Tell me about your spiritual journey.

[Deleted]

Caught in between Christianity and Messianic Judaism. Also frustrated and not sure which side I should take. This is my journey thus far. But I am not giving up hope. I see both sides but yet I see that there is some questions to both sides.

[Deleted]

Shalom Eahaddix,

Yes, I do see some merits in both Christianity and MJ as well as drawbacks on both sides.

My question for the Christian faith is where does it state that God did away with the law or destroyed it?

My question for the MJs is, where is God's grace and mercy while obeying His laws?

Moriah Ruth

[alon]

I don't know about google or bing, but I do know that God's grace and mercy are evident all through the Bible, particularly in the TNK (OT). It is in the TNK that we are introduced to God's character and His person.

His grace was evident when as soon as Adam sinned He made a way for humankind to be redeemed. It was on the Ark with Noah and his family as God took them safely through the flood instead of just destroying all mankind. It was there at Mt. Sinai, and later in both the the caves with David and later as David fell on his face and repented after Bathsheba. These and many other stories show God's grace and mercy towards us.

The modern Christian Church has fallen for a lie when they say only the "New Testament" teaches God's grace and mercy. There is nothing, absolutely NOTHING new in the "New Testament."

That said, everything they teach isn't wrong either. I still worship at an Assembly of God church, even though I disagreed with many of their doctrines even before coming to Messianism. And yes, moriahruth, I know how you feel being torn between the two. For me it isn't a question of which is right, but more that it is all that is here. They know of my convictions, and as long as I don't openly solicit converts or bash Christmas they are OK ...

Note too we are talking in broad generalities here. There are "Messianics" out there who I think are more wrong than mainstream Christianity, and there are mainC types out there who are in my opinion outright cults. So to endorse one over the other is kind of meaningless unless we know which ones we are talking about.

This site and the synagogue that sponsors it are (as far as I can tell, having never been there) about as close to the truth as you can get. They are pretty close to what the Rabbi I study under teaches. So I'll endorse them, gladly. The rest ... well, let's just say "caveat emptor," if I can go all Roman on ya' fer a bit.

Dan C

[alon]

Dec 8, 2013 11:34:15 GMT -8 @eahaddix said:

I’ve been noticing that many people who join this board seem to be in a period of personal transition and are, if you will, exploring the “spiritual wilderness”. And I’m quite curious about what they are going through.

I am involved in a 3 ministries in the AoG church where I attend AFTER my Sabbath. They are pretty powerful ministries, and 2 of them really are mainC's efforts to get where Messianism is at. I keep joking with them that they get THIISSSSS close to clearing the fence and becoming Messianic; then they always fall right back in the dung heap! I am also active in a Messianic study done by a rabbi who travels in to a town close enough to me once a week that I can go.

I gave the Rabbi a copy of a song I remembered from my youth, and told him it was Messianic. Any song that starts out "Some say John was a Baptist; Some folks say he was a Jew"- now that just HAS to be Messianic, right there!


The song of course is "Lonesome Valley":

You gotta walk that lonesome valley
You gotta walk it by yourself
Ain't nobody else gonna walk it for you
You gotta walk it by yourself

Point is, if we aren't traversing that "spiritual wilderness," then son, we done took the wrong road!

Dan C

[Deleted]

I don't think Bing and Google will help me in my search as there are so many thoughts and opinions on many areas. Which brings more confusion, frustration for me. And also it overwhelms me. So I stay away from looking or searching for info online when it comes to this sort of thing.

Alon, you spoke my thoughts exactly. The very thoughts and words you used is my thought exactly. Yes, there is no doubt that God showed His grace and mercy with Noah and his family, Moses and many others. I do see that. Also God shows His mercy still even in the NT, however some groups like to over do the grace thing. To the point that their thinking is, "I can do whatever I want and God will still show His grace".

Well in my thinking this is going too far and taking for granted God's grace. And not only that distorting His grace for their own benefit and desire. They are using God's grace to justify why they did what they did without having to repent of what they did. This saddens me that they do this.

And yet on the MJ side I think there is too much thought and doings on one should be keeping the law. Where does God's grace and mercy come in? Where is the talk on His forgiveness, His truth and so forth?

I left MJ for a while because this is all I seen and heard. "You need to follow the law." While yes that is nice but what about the rest?

If my frustration is speaking it is not toward anyone in general.

[alon]

Dec 9, 2013 6:15:55 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

I don't think Bing and Google will help me in my search as there are so many thoughts and opinions on many areas. Which brings more confusion, frustration for me. And also it overwhelms me. So I stay away from looking or searching for info online when it comes to this sort of thing.

Probably wise. The net is a sewer into which every once in a while someone looses a gold piece; a little nugget of truth. It was almost all I had for a while, and trust me I got sideways a lot more than straight there. I thank God for the Rabbi who cares enough to come into the area and teach, and this forum where discussion is held to tight standards. Otherwise, I'd be lost in this journey.

Alon, you spoke my thoughts exactly. The very thoughts and words you used is my thought exactly. Yes, there is no doubt that God showed His grace and mercy with Noah and his family, Moses and many others. I do see that. Also God shows His mercy still even in the NT, however some groups like to over do the grace thing. To the point that their thinking is, "I can do whatever I want and God will still show His grace".

I grew up in a very strict mainstream denomination. And I have to say that for mainC they were probably closer to being doctrinally correct than almost any other (my ever so humble opinion). In fact, my father was a pastor. That message, while never plainly articulated as such still came through very clearly.

Well in my thinking this is going too far and taking for granted God's grace. And not only that distorting His grace for their own benefit and desire. They are using God's grace to justify why they did what they did without having to repent of what they did. This saddens me that they do this.

Couldn't agree more.

And yet on the MJ side I think there is too much thought and doings on one should be keeping the law. Where does God's grace and mercy come in? Where is the talk on His forgiveness, His truth and so forth?

The best advice on this I ever got was to go slowly. Don't think you have to get it all right at once.

There is also a very human tendency that all teachers and instructors and schnucks giving advice must overcome, and that is to try and get you up to where they are all at once. To make matters worse, we, as fallable humans, also want this to happen. Predictably (if we stop and think about it) the result is frustration and failure. You and I are not going to get to where Rabbi Reuel is overnight.

I left MJ for a while because this is all I seen and heard. "You need to follow the law." While yes that is nice but what about the rest?

If my frustration is speaking it is not toward anyone in general.

So yes, you are probably as frustrated as I am. In many ways, as the song I put up says, it is a lonesome path, and in the end we are responsible for what we believe and how we choose that belief to manifest itself in our life. Just be assured that there are many others in this valley in the wilderness who feel the same way as we do. And be assured God is there, His grace and mercy abundant. So forget men if they push too hard too fast. Just keep walking the path God illuminates. He doesn't expect us to get there suddenly, or to do what we cannot.

We can rest in His grace, without trying to take advantage of it.

Dan C

[alon]

Dec 8, 2013 20:05:30 GMT -8 @eahaddix said:

Of course, both sides do have answers to your respective questions.

Yes, both have answers. The problem is that all too often these answers conflict. I don't think I could worship any more with mainC if I didn't have a grounded point of reference with solid Messianic teachings.

Do you have a synagogue or yeshiva of sorts close enough to you where you can study? Do you trust their teachings? The internet is a poor alternative to actual face to face instruction. Even here we are somewhat limited in our interaction by the one dimensionality of the medium. And this is the only really good site I've found for instruction and interaction!

If there isn't anything close by, I'd recommend traveling when you can to be with like minded believers, and to see what all is out there. And keep looking.

I looked here for a over a year and found nothing close. The synagogue I currently study with was established in the region about the time I quit looking. It was another year before I stumbled across it. So hang in there and keep trying, regardless your circumstance.

Dan C

[Deleted]

Thank you Alon for you kind godly wisdom.

[Frank T. Clark]

In my journey through the spiritual wilderness, I have found that I can and must depend primarily and completely on the Bible. I have been told many things by many people that were lies or simply misleading. When I study the Word, God provides guidance. It is not always immediate and without struggle but it comes.

Jer 29:11 For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the LORD, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Jer 29:12 And ye shall call upon Me, and go, and pray unto Me, and I will hearken unto you.
Jer 29:13 And ye shall seek Me, and find Me, when ye shall search for Me with all your heart.
Jer 29:14 And I will be found of you, saith the LORD, and I will turn your captivity, and gather you from all the nations, and from all the places whither I have driven you, saith the LORD; and I will bring you back unto the place whence I caused you to be carried away captive.

I believe this is speaking about much more than just the ancient Babylon captivity. Isn't Christianity currently captive to "Babylon".

Rev 18:2 And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird...
Rev 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

I find the Internet valuable as a source for ideas to compare to scripture and harden my heart against the temptations and deceptions.

Isa 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

I didn't mean to say so much...

[Questor]

Dec 8, 2013 19:24:59 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Shalom Eahaddix,

Yes, I do see some merits in both Christianity and MJ as well as drawbacks on both sides.

My question for the Christian faith is where does it state that God did away with the law or destroyed it?

My question for the MJs is, where is God's grace and mercy while obeying His laws?

Moriah Ruth

Ruth my sister...you seem very saddened at not seeing a way to have the best of both the service of obedience, and the grace and mercy of G-d's love.

You must have both. Yeshua never said to stop following God's laws. The confusion in the Christian Churches is that many of them confuse Sh'aul's continuous mention of grace as a license to break the law, when he never said that...in fact, he said "God forbid!"

Romans 3:22-31 (KJV)
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Yeshua always wanted us to keep the commandments. He wanted obedience. He wanted us to Love YHVH with all of our mind, soul and strength, and our neighbor as ourselves.

And Yeshua specifically calls us to follow Him...and He walked only in obedience to the Scriptures, and to much of the Oral Traditions. He was a Pharisee, as he used many times the expressions that "it is said" referring to the Oral Traditions, rather than always using"It is Written, which references only the Tanakh, even if He knew better when the Pharisee's were getting off track, and adding burdens that YHVH never laid on us.

Yeshua knew that no man could ever follow the perfectly.

He died, having kept the commandments for us all in perfection, taking the curse that we should still face, because no matter how well trained we are in every detail of the Tanakh, and Brit Chadashah, we will not succeed in following it perfectly.

Oh, but how He wants us to attempt it, laying down our desires to act as the world acts, and working daily against the sin nature that is in us by attempting to follow all the Commandments.

This is our task now, to seek out what it written in Scripture...for that is the Word of G-d. The traditions of Judaism and Christianity...we cannot entirely know whether to follow them, and as we work with the Holy Spirit to sort through all that man has made of what YHVH gave us, and the Oral Traditions that were in place at least to Yeshua's own day, remember he had objections to many of them.

And He added a new commandment, that we should love one another as He loved us.

NONE of these commandments can we keep in full, nor should we be in guilt, or the feeling of being wrong, bad and guilty because we cannot. We have a sin nature...a brokenness that is irreparable without the mercy of YHVH, which He gave through Yeshua.

Yeshua came that we might enter into His rest...He has kept all the law for us, that when we fail, His grace covers us.

It is not a license to do more sin, but a generous and merciful lifting of any judgement we may have, or indeed will merit because we are unable, even if we know it all, and attempt it all, if we fail in one small detail, we fail in all of it.

Love G-d, and follow everything He teaches in the whole Bible, and know that when you fall He will catch before you hit the ground, and lift you back onto the path of righteousness, and that He has already suffered for each and every sin we have yet to commit, not to mention all that has been committed by us.

If you remain in guilt and oppression of sorrow, you are throwing Yeshua's actions in His teeth.

He came that we might have life, and have it more abundantly...to enter into His rest...the rest He paid for with agony and great sorrow.

This is the grace, that not only are we forgiven, and made righteous in the Father's eyes...He literally refuses to look at our sin if we are in Mashiach. Our sins are in the sea of forgetfulness, and we are to forget them too, as soon as we have fallen, repented, and gotten back on the path.

We are not to remember our sins, and our wretched human state, because in trust in Yeshua, those sins are as if they have never been.

This is G-d's love and His grace...so that we may walk trustingly in the light, and remember no darkness, and not beat ourselves up for our failures. That is the Adversary, seeking to make you miserable when there is nothing more to be miserable about!

Every time you repent, and turn from your sin, and resolve to do better, and ask for help from the Holy Spirit, you are whole and clean again, and YHVH, Yeshua and the Ruach haKodesh are not angry with you, nor even in sorrow over your failure to get it right.

So, you must put your memory of your sin away as soon as you have gone to YHVH for forgiveness in the name of Yeshua, resolving to do better with His help, and know that from that point on, you are cleansed, and pure, and can be in perfect shalom.

Each day must be a new beginning, a fresh start, because of what Yeshua has already done, and you must forgive yourself your frailties, and turn from the memory of your sin, and walk in the new day as righteously as you can.

Yeshua left us His rest...not normal rest, but the rest of knowing that He had done it all, and we could be in it, always.

John 14:27 (CJB)
27 “What I am leaving with you is shalom — I am giving you my shalom. I don’t give the way the world gives. Don’t let yourselves be upset or frightened.

Ruth, take all of the gift, and be in shalom.

[Deleted]

Questor,

I agree with you when you state that we must have both. We are to follow God's laws and yet have His grace.

What saddens me is that on the Christian side they scream that we are no longer under the law. That if we are then we become legalistic. And yet they over do the grace where they have no repentance of sin.

MJs scream out we must follow the , but they do not talk about how God's grace or how it all fits in.

I must admit though that I do not understand God's grace fully.

Questor, I didn't read all of your input to this however I will later this evening when I have more time.

I guess my struggle is trying to understand how following God's laws and His grace fits together. One day it will come to me.

Many blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

[Yedidyah]

I think the entire points speaks of Grace. Most don't even deserve it yet by HIS Grace we are blessed with the and Mashiach. Why is it that we have a want to try and not follow what has been clearly laid before us. We need to Trust that the Father will help us keep His and that we don't need to fall into sin. We should long for that connection that obedience can bring. Sin Separates us from Hashem so why would we want to fall away from such Grace for any reason. We should always strive better for ourselves or else we miss the mark. If we are to walk like Mashiach then we must look at what Walk he did; the . If we really admire our Rabbi Yeshuah then we will try to imitate and do all we can to be like Him. We fail and that comes with the walk but we must grow from our transgressions or else we are just making excuses for ourselves. We must always strive for the best in our lives and that means giving up control of what we think and dive into the Word so that through the Ruach we can be changed and expanded into what we could have never done on our own.
I think this is an interesting verse to look at

Luke 1:5-6
5 In the days of Herod, King of Y'hudah, there was a cohen named Z'kharyah who belonged to the Aviyah division. His wife was a descendant of Aharon, and her name was Elisheva. 6 Both of them were righteous before God, observing all the mitzvot and ordinances of ADONAI blamelessly.

Blameless! And we know all man has sinned. Is that not grace within itself. This is an interesting topic and I hope to come back to it soon. Shalom!

Yedidyah

[Deleted]

That is a good thought for me to think upon.

[Questor]

Dec 23, 2013 6:11:20 GMT -8 @moriahruth7 said:

Questor,

I agree with you when you state that we must have both. We are to follow God's laws and yet have His grace.

What saddens me is that on the Christian side they scream that we are no longer under the law. That if we are then we become legalistic. And yet they over do the grace where they have no repentance of sin.

MJs scream out we must follow the , but they do not talk about how God's grace or how it all fits in.

I must admit though that I do not understand God's grace fully.

Questor, I didn't read all of your input to this however I will later this evening when I have more time.

I guess my struggle is trying to understand how following God's laws and His grace fits together. One day it will come to me.

Many blessings to you.

Moriah Ruth

Perhaps I understand the pain you are feeling, for I consider myself a Messianic Gentile. I cannot be Christian in the manner of the Denominational Churches, for they do not generally teach obedience, and rarely touch the Tanakh, but I have several good teachers from the Christian denominations that teach obedience, even if they do not specifically teach the , people I access for good teaching by computer, downloading their messages.

I cannot be a Messianic Jew in the sense of pounding on the , the Mishnah and the Talmud, because I am yet working my way through all this with the Holy Spirit, and I am more than happy to rest in grace until I understand more. My lack of obedience generally stems from lack of knowledge and understanding, and my aversion to adopting a culture wholesale just because I am drawn to it in order to follow in the footsteps of Yeshua.

All those that are Believers in Mashiach Yeshua are in Spiritual Israel...but we come from such different cultures, and sets of traditions.

I am grateful that I had no Cultural Tradition to unlearn...I was not brought up with even the mention of G-d, and what I know I know from much reading, and studying under a vast array of teachers, and taking only that which lined up with scripture.

But I also had no cultural protection from the Adversary, and spent almost ten years learning things about the Dark that I thought was a shameful waste, and that had caused permanent damage to me. All knowledge can be used for good, however, so as I backed away from the unclean things like a cat avoiding a puddle of water, YHVH showed me that all these things were for purpose and a use, no matter how unpleasant some of it was, and how dangerous I eventually realized that it was. It is not fun to see how the Adversary works, and how the children of disobedience are being used, but my experience gives me a little insight, and presumably it will be of use some day.

It isn't that the Messianic Jews are not seeing and reveling in the Grace and Love of YHVH through Yeshua, but that they don't talk about it in the terms that Christian Churches do. And those that pound on the as the expense of grace and love for those of us who are Messianic Gentiles...they are afraid that we do not see the necessity to follow , and are afraid for us that we may be those that Yeshua says, "I never knew you," to.

I, on the other hand, being of the Sola Scriptura mental aberration, find it difficult only to see what of the Mishna and Talmud the Holy Spirit would have me take on...and as much of it is cultural, and I live no where near a Messianic Synagogue, I seem to find my own slow blending of some Pharisaic Traditions and some of the Greco-Roman Christian Church Traditions to try and uncover what was being taught in the First Century by the Apostles.

All of us seek the original Nazarene way, but the Nazarenes were mostly Jews, with a sprinkling of Gentile Proselytes added in. They lived, and worked, and worshipped together, and so were very Jewish in their culture, particularly while the Temple still stood. We cannot find our way back to that time, but we can try to bring some of it forward to ours, to take on the that is not in regards to Temple service, and to remember that many of the laws are for men only, and therefore women are dispensed from many, and have less to add to their lives.

I think I find it a more simple task than many others to blend the clear teachings of Tanakh and Brit Chadashah, but only because of no upbringing in either tradition. What is in , I follow, if it makes sense for me after much discussion with the Holy Spirit. Some of it is simply put off for another, later time, because I am being taught other things that open the Hebraic mindset to me. The grace and love and mercy of G-d is always and always, but just as the Christian Churches push away the , we must carefully observe it as the Holy Spirit calls us to do so, and not just because man says so. This is about what G-d wants...for us to be like Yeshua.

I follow all that James required in Acts, but I go further. I read the Tanakh before I understood the Brit Chadashah, so keeping laws did not offend me...some just made no sense in the world I lived in, and some still don't, since there is no Temple, and we have no need for any Cohen Gadol or sacrifice except that which is already in Yeshua.

In this place where Gentile Meets Jew, and our backgrounds clash even though our trust in Yeshua does not, Gentiles must shed some Christian thought, and Jews some Rabbinic thought, and both of us must rest in the grace of Yeshua while obeying as best we know how. It is mostly that Messianic Gentiles must examine and apply , even as Messianic Jews must bend a bit on what we Gentiles follow under until they understand all that they need to of grace. In the mean time, we both need to be kind to one another, and learn from one another, and allow Yeshua to do the judging.

Gentiles in particular must simply decide to slowly work our way through all the , and even the Mishna to see what we should add to our observance, so that we can not only share fellowship with others so unlike us in background, but in time work our way in to the heart of what Yeshua wants from us...to show our love for Him by obedience, not so that we can deserve grace, but that we may show Him how much we love Him.

This is not an easy path for any of us to follow...staying on the straight and narrow is always hard, and become harder the longer you are at it. Moriah Ruth, if you find yourself struggling, know that we all are, and that we are supposed to be pressing onwards towards the goal against increasingly more difficult challenges...it is how we grow and deepen our walk. But the love and grace are never lacking, and the rest of Yeshua is always there to step into, to catch your breath before beginning again.

[Deleted]

Thank you Questor for your encouragement.