|
|
Post by dovescom on Nov 18, 2013 10:45:19 GMT -8
As a Christian who has recently felt call by G-d to look into the Jewish roots of Christianity; after all how can one really follow Jesus unless you understand the culture from which he sprang. As I look more and more into the writings of Moses, I see G-d commanding certain things and am feeling called(I guess that's the best way to describe it) to follow the  commands more closely. I have a friend who is a Messianic Jew, and he has told me that before I knew about the Laws, it held no meaning for me, but now that I am learning about them, I am responsible before G-d to follow them. I have already given up pork, after my friend called me on my food choices I was violently ill after eating some roast pork, but no one else in my family was affected. So is it permissible for a non-Jew to wear the tefillin\Tzitzit? |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 0:35:45 GMT -8
... As I look more and more into the writings of Moses, I see G-d commanding certain things and am feeling called(I guess that's the best way to describe it) to follow the commands more closely. ... So is it permissible for a non-Jew to wear the tefillin\Tzitzit? I think you answered your own question before you asked it. If it is commanded by God, then you should do it ... usually. There are exceptions. As my Rabbi explained it to me, Jewish thought is not as black and white as our Western/Christian training teaches us to be. There are higher mitzvoth (instructions/commandments) which must be considered. For example, generally the preservation of life is a higher mitzvoth. If you are working around machinery that may draw you in if they are entangled then you should not wear them; at least not externally. Even on a belt loop which may break away, damaging equipment is frowned upon by employers. You need to keep your job to feed the family so I'd say take 'em off. But generally yes, I think we should. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by dovescom on Nov 19, 2013 4:50:23 GMT -8
As I am medically retired safety in the work place is not an issue. As for the tefillin can I simply make a leather band for my wrist and put the parchment there? Also what verse(s) go on the parchment? I am still trying to figure out how to wear it on my head all the time.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 6:13:53 GMT -8
As I am medically retired safety in the work place is not an issue. As for the tefillin can I simply make a leather band for my wrist and put the parchment there? Also what verse(s) go on the parchment? I am still trying to figure out how to wear it on my head all the time. Please permit me to be candid / forthright with you. If you are not a Jew then why make yourself to look like one - isn't that mis-representation, isn't it a lie to mis-lead people in this way? If you dress like an orthodox Jew by laying teffilin, surely you should use the real thing and at least know what it is about and which Scripture portion goes in the box on your head! Are you going to be circumcised? Are you prepared to be treated like a Jew, whether for good or bad? Wanting to be an orthodox Jew also means having a kosher kitchen and utensils, you should eat according to the kashrut laws. You must observe all the Feasts and so on and on and on, and dress in the traditional manner with a tallit katan and an appropriate head covering, as well as growing your hair in the right places. Are you prepared to do all this and go to shul each Shabbat - who would believe you are an Orthodox Jew if you do not appear at Shul? oi vey! But that would be your immediate un-doing because they would spot very quickly that you are not a Jew, let alone an Orthodox Jew, especially if the leather tefillin is home-made. Do you have a prayer book and Hebrew / English bible? Do you observe Shabbat properly and at the right time - the questions are many but this is only touching the surface of things you should know / do / have, if you want to pass yourself off as an Orthodox Jew which is what you seem to want to do. Have you read carefully and learned what Judaism is really all about - your OP would seem to indicate not. If you are not prepared for all this, at least, best stick to being a Gentile with no pretense to be what you are not, but with growing Messianic understandings as are a number of us, who seem to know more about Judaism than you have grasped at this point.  |
|
|
|
Post by dovescom on Nov 19, 2013 7:03:03 GMT -8
First of all, I am not planning on imitating the orthodox Jew, I am working on making a tallit katan, with a Jewish friend supplying the tassels for the corners. As for going to a synagogue, I am currently going to a small messianic one in Montreal. As for the homemade Tefillin, the bible does not state how to make one, therefore my interpretation is as valid as anyone's, the simply states to bind it upon your hand and on your forehead. As for eating kosher, well I have found that I can not eat pork any more, other than that no real difference in my eating habits, I eat more chicken, and since you don't milk a chicken I don't have to worry about boiling the kid in it's mothers milk, so I'm good for dairies. Prayer book, since I am not imitating the Jews why would I need one? Hebrew\English bible, well I don't at this time read Hebrew so not necessary, I use the next best thing that I could find and that is the Complete Jewish Bible by David Stern, checked against the World English Bible:Hebrew Names Version. |
|
|
|
Post by dovescom on Nov 19, 2013 7:11:38 GMT -8
Forgot to mention that I was circumcised at birth as was the custom 50 years ago in the hospital where I was born, so that is not and issue, even if Acts 15 had not made it plain that being circumcise was not a requirement to following Jesus, however, it also talks about the laws of Moses being taught every Shabbat in the synagogues
|
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Nov 19, 2013 9:56:12 GMT -8
Shalom! Ok first of all Baruch Hashem that you are seeing the still does indeed matter for a healthy walk today. First to Hebers comments about trying to be Orthodox by wearing Tzitzit and Tefillin, these are commands for all of Hashem’s Children so do we then have a different set of rules for the children whether through maternal or adoption? I don’t think so. I think the is for everyone who takes hold of it and there is no picking and choosing which parts you wish to follow but rather praying that Hashem makes a way for you to keep as many Mitzvot as possible. To directly pick a command and not keep it because you think it looks to Orthodox does not make it an ok excuse not to do it. I think that our tzitzit should be done the way it has been kept by the Jewish people for thousands of years. I also think we should be careful not to do our own things when it comes to Tefillin. I personally believe that the Tefillin today is the same as what Yeshua wore. For me the way it is made and scriptures they chose to place inside it are more than some manmade tradition. It bothers me when people come into and are so quick to dismiss anything Jewish and go their own way. So many coming out of basic traditional Christian thought that the law was done away with come into and within a few weeks are already pointing out everything wrong with the “Jewish” way of doing things. My point is many of us haven’t been doing it right, so we need to come to understanding with humility or else we are walking in the same paths that lead the church’s separation from the Synagogues in the first place, arrogance of thinking they know how to do things better. If anyone does not see the beauty of the way the tefillin is made or the way the Tzitzit is tied needs to spend some time praying with the Father for guidance on what He wants for us. How are you going to make anyone jealous by attacking some of the more beautiful aspects of Judaism? Romans 11:11-15 11 "In that case, I say, isn't it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?" Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. a 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world - that is, if Isra'el's being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter - how much greater riches will Isra'el in its fullness bring them! 13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work 14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them! 15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead! Dovescom here is a good thread on the tzitzit, theloveofgod.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clothing&action=display&thread=2233Here is a good teaching on the tefillin. www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/Eikev_storinguptheword.pdfBless and Keep, Yedidyah |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 10:13:55 GMT -8
Shalom! Ok first of all Baruch Hashem that you are seeing the still does indeed matter for a healthy walk today. First to Hebers comments about trying to be Orthodox by wearing Tzitzit and Tefillin, these are commands for all of Hashem’s Children so do we then have a different set of rules for the children whether through maternal or adoption? I don’t think so. I think the is for everyone who takes hold of it and there is no picking and choosing which parts you wish to follow but rather praying that Hashem makes a way for you to keep as many Mitzvot as possible. To directly pick a command and not keep it because you think it looks to Orthodox does not make it an ok excuse not to do it. I think that our tzitzit should be done the way it has been kept by the Jewish people for thousands of years. I also think we should be careful not to do our own things when it comes to Tefillin. I personally believe that the Tefillin today is the same as what Yeshua wore. For me the way it is made and scriptures they chose to place inside it are more than some manmade tradition. It bothers me when people come into and are so quick to dismiss anything Jewish and go their own way. So many coming out of basic traditional Christian thought that the law was done away with come into and within a few weeks are already pointing out everything wrong with the “Jewish” way of doing things. My point is many of us haven’t been doing it right, so we need to come to understanding with humility or else we are walking in the same paths that lead the church’s separation from the Synagogues in the first place, arrogance of thinking they know how to do things better. If anyone does not see the beauty of the way the tefillin is made or the way the Tzitzit is tied needs to spend some time praying with the Father for guidance on what He wants for us. How are you going to make anyone jealous by attacking some of the more beautiful aspects of Judaism? Romans 11:11-15 11 "In that case, I say, isn't it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?" Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. a 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world - that is, if Isra'el's being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter - how much greater riches will Isra'el in its fullness bring them! 13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work 14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them! 15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead! Dovescom here is a good thread on the tzitzit, theloveofgod.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clothing&action=display&thread=2233Here is a good teaching on the tefillin. www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/Eikev_storinguptheword.pdfBless and Keep, Yedidyah I'll answer you and dovescom in one post. For you - I was not saying that one should not follow the law insofar as we are able, in this day and age. You had the benefit of extra posts the OP made, unlike me! For dovescom - the OP was a more than a little disingenuous in his self disclosure. What I said was that to dress and appear to the world to be an Orthodox Jew, which is what he would appear as if he lays tefillin, is, at best, mis-leading, at worse it is living a lie BECAUSE the OP led us to believe that he was just another Christian wannabee Jew and had very little knowledge of what being a Jew actually meant (he doesn't even know what goes in the box on the forehead) - he conveniently forgot to mention all the other stuff he now claims; that is considerably less than helpful and honest. I shall bear in mind the tendency he has to post only some of the facts. |
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Nov 19, 2013 10:24:27 GMT -8
Shalom! Ok first of all Baruch Hashem that you are seeing the still does indeed matter for a healthy walk today. First to Hebers comments about trying to be Orthodox by wearing Tzitzit and Tefillin, these are commands for all of Hashem’s Children so do we then have a different set of rules for the children whether through maternal or adoption? I don’t think so. I think the is for everyone who takes hold of it and there is no picking and choosing which parts you wish to follow but rather praying that Hashem makes a way for you to keep as many Mitzvot as possible. To directly pick a command and not keep it because you think it looks to Orthodox does not make it an ok excuse not to do it. I think that our tzitzit should be done the way it has been kept by the Jewish people for thousands of years. I also think we should be careful not to do our own things when it comes to Tefillin. I personally believe that the Tefillin today is the same as what Yeshua wore. For me the way it is made and scriptures they chose to place inside it are more than some manmade tradition. It bothers me when people come into and are so quick to dismiss anything Jewish and go their own way. So many coming out of basic traditional Christian thought that the law was done away with come into and within a few weeks are already pointing out everything wrong with the “Jewish” way of doing things. My point is many of us haven’t been doing it right, so we need to come to understanding with humility or else we are walking in the same paths that lead the church’s separation from the Synagogues in the first place, arrogance of thinking they know how to do things better. If anyone does not see the beauty of the way the tefillin is made or the way the Tzitzit is tied needs to spend some time praying with the Father for guidance on what He wants for us. How are you going to make anyone jealous by attacking some of the more beautiful aspects of Judaism? Romans 11:11-15 11 "In that case, I say, isn't it that they have stumbled with the result that they have permanently fallen away?" Heaven forbid! Quite the contrary, it is by means of their stumbling that the deliverance has come to the Gentiles, in order to provoke them to jealousy. a 12 Moreover, if their stumbling is bringing riches to the world - that is, if Isra'el's being placed temporarily in a condition less favored than that of the Gentiles is bringing riches to the latter - how much greater riches will Isra'el in its fullness bring them! 13 However, to those of you who are Gentiles I say this: since I myself am an emissary sent to the Gentiles, I make known the importance of my work 14 in the hope that somehow I may provoke some of my own people to jealousy and save some of them! 15 For if their casting Yeshua aside means reconciliation for the world, what will their accepting him mean? It will be life from the dead! Dovescom here is a good thread on the tzitzit, theloveofgod.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=clothing&action=display&thread=2233Here is a good teaching on the tefillin. www.synagoguechm.com/drashot/Eikev_storinguptheword.pdfBless and Keep, Yedidyah I'll answer you and dovescom in one post. For you - I was not saying that one should not follow the law insofar as we are able, in this day and age. For dovescom - the OP was a more than a little disingenuous in his self disclosure. What I said was that to dress and appear to the world to be an Orthodox Jew, which is what he would appear as if he lays tefillin, is, at best, mis-leading, at worse it is living a lie BECAUSE the OP led us to believe that he was just another Christian wannabee Jew and had very little knowledge of what being a Jew actually meant (he doesn't even know what goes in the box on the forehead) - he conveniently forgot to mention all the other stuff he now claims; that is considerably less than helpful and honest. I shall bear in mind the tendency he has to post only some of the facts and not respond to him again. Shalom Heber, So in the same sense we both in our own way were saying some of the same things, am I wrong? That some people "Jump" into with all the answers? |
|
|
|
Post by dovescom on Nov 19, 2013 11:32:30 GMT -8
The main reason I am looking to make my own is so I can wear it all day, I do not see how the modern Tefillin can be worn the day through. Also I can not afford the $200+ to buy "proper Tefillin". So I should not make a leather wristband and secure the parchment within? As I have said before I do not wish to imitate Jews, I am merely look to obey G-d who has redeemed me by faith. It is because of my faith that I am now looking into following the . I have been having questions on how a Christian can follow Jesus with out understanding who he was, how he was raised, and his culture. This is what has lead me to the point where I am asking the questions in my "op", if I left too much unsaid, then please ask me to clarify the point you think is missing details. yours in Christ |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 11:36:53 GMT -8
The main reason I am looking to make my own is so I can wear it all day, I do not see how the modern Tefillin can be worn the day through. Also I can not afford the $200+ to buy "proper Tefillin". So I should not make a leather wristband and secure the parchment within? As I have said before I do not wish to imitate Jews, I am merely look to obey G-d who has redeemed me by faith. It is because of my faith that I am now looking into following the . I have been having questions on how a Christian can follow Jesus with out understanding who he was, how he was raised, and his culture. This is what has lead me to the point where I am asking the questions in my "op", if I left too much unsaid, then please ask me to clarify the point you think is missing details. yours in Christ Sorry, it is not possible to ask you for information I think you may not have volunteered - how would I know  |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Nov 19, 2013 11:40:37 GMT -8
I'll answer you and dovescom in one post. For you - I was not saying that one should not follow the law insofar as we are able, in this day and age. For dovescom - the OP was a more than a little disingenuous in his self disclosure. What I said was that to dress and appear to the world to be an Orthodox Jew, which is what he would appear as if he lays tefillin, is, at best, mis-leading, at worse it is living a lie BECAUSE the OP led us to believe that he was just another Christian wannabee Jew and had very little knowledge of what being a Jew actually meant (he doesn't even know what goes in the box on the forehead) - he conveniently forgot to mention all the other stuff he now claims; that is considerably less than helpful and honest. I shall bear in mind the tendency he has to post only some of the facts and not respond to him again. Shalom Heber, So in the same sense we both in our own way were saying some of the same things, am I wrong? That some people "Jump" into with all the answers? Yes, I think so. Now we know more about the OP it is a little easier to follow, but only a little easier |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 14:32:23 GMT -8
We've all been where the OP is at right now- new to the truth, we have/had little understanding what the truth is or what questions to ask. At least he's looking, as am I. Orthodoxy- up front, I have no intention of becoming or imitating an Orthodox Jew. Orthodoxy is merely one sect of Judaism, and an extreme one at that. It is based on absolute rabbinical control of every aspect of your life. I am a gentile- born, bred and raised. I doubt I could ever meet the standards of Orthodoxy even if there was a Synagogue closer than almost 200 miles of me! And I'd always be a phony, an imposter. I can however read , and the commands of God are easily seen and done. Even then I am moving far too slowly towards observance. And when I am confused I can ask either here or at class when the Rabbi comes on Wednesdays. Remember too that everyone has an opinion, and these differ vastly. Seek godly counsel and prayerfully do as led by the Ruach. I don't yet lay Teffilin. At some point they will give another class and then, after learning to do it correctly, what the meaning is behind what I'm doing and why; I'll purchase a set when I can and start. And I trust God will make the way coincide with the means so I can purchase a proper set. I am a Messianic gentile, grafted onto the Jewish stock. I certainly believe in the beauty of Judaism- it is what God designed and intended for all of us! I try to learn from across the spectrum of Judaism today, from orthodox to liberal, and even those who are Jewish by birth but not by faith, yet who still hold to many of the traditions. I don't however believe I must take an extreme stance to be Messianic; and God help me when I try to take the liberal stance because it is more convenient. Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling is good advice I heard somewhere ... (probably Phil 2:12). I'll probably change my mind many times, as is already the case. It's a process. dovescom is on the right path, but he is just beginning. Take my comments as opinion, but it's where I am at now only about three years ahead of you. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Nov 19, 2013 16:06:31 GMT -8
Knew I was forgetting something- to follow the dietary laws set forth in , you are giving up more than pork. Shellfish (no more shrimp), catfish (no scales, and I'm a Southern boy!), rabbits, porcupines and other cute fuzzy critters ... . I actually have gotten to where not eating pork (even bacon) doesn't bother me. But some of the other stuff is a bit hard at times. It is however a good witness, and worth it to do as I'm told anyhow. As Dr. Laura Schlesinger used to say, "A principle isn't a principle until it's cost you something." At least I don't have to skin out any more procupines. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Nov 19, 2013 16:37:15 GMT -8
Shalom! I agree that we should be careful to search out the truth but we must come to that in humility. During the six day war there was a campaign from the Rebbe of Chabad trying to get every male Jewish soldier to lay tefillin as a sign of protection for battle. We are in a spiritual battle every single day, how better to prepare for that battle than put on tefillin. Yeshua was a Jew and if we are to be imitators of Him should we not do as he did? Again please do read the teaching that Rabbi R' Reul taught, it is an insightful and a challenging message. In most Jewish Synagogues there is no difference between a native born or one coming into Judaism through conversion (Even Orthodox). I never understood how people are so close to call themselves Gentiles when the word literally means "Of the Nations" So I challenge you with this, are you of the nations, or are you grafted into Israel? If you are part of Israel you are no longer "Of the Nations". Something I think everyone should always think about when coming into the Messianic sect of Judaism; think about the first early converts. They had to learn a new language and had absolutely no say on any of the matters since they came to LEARN the ways of Mashiach. They turned from Paganism. They abandoned everything of their previous lives and literally were a "New Creature" So whenever I get the "It's to Jewish" comments I always think of those willing to give up everything and follow Mashiach Yeshua. How much more Jewish is that Bless and Keep, Yedidyah |
|
commands more closely. I have a friend who is a Messianic Jew, and he has told me that before I knew about the 
