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Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 17:18:14 GMT -8
Shalom! I agree that we should be careful to search out the truth but we must come to that in humility. During the six day war there was a campaign from the Rebbe of Chabad trying to get every male Jewish soldier to lay tefillin as a sign of protection for battle. We are in a spiritual battle every single day, how better to prepare for that battle than put on tefillin. Yeshua was a Jew and if we are to be imitators of Him should we not do as he did? Again please do read the teaching that Rabbi R' Reul taught, it is an insightful and a challenging message. In most Jewish Synagogues there is no difference between a native born or one coming into Judaism through conversion (Even Orthodox). I never understood how people are so close to call themselves Gentiles when the word literally means "Of the Nations" So I challenge you with this, are you of the nations, or are you grafted into Israel? If you are part of Israel you are no longer "Of the Nations". Something I think everyone should always think about when coming into the Messianic sect of Judaism; think about the first early converts. They had to learn a new language and had absolutely no say on any of the matters since they came to LEARN the ways of Mashiach. They turned from Paganism. They abandoned everything of their previous lives and literally were a "New Creature" So whenever I get the "It's to Jewish" comments I always think of those willing to give up everything and follow Mashiach Yeshua. How much more Jewish is that Bless and Keep, Yedidyah Your point is well taken, and I agree we are grafted onto Israel. My point here is this: I'm white (except for my red neck). If I were to adopt a black child, he would never look like me. He'd have my name and the same rights and familial obligations as the rest of my children. He would learn to fit in over time. It takes time to learn what to do, what not to do, and more importantly why. It doesn't happen over night. And like the black child, I will never pass for a Jew to other Jews. Nor do I want to from the standpoint of Orthodoxy. I am a convert to the Jewish sect of Messianism, a new man twice over in Yeshua as I was "saved" in a Baptist church and I came to the truth in Messianism. And He still recreates me every day. I am a work in progress. Yes, I want to imulate Yeshua, do as He did. But it is more important to me to understand and do it right than to just do it. Yes, I want to make unsaved Jews "jealous" so they will be more open to the gospel. Possibly this is more through showing them a way to worship and obey that they are able to do, as opposed to my trying to become Orthodox. I've been told that many leave the practice of their religion because even they, who were raised in it, cannot even keep Shabbat as commanded by Rabbinical Judaism. It's impossible, so why keep trying? Shabbat, the most beautiful day of the year is given to us every week! There is a better way to keep it than by just following the rules of Orthodoxy. I'm jealous myself because in my current circumstance I can't keep it as it should be. My wife has softened some on my "little mishigas," as she calls my Messianic bent. So hopefully, in time ... Mark 2:23 One Shabbat Yeshua was passing through some wheat fields; and as they went along, his talmidim began picking heads of grain. 24 The P'rushim said to him, "Look! Why are they violating Shabbat?" 25 He said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? 26 He entered the House of God when Evyatar was cohen gadol and ate the Bread of the Presence," -- which is forbidden for anyone to eat but the cohanim -- "and even gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat; (CJB) There is more to following Yeshua than just the rules of Orthodoxy. Do you really keep all the rules and observe the fences set in place by the sect of Orthodox Judaism, or am I possibly misunderstanding how you mean the term "Orthodox?" Dan C
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Post by Yedidyah on Nov 19, 2013 17:59:00 GMT -8
Shalom! I agree that we should be careful to search out the truth but we must come to that in humility. During the six day war there was a campaign from the Rebbe of Chabad trying to get every male Jewish soldier to lay tefillin as a sign of protection for battle. We are in a spiritual battle every single day, how better to prepare for that battle than put on tefillin. Yeshua was a Jew and if we are to be imitators of Him should we not do as he did? Again please do read the teaching that Rabbi R' Reul taught, it is an insightful and a challenging message. In most Jewish Synagogues there is no difference between a native born or one coming into Judaism through conversion (Even Orthodox). I never understood how people are so close to call themselves Gentiles when the word literally means "Of the Nations" So I challenge you with this, are you of the nations, or are you grafted into Israel? If you are part of Israel you are no longer "Of the Nations". Something I think everyone should always think about when coming into the Messianic sect of Judaism; think about the first early converts. They had to learn a new language and had absolutely no say on any of the matters since they came to LEARN the ways of Mashiach. They turned from Paganism. They abandoned everything of their previous lives and literally were a "New Creature" So whenever I get the "It's to Jewish" comments I always think of those willing to give up everything and follow Mashiach Yeshua. How much more Jewish is that Bless and Keep, Yedidyah Mark 2:23 One Shabbat Yeshua was passing through some wheat fields; and as they went along, his talmidim began picking heads of grain. 24 The P'rushim said to him, "Look! Why are they violating Shabbat?" 25 He said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? 26 He entered the House of God when Evyatar was cohen gadol and ate the Bread of the Presence," -- which is forbidden for anyone to eat but the cohanim -- "and even gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat; (CJB) There is more to following Yeshua than just the rules of Orthodoxy. Do you really keep all the rules and observe the fences set in place by the sect of Orthodox Judaism, or am I possibly misunderstanding how you mean the term "Orthodox?" Dan C I think you must be misunderstanding my point. Like everything we need to look at where it came from and examine if it has a place within our own lives. I don't see wearing Tefillin as being Orthodox in any way. I observe some of the rules and yes even some of the fences set in place but comes first regardless. The alone coming from a Christian background looks Orthodox. I have spoken with Christians who asked why I was Orthodox since I keep the Sabbath day. I just see allot of Christian thoughts come in on if anything is "Jewish" they see it as Orthodox. I am far from Orthodox but praying that Hashem leads me deeper into all the time! I don't want to place any walls up that would prevent me from growing in Mashiach, so I go to the Hashem for guidance on how to walk and live out the in my own life. The verse above goes against even what they were teaching at the time. The field was their plate and they were not gathering in a form of work but rather gathering from plant to mouth. The table was different but the laws of the Sabbath were in no way broken even from an orthodox perspective.
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Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 18:47:57 GMT -8
I think you must be misunderstanding my point. Like everything we need to look at where it came from and examine if it has a place within our own lives. I don't see wearing Tefillin as being Orthodox in any way. I observe some of the rules and yes even some of the fences set in place but comes first regardless. The alone coming from a Christian background looks Orthodox. I have spoken with Christians who asked why I was Orthodox since I keep the Sabbath day. I just see allot of Christian thoughts come in on if anything is "Jewish" they see it as Orthodox. I am far from Orthodox but praying that Hashem leads me deeper into all the time! I don't want to place any walls up that would prevent me from growing in Mashiach, so I go to the Hashem for guidance on how to walk and live out the in my own life. The verse above goes against even what they were teaching at the time. The field was their plate and they were not gathering in a form of work but rather gathering from plant to mouth. The table was different but the laws of the Sabbath were in no way broken even from an orthodox perspective. Thanks. I was beginning to wonder ... Sounds like we are actually pretty close in our approach, which I had thought from earlier discussions. But this "Orthodox" thing had me a bit worried! I'm probably a bit gun-shy anyhow, as in addition to the "Oh, you're a Jew" or "So, you're a gentile trying to become a Jew," or even "Judaizer!" that we all get I have to be careful not to look as though I am "Playing Jew" to my wife's family. I am a believer in Messianic Judaism, a different sect of (take your pick) Judaism or Christianity than either is commonly used to. I am "da blak jentyle chile wot is ben graft'd own-too dat Joo-ish Hebra tree-GLOWRY!-can-ah-get-an-amen-on-dat-bruda!?!" (Hey, I do that better than Yiddish or Ashkenazi-English, ya gotta admit ... ) Dan (still white but hey, it's th' net ...) C
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Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 19:03:24 GMT -8
Wheat- I live in wheat country. I've farmed wheat and been around it for a while. Everyone who is in a field of ripe wheat will invariably shell out a few heads and eat it. It's relaxing, even therapeutic! Some strains even chew up like chewing gum! If I was in a wheat field on Shabbat, I'd shell me out some and eat it, hungry or not! But eating it without rubbing the chaff and blowing it away- that's hardcore man! That's how the Lutherans in Lake Woebegone do it! (Little Garrison Keillor reference there ... ). Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 23:23:19 GMT -8
I think you must be misunderstanding my point. Like everything we need to look at where it came from and examine if it has a place within our own lives. I don't see wearing Tefillin as being Orthodox in any way. I observe some of the rules and yes even some of the fences set in place but comes first regardless. The alone coming from a Christian background looks Orthodox. I have spoken with Christians who asked why I was Orthodox since I keep the Sabbath day. I just see allot of Christian thoughts come in on if anything is "Jewish" they see it as Orthodox. I am far from Orthodox but praying that Hashem leads me deeper into all the time! I don't want to place any walls up that would prevent me from growing in Mashiach, so I go to the Hashem for guidance on how to walk and live out the in my own life. The verse above goes against even what they were teaching at the time. The field was their plate and they were not gathering in a form of work but rather gathering from plant to mouth. The table was different but the laws of the Sabbath were in no way broken even from an orthodox perspective. Thanks. I was beginning to wonder ... Sounds like we are actually pretty close in our approach, which I had thought from earlier discussions. But this "Orthodox" thing had me a bit worried! I'm probably a bit gun-shy anyhow, as in addition to the "Oh, you're a Jew" or "So, you're a gentile trying to become a Jew," or even "Judaizer!" that we all get I have to be careful not to look as though I am "Playing Jew" to my wife's family. I am a believer in Messianic Judaism, a different sect of (take your pick) Judaism or Christianity than either is commonly used to. I am "da blak jentyle chile wot is ben graft'd own-too dat Joo-ish Hebra tree-GLOWRY!-can-ah-get-an-amen-on-dat-bruda!?!" (Hey, I do that better than Yiddish or Ashkenazi-English, ya gotta admit ... ) Dan (still white but hey, it's th' net ...) C So how would you define an Orthodox Jew (I do not mean by the name of religious grouping he may belong to)?
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Post by Yedidyah on Nov 20, 2013 9:17:21 GMT -8
So how would you define an Orthodox Jew (I do not mean by the name of religious grouping he may belong to)? I personally understand Orthodox as a minimal to be complete adherence to the as interpreted in the Talmud. I say as a minimal because then you have the Rabbi's and some are more strict than others. To make it a bottom line starting point I think it is safe to say they must follow as the Talmud states it. I personally am not against the study of the Talmud or any Jewish historical book. I have found insight from reading the Ramban and such but like everything we have to test it. We cannot follow something or make it a practice within our own lives without first seeing what fruit will it add? Just because one may follow some Orthodox standard does not in any way make one Orthodox. Yedidyah
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Post by alon on Nov 20, 2013 9:33:47 GMT -8
So how would you define an Orthodox Jew (I do not mean by the name of religious grouping he may belong to)? The sect, or religious grouping is exactly how I would define it, especially when spelled with a capital "O." In your post, you also described prescribed manners of hair, dress and behavior peculiar to Orthodoxy. They are probably the image most of us have when we think of Jews, but they are only one sect of Judaism. If you mean orthodox in a more general sense, as in some standard which most religious Jews keep- that could tough. Certainly they would keep Shabbat as well as the other moedim. Attending shul (synagogue) and following kasrut. And definitely wearing of tzitziot. Except for where there are excessive fences, as in keeping a kosher kitchen, most Messianism teaches a similar lifestyle and form of worship. The problem is that there is so much variation between not only different sects of Judaism, but in Messianism as well. So definitions of both tend to be very subjective, based on a person's experiences with both. My experience with both is far too limited to give a comprehensive, truly objective definition of either. Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Nov 20, 2013 10:49:31 GMT -8
So how would you define an Orthodox Jew (I do not mean by the name of religious grouping he may belong to)? The sect, or religious grouping is exactly how I would define it, especially when spelled with a capital "O." In your post, you also described prescribed manners of hair, dress and behavior peculiar to Orthodoxy. They are probably the image most of us have when we think of Jews, but they are only one sect of Judaism. If you mean orthodox in a more general sense, as in some standard which most religious Jews keep- that could tough. Certainly they would keep Shabbat as well as the other moedim. Attending shul (synagogue) and following kasrut. And definitely wearing of tzitziot. Except for where there are excessive fences, as in keeping a kosher kitchen, most Messianism teaches a similar lifestyle and form of worship. The problem is that there is so much variation between not only different sects of Judaism, but in Messianism as well. So definitions of both tend to be very subjective, based on a person's experiences with both. My experience with both is far too limited to give a comprehensive, truly objective definition of either. Dan C I was referring in my response to the actual OP, to Orthodox with a capital 'O' which is what the OP seemed to want to be, given that he want to lay tefillin - a fairly good hall mark of Orthodoxy ( I live half a mile from a very large Chabad Synagogue, as well as a few others, from Reform to Ultra Orthodox, so I see many varieties of Jews). I couldn't see why one who was a Christian wanted to make that much of a leap first off, when he didn't even know what goes in the box on the fore-head. We already have in the UK Gentiles who are trying to be more Orthodox than the most zealous Chasidic Jews. It doesn't work and causes a lot of problems. Apart from your and my initial post we have been able to respond to the OP with a wider view-point following the further self-disclosures. So, there was no surprise about Orthodox(y), I was merely going by what the OP had posted at that point in time. The view changed a bit when the OP gave more information.
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Post by alon on Nov 20, 2013 12:53:36 GMT -8
That was pretty good. Thanks. Dan C
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Post by alon on Nov 20, 2013 13:04:54 GMT -8
... It doesn't work and causes a lot of problems. ... Very true, however recall when you first started down the path to discovering what Messianism is, and more importantly the truth about what God wants and expects from you. It's easy to get ahead of yourself and delve into areas which should be approached with more caution. Just be happy he found a solid site where he can ask questions instead of one of the HR or Sacred Names or other wild "sects" of Messianism. Hopefully the group/Synagogue he has found is also solid in their teachings. I feel very fortunate that I found this and also that a good, knowledgeable Rabbi comes to a town close enough I can go once a week (tonight, actually) and get solid instruction. But it's a journey of trial and more trials, a few errors and a lot of joy when it is right. Shalom Dan
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Post by alon on Nov 20, 2013 13:22:19 GMT -8
... I personally am not against the study of the Talmud or any Jewish historical book. I have found insight from reading the Ramban and such but like everything we have to test it. We cannot follow something or make it a practice within our own lives without first seeing what fruit will it add? ... The Talmud is commentary, and should be taken as such. No different than reading the works of Matthew Henry, except that many writers in the Talmud can make the claim "I was there." All commentary must be read with discernment, as you say. This is one place where Messianism and much (not all) of Judaism diverge. Many Jews believe that the Talmud is a sacred document, given to Noach at Mt. Sinai at the same time as ; and is in fact a higher authority than the TNK. We absolutely reject this interpretation. We hold 1st, the Prophets and writings next, and the B'rit Chadashah next in agreement, but all equal in divine revelation. All other is commentary, still good for instruction but never equal to God's Word. Dan C
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Post by dovescom on Nov 20, 2013 14:56:19 GMT -8
Thank you all for your insight. One of the main things I was asking, though it might not have come out that way, was this; is there any thing in the that dictates the size, shape, style of tefillin? I do not see it as Orthodoxy, but of simply fulfilling the Lords commandments to wear his word on head and hand. Is there anything scripturally wrong with my idea of putting the parchment in a leather wrist brace, for the hand, and maybe give me advice for how to make something for the head, I am looking for something that can be worn all day, not just at prayer. As for the fish\shrimp thing not an issue I am deadly allergic to ALL forms of seafood, if it swims I can not eat it. Yours in Christ
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Miykhael
Junior Member
To proclaim the Good News of Salvation for our Messiah's return draws near!!!!
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Post by Miykhael on Nov 20, 2013 20:37:51 GMT -8
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Post by alon on Nov 21, 2013 10:55:12 GMT -8
Rabbi told a funny story last night at class. A woman called to meet with him who had been attending Synagogue over on the coast. She assured him that she "knew all about Messianism." So he agreed to meet with her at a restaurant, and they talked about her problem. It was soon evident that she knew very little about Messianism, which was confirmed when he arose to leave. She asked, "Oh! What are those strings hanging out from under your shirt?" Dan C
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Post by Deleted on Nov 21, 2013 15:11:54 GMT -8
Rabbi told a funny story last night at class. A woman called to meet with him who had been attending Synagogue over on the coast. She assured him that she "knew all about Messianism." So he agreed to meet with her at a restaurant, and they talked about her problem. It was soon evident that she knew very little about Messianism, which was confirmed when he arose to leave. She asked, "Oh! What are those strings hanging out from under your shirt?" Dan C
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