand the struggle. She and I have come a long way and are still learning and growing. I don't mock or criticize anyone but my distaste is (deliberately? unavoidably?) not completely hidden.
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Post by Questor on Dec 25, 2013 15:11:40 GMT -8
I can relate to all of this discussion. Yes, Christmas (out of protest I tried to enter it in lowercase but something changes it to initial capital) is wrong. However, there is some good in it for the unenlightened. Our God can make good come out of even evil. Doesn't stop it from being evil. John 16:33 These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world. In spite of all the bad influences it is a time of sometimes superficial recognition of our Savior. My wife struggles with releasing a small remnant of her Christmas traditions (mostly triggered out of actions by others) and I am patient because I understand the struggle. She and I have come a long way and are still learning and growing. I don't mock or criticize anyone but my distaste is (deliberately? unavoidably?) not completely hidden. Xmas is so much more secular, even if capitalized! When I woke today, and said "Good Morning" to Adonai, I also said to Yeshua..."Hey, it's your official Birthday!" Then I went into my usual diatribe about Saturnalia, and other pagan festivals, realized it sounded somewhat judgmental and critical, and asked Him to enjoy the day as it is meant. Then I thanked Him that I didn't have to put up with any of that nonsense, opened my Xmas present to myself (fattening - and hypocritical!), and realized how incredibly entwined we all are with this world and it's ways. For most the day is only superficially attached to Yeshua, as it was in my child days...the lights on the house and the tree were for 'pretty', and the presents a gift giving extravaganza that my Mother loved, my Dad hated, and my brother and other relatives seemed to enjoy a lot. I liked the giving as much as the receiving, looking for the pleasure particularly in Mom's eyes, since she so delighted in the day. I remember the days with pleasure, and am glad for the memory. But it had and has very little to do with honoring Yeshua...except as a baby in a manger, receiving gifts from the Magi, and singing some sweet songs. I do not begrudge it to those that have no idea of what Yeshua might like, and I enjoy the happiness of my memories. Yeshua, after all, was a social guy, and might have enjoyed the party anyway! Xmas is for the purpose of enjoying family, and giving gifts, and feasting...it is not godly in any way, but for many, a lot of fun, and for others a nightmare, or a grave disappointment, a day of accentuated loneliness and want. Not a day of celebrating Yeshua in general, alas, but you can find services at many churches...Protestant, Catholic and Orthodox, where a point is made of celebrating Yeshua IS made. For me, the day is as any other day, and a blessed time of quiet to spend as I like, thanking YHVH for the day. And if you only listen to the music you buy, and turn off the TV and the radio, you don't have to hear that beastly 'Rocking around the Xmas Tree', or some other hideous songs, commercials and shows about the glories of Xmas. One more week, and the holiday silliness will be gone...until next Halloween, when it begins again. |
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2013 16:54:29 GMT -8
I don't observe the Feasts because I do not not understand them. And I do not observe Sabbath because my work requires that I work every Saturday. It is difficult when you start to try to become observant. I study the feasts on their day, but really, without community involvement or even my wife's help I don't get the real "feel" of the day. All we can do is pray that God will help us to change our circumstances and show us what it is He wants us to do. I am sure He had a reason for placing me in my present circumstance. Just wish I knew why ... ;D Start where you are and move ahead slowly; a little at a time. Maybe study each feast day as it occurs this year. Try to find where it fits in prophetically next year; and so on. Eventually maybe God will bless you with being able to observe the feasts as well as Shabbat. And that's exactly what God requires of us. Just keep trying, make an honest effort and He will bless that. 2nd Timothy 2:15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. Just do your best, pray and then is when His grace will come upon you. Dan |
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Post by Yedidyah on Dec 25, 2013 17:22:27 GMT -8
Shalom! I know this is one of those hard time of the year days for many but we have to remember to stand strong for what we believe in. I think everyone would agree that this day has nothing to do with the Messiah's birth so we need to be careful not to add to the false traditions of men by making such claims. Alon made a great reference to the feast days and Sukkot. I have enclosed a few teachings that have to do with some of the questions or comments that have been shared on this thread. I hope it brings some incite and encouragement to turn some eyes and hearts to the feast days. And if one is not able I hope they are praying that doors would be opened in order to keep the Sabbath and Feast days that Hashem commanded. One must learn to trust and sometimes that means stepping into that trust by acting against our own human desires for our own comfort zones. The fact is we cannot as believers celebrate a pagan day. We cannot mix the Holy with the profane. Here is an interesting verse that helps us better understand the problem with people trying to make good out of evil. Job 14:4 4 Who can bring what is pure from something impure? No one! "No one" there is not a person on earth who can make good out of the "X" day Under traditional Jewish thought is that if a meal has been prepared for such an event that it brings glory to pagan gods or idolatry we are forbidden to participate because in doing so we are in turn a participant of their Idolatry. I know everyone on here is at different walks of life and we need to be sensitive to that. We are all growing and should continue to grow if we allow Hashem to lead us in our walk. My family personally will not participate in anything "X" related (Like how I avoid saying the word) I know not everyone is at the point to be so bold and may never be but we still need to do our best with sharing truth and keeping ones who do keep such days within our prayers. We should be more excited to keep Shabbat than the world is about such days. We need to direct our attention and our hearts to spending time in prayer at the appointed times so that our prayers are the offerings of our lips. Let's worship Hashem in Truth and leave the world outside. May we all strive to walk closer and more intimate with the King of Kings. I pray some may find this encouraging and yet challenging. May you all be blessed and I really pray your walk grows deeper the more time you spend with Hashem our King! Here are the links, www.torahresource.com/EnglishArticles/Are%20Festivals%20for%20Today.pdfwww.synagoguechm.com/articles/whyidontcelebratechristmas.pdfBless and Keep, Yedidyah |
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Post by Questor on Dec 25, 2013 17:44:36 GMT -8
It's 12:20 on Dec 25th and I just feel the urge to say "bah, humbug!" (or something similar ... ). Questor, I'm generally the one observing things quietly on Shabbat and feasts. I know it's kind of like creative work, but I try and mostly study the Word on those days. Or I'll study what the feast day is about, or how it relates to prophecy. We talk about it (when she's not yelling or doing that silent thing), and we try to work it out. But she is stubborn ... [img src=" ![]() ![]() i49.tinypic.com/207l2d3.gif"] [/img][/img] Dan C[/quote] I pretty much do the same thing...to me, reading in or of or about the Word is my greatest relaxation and enjoyment. I, to my friends and acquaintance, evidently seem more and more Jewish, though I just do not work on Saturday, and to me, work is gainful employment...not making dinner, or tending to my plants in the greenhouse (just like a cow that needs to be milked, plants need to be looked after). I don't ask them not to do so...but evidently my just asking to not be called on Saturday's unless it's about Godstuff was enough to make me a little freaky in their eyes, and they are devout Believers in Yeshua...just all different flavors. I have never participated in a Sabbath day as it is done by Jews, so I have no idea what is done, except go to the synagogue on Friday night, and to shul on Saturday...which I presume is a study of the Scriptures. I do know that a lot of cooking goes on in preparation, and that to many Jews, shabbot is looked forward to with much anticipation. I remember, in my beginning with adhering to the Scriptures that after the first week of turning off the TV and the phones, I began to look forward to the quietness alone, so much so that all my days are like that to the greatest extent I can make them now. But somehow, after dark on Fridays, I remember, and call out, "Good Shabbot, Abba." And when I wake on Saturday, as well. Keeping shabbot doesn't keep me from doing anything if it's centered around YHVH, doing Godstuff, and resting from employment. It doesn't keep me from the internet, or using other people provided services, like electricity, but then, I don't remind Abba to stop the universe for the day either, and tell Him it's okay Not to protect me! If I could decree that everything be automated on Saturdays, I would. On the other hand, except for checking for emergency eMails (it better be an emergency...or a God question), I am fighting to only be on sites where YHVH is talked of. I do stumble, and forget myself, but then I catch myself, apologize, and try not to do it again. ::  :: |
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Post by alon on Dec 25, 2013 22:39:30 GMT -8
Thanks for the links. You bring up some tough points here; things I have been struggling with. ... The fact is we cannot as believers celebrate a pagan day. We cannot mix the Holy with the profane. Here is an interesting verse that helps us better understand the problem with people trying to make good out of evil. Job 14:4 4 Who can bring what is pure from something impure? No one! "No one" there is not a person on earth who can make good out of the "X" day This is very true. A very good point. In trying to work out how to compromise with my wife and be sensitive to her position I have to be careful how far I go. Compromise with evil is itself inherently evil, however compromise to save a marriage and possibly lead your family to the truth isn't unless you disobey God. It's a difficult thing to do, and too often I have to hold a line that makes her angry. Again, fair point. I went to an Xmas meal at my sons today. They had ham, and I got to explain why I couldn't eat it to the other guests. I did eat some vegetables. This is one of those tough ones to deal with. It's family time, and to even partially stomp on the joy of the grandkids or to be conspicuously absent would probably do irreparable damage. I was absent through most of my kids childhood, as I always took the holiday shifts for the OT and to just be away from coworkers for a day and get some things done. The times I was there I wasn't usually all that joyful. So my being gone now would not be seen in a positive light at all. Then there is what it would do to my marriage. I drove around town with my wife tonight and looked at the lights. Honestly, this never did anything for me before I became Messianic. So for me to suffer through this gracefully with her is a pretty big thing. There's more fence mending needed her than on any fair size ranch. Did either of these compromise me before God? Truthfully, I don't know. What is the higher mitzvoth- to witness to my family or to absolutely abstain from even the appearance of compromising to idolatry? It's very difficult, but I suspect either way I may violate Gods Law. You may well have started a trend!  I'll certainly "borrow" (read that shamelessly plagiarize) that line!  Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 6:24:55 GMT -8
Thank you Yedidyah for sharing the links. And for your encouragement. Also, it is good to know that I am not the only one struggling with doing or desiring not to do Christmas like everyone else. Just to read some of the responses here encourages me to continue on in this new path that I have chosen. Yesterday day my husband and I stayed home and did our own thing. We did not go visit friends or relatives. We went for a drive instead and came home and did other things. It was quiet and satisfying. Nor do I feel guilty. Like some of you here who struggle to live the before your loved ones, it can be a challenge for sure. However with that being stated my husband is totally against doing . He debates with others who do. At times I get frustrated and just leave the home for a few hours. So it can be a struggle for me. And read others responses encourages me to keep going. Moriah Ruth |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 26, 2013 10:36:44 GMT -8
I did want to add one more thing to this issue with Christmas.
On Christmas Eve one of my friends wanted me to come over for a visit. I stated that I didn't really want to and that my husband and I had plans to just stay home and relax over the Christmas holidays.
She was insistent and so I told her I will let her know. So I finished doing the dishes and all. I went on Facebook and left her a message stating that I wasn't coming over. That maybe her and I could get together the week after.
Well, she didn't get angry but she showed her disappointment just the same. And I thought to myself, could she not understand that I didn't want to come over? She is there with her husband and she had just came back from visiting with her relatives not too long before that. She did not say much to me and nor has she since then.
Is this really what Christmas is all about, is disappointments and not getting what one wants? Is it really worth it? Is it really about us?
This just had me a bit baffled. To some people they would think that I am being insensitive and unkind. But seriously I wanted to stay home with my husband and enjoy the holidays without all the noise and bustle and frustration.
That is what we did and I do not feel guilty at all about it. Nor do I feel guilty for not visiting with my friend.
Moriah Ruth
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- there are 70 faces to 
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); but just to let him know I wouldn't be at the study tomor- err ..., tonight. He said I was doing the right thing for the right reasons, and fully understood.
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