|
|
Post by alon on Jun 19, 2013 10:19:05 GMT -8
In the latest "Yachad" (publication of the IFCJ) Yael Eckstein talks again about one of her favorite topics, Shabbat. She always speaks of it as a time of reverence and "true joy."
She starts with a famous saying that "more than the Jews have kept the Shabbat, the Shabbat has kept the Jews." She posits that through the centuries of persecution, she is certain that "it has been the weekly celebration of Shabbat that has enabled us to keep our faith and family intact."
What do you think; does the way we keep Shabbat/Sabbath have any effect on how we relate to our faith? What about its effects on familial relations, and even on national unity?
|
|
|
|
Post by Frank T. Clark on Jun 20, 2013 5:29:39 GMT -8
Your question raises many thoughts. One thought.
Obedience to God's command to observe the Sabbaths (weekly and yearly), as with all obedience, brings us closer to God and His plan. This definitely should increase our faith! This should improve our relationships with family and with others...
The benefits of obedience keep adding and multiplying...
|
|
|
|
Post by messianicmama on Jun 20, 2013 21:27:09 GMT -8
I will say this- Sabbath is, in some ways a litmus test of how much we value the  . It's a simple command- rest, do no work, commemorate Him. I understand that there are different interpretations on how to keep it, but so many Messianics simply don't keep it. They won't ask their boss for the day off, or they don't prepare ahead so they have to break it, or they spend the whole day doing what they want to do and not focusing on Him. It breaks my heart because generally, these are the people screaming at Christians for not keeping the sabbath themselves. Sabbath keeping makes you a walking testimony. If your non- living friends see you at the grocery store on a sabbath or at work on a sabbath, that says, "I might say that is important, but it isn't as important as doing what I want to do." |
|
|
|
Post by Tuviya ben-Chesed on Jun 20, 2013 21:39:29 GMT -8
What do you think; does the way we keep Shabbat/Sabbath have any effect on how we relate to our faith? What about its effects on familial relations, and even on national unity? I appreciate Yeshua's teaching that "Shabbat was made for man ..." (Mark 2:27). Our Creator knows us better than we know ourselves; so He gave us a weekly day of rest. We weren't designed to work 24/7 as modern employers claim. I'm sure that Sabbath-keeping promotes unity in Israel. In the U.S., however, it can lead to conflicts. American society definitely is not Shabbat-friendly. Although anti-discrimination law requires employers to reasonably accommodate employees' religious needs (e.g., by allowing time off for Sabbaths and holidays), Sabbath-observance can prevent employees from advancing above entry-level positions. Keeping the Sabbath in the U.S. often requires great commitment and considerable sacrifice, but God blesses the people who do it. |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 1, 2014 2:49:43 GMT -8
... Keeping the Sabbath in the U.S. often requires great commitment and considerable sacrifice, but God blesses the people who do it. Agreed. Our society is based on Christian tradition of a 1st day rest; and even that is coming more and more under attack. And Christians never have (by and large) truly "rested." Being raised in that tradition it is difficult for me to rest on Shabbat.
I have to continually remind myself not to do things that are creative work, just plain work, or financial "work." I'm not as strict about it as Rabbinical Judaism. For instance, I do turn lights on and off, and will get on the computer. But I try not to do work or financial transactions.
I will however help my family; like a few weeks ago I helped my son move. It is the only time he had to do it, and I have to believe that family is important- something I was not raised with in respect to the church. My Dad believed in God, the Southern Baptist Church, and then if you had time left over and felt like it, family. I was the same raising my kids (except mine was mostly selfish interests, not the church). I won't do that to them now. I'll also fire up the grill and have family over for burgers (and yes, I eat cheeseburgers, in case anyone is wondering- but no pork; beef franks for the kids). Family time, that sense of "community" as my wife puts it, is important to me now.
I'll also do a mitzvah if it can't wait. According to the rabbi (my rabbi?), a mitzvah is always acceptable. And I'll help with "church" ministries that I agree with (there's that "community" thing again).
Am I wrong? Not committed enough? I do ask this often, but never when I reflect on it do I feel convicted otherwise.
Mark 2:24 The P'rushim said to him, "Look! Why are they violating Shabbat?" 25 He said to them, "Haven't you ever read what David did when he and those with him were hungry and needed food? 26 He entered the House of God when Evyatar was cohen gadol and ate the Bread of the Presence," -- which is forbidden for anyone to eat but the cohanim -- "and even gave some to his companions." 27 Then he said to them, "Shabbat was made for mankind, not mankind for Shabbat; 28 So the Son of Man is Lord even of Shabbat."
I know, it is easy to read too much into a passage of scripture. But when my family needs the spiritual guidance I neglected for years, or for that matter others are in need, then I suppose I do "break Shabbat" in a strict sense. But I take refuge in the fact that Yeshua healed on Shabbat, and He taught on Shabbat and more than a few times confronted religious leaders on Shabbat. I'm not Yeshua, but I think I'm in good company here.
Mat 12:5 "Or haven't you read in the that on Shabbat the cohanim profane Shabbat and yet are blameless?"
Just my thoughts on the subject. I'm still learning, so take them as such and follow your own convictions. Comments welcome- I have a very thick hide and so don't offend easily. (Doesn't mean I don't like a "lively discussion" though.  )
Dan C
Update: I no longer will grill food on Shabbat, and since my family has come to understand how important it is to me and that I am serious about it the instances of having to help them on Shabbat have pretty much ceased. There may be things in the future which require my help, and always in emergencies. However my Shabbats have become pretty quiet now. |
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Jan 1, 2014 9:43:29 GMT -8
Shalom Dan! I find the more one steps out of their normal routine and steps into the Shabbat that Hashem made Holy we start to see a difference in our own lives and those around us. It is one of the first things Hashem created as Holy so by resting in it we are stepping into a time of Holiness that again was not created by our merit but by a loving Father who knows so much more than any of us could ever even imagine. Shabbat is something that grows as your walk grows and I see it largely as a scale of where people are with the . If one is excited for the Shabbat (My kids asked how many days to Shabbat yesterday) and their heart is to enter into that rest time with Hashem then I see their hearts are into pursuing a walk with Hashem. If they are saddened because they didn't get everything they needed to be done in time and well now the suns down and they get upset that it is Shabbat, we see many place their own priorities in place of Hashem. As followers of Adonai we should be like the children who are excited to count the days to the next Shabbat. Everyone is a different walk and has different challenges, we are all in "Egypt" "Babylon" whatever you wish to call it. So we need to be sensitive to others walks but encourage growth. Let me ask this, do you keep Shabbat the exact same way as two years ago? How about five years ago? Do you see the Sabbath changing your habits and lifestyle in some sense or the other? I know for me personally the Sabbath has grown into such a delight and such a joy that it really comes with such a blessing. The sun setting on Friday night brings in such a time of joy and fellowship that it is hard to wait for. As long as we are growing and learning the ways of Hashem the more we will surrender into His set aside Rest for Us. I pray that everyone would keep the day set aside as Holy since it was created as a Holy day for us to enter into. How special is that! Two days and we get to celebrate!  Blessings! Yedidyah |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jan 12, 2014 1:41:25 GMT -8
I find the more one steps out of their normal routine and steps into the Shabbat that Hashem made Holy we start to see a difference in our own lives and those around us. It is one of the first things Hashem created as Holy so by resting in it we are stepping into a time of Holiness that again was not created by our merit but by a loving Father who knows so much more than any of us could ever even imagine.
Obedience on the Sabbath was always the most noticeable things about Jews, as it set them apart from the real hardworking pagans out there. In the beginning people thought them lazy and foolish. Then the Jews were blessed and made prosperous because of this Sabbath rest, even in spite of it. And keeping Shabbat is the mark of being OTHER than whatever is normal at the time.
Abba having already taken the day, and made it His, it is amazing how few peoples kept a rest day on the seventh day...except perhaps Saturnists. And  to think that Christians slipped away from it because the 'Love Feast' of Communion was taken after sunset on the Calender day we call Saturday, after Shabbat services in the synagogues. All too easy for that evening service of the earliest point of the Jewish 1st day to slide to daytime of the Jewish 1st day when it became politally convenient to do so. I think though, that it will become a betraying point, and a custom of contention as it has been in the past.
Fortunately, that will mean that Yeshua is returning...imminently.
Shabbat is something that grows as your walk grows and I see it largely as a scale of where people are with the . If one is excited for the Shabbat (My kids asked how many days to Shabbat yesterday) and their heart is to enter into that rest time with Hashem then I see their hearts are into pursuing a walk with Hashem. If they are saddened because they didn't get everything they needed to be done in time and well now the suns down and they get upset that it is Shabbat, we see many place their own priorities in place of Hashem. As followers of Adonai we should be like the children who are excited to count the days to the next Shabbat. Everyone is a different walk and has different challenges, we are all in "Egypt" "Babylon" whatever you wish to call it. So we need to be sensitive to others' walks but encourage growth. Let me ask this, do you keep Shabbat the exact same way as two years ago? How about five years ago? Do you see the Sabbath changing your habits and lifestyle in some sense or the other? I know for me personally the Sabbath has grown into such a delight and such a joy that it really comes with such a blessing. The sun setting on Friday night brings in such a time of joy and fellowship that it is hard to wait for. As long as we are growing and learning the ways of Hashem the more we will surrender into His set aside Rest for Us. I pray that everyone would keep the day set aside as Holy since it was created as a Holy day for us to enter into. How special is that! Two days and we get to celebrate! Blessings! Yedidyah[/quote] I would like to be a child again, and be brought up in a Messianic household with parents who believed in Yeshua. Such an opportunity to live a life truly well, and have it more abundantly, even as Yeshua wanted for us. Your children are Blessed, even as they are a blessing to you. |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jan 12, 2014 2:28:41 GMT -8
... Keeping the Sabbath in the U.S. often requires great commitment and considerable sacrifice, but God blesses the people who do it. Agreed. Our society is based on Christian tradition of a 1st day rest; and even that is coming more and more under attack. And Christians never have (by and large) truly "rested." Being raised in that tradition it is difficult for me to rest on Shabbat.
In the beginning of the switch to actually keeping the day in separateness it was quite a struggle to get the Sabbath to last more than a few hours. Now I can manage the evening after sunset, once I realize it is dark...(no time sense coming back as yet), sleeping-in in the morning, and after checking my eMail for emergencies, not open another one until Sunday!I have to continually remind myself not to do things that are creative work, just plain work, or financial "work." I'm not as strict about it as Rabbinical Judaism. For instance, I do turn lights on and off, and will get on the computer. But I try not to do work or financial transactions.
Since I have a specific command from Abba to WRITE!!! (that was the tone in the vision) stuff for Him or about Him or concerning Him I never abstain from writing
G-dstuff on any day.
The hard part for me is keeping people from disturbing me by deciding to come work for me on Shabbat...so I turn the tables by grabbing them, making them come inside and talk G-dstuff. Since I only know Believers of one type or another, that makes it an assembly!
I will however help my family; like a few weeks ago I helped my son move. It is the only time he had to do it, and I have to believe that family is important- something I was not raised with in respect to the church. My Dad believed in God, the Southern Baptist Church, and then if you had time left over and felt like it, family. I was the same raising my kids (except mine was mostly selfish interests, not the church). I won't do that to them now. I'll also fire up the grill and have family over for burgers (and yes, I eat cheeseburgers, in case anyone is wondering- but no pork; beef franks for the kids). Family time, that sense of "community" as my wife puts it, is important to me now.
Hmmm...That was a gas barbeque, wasn't it? 
I'll also do a mitzvah if it can't wait. According to the rabbi (my rabbi?), a mitzvah is always acceptable. And I'll help with "church" ministries that I agree with (there's that "community" thing again). Am I wrong? Not committed enough? I do ask this often, but never when I reflect on it do I feel convicted otherwise.
Also, even abiding Messianic Believers are not supposed to be fussing over where the line is drawn, and if you drew it in the correct place!I know, it is easy to read too much into a passage of scripture. But when my family needs the spiritual guidance I neglected for years, or for that matter others are in need, then I suppose I do "break Shabbat" in a strict sense. But I take refuge in the fact that Yeshua healed on Shabbat, and He taught on Shabbat and more than a few times confronted religious leaders on Shabbat. I'm not Yeshua, but I think I'm in good company here.
Yeshua is always good company. The point is whether you are breaking a law defiantly or rebelliously, as opposed to not knowing how to do something, or not needing to do something, or not do it, as the case may be. You must remember that was giving to reveal the inability of man to keep it, and man's need for Abba's gift of Grace in Yeshua, and the giving of the Ruach haKodesh.
I do not wish to make light of the commandments, but I value Grace first, and obedience second, because I cannot do or be perfect in obedience.
I feel blessed now that I know I don't have to be perfect...Yeshua was perfect in my place, took my burden of sin, and bore my curse for me. And yours!
Just my thoughts on the subject. I'm still learning, so take them as such and follow your own convictions. Comments welcome- I have a very thick hide and so don't offend easily. (Doesn't mean I don't like a "lively discussion" though. ) Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Jan 12, 2014 8:51:24 GMT -8
Abba having already taken the day, and made it His, it is amazing how few peoples kept a rest day on the seventh day...except perhaps Saturnists. And to think that Christians slipped away from it because the 'Love Feast' of Communion was taken after sunset on the Calender day we call Saturday, after Shabbat services in the synagogues. All too easy for that evening service of the earliest point of the Jewish 1st day to slide to daytime of the Jewish 1st day when it became politally convenient to do so. I think though, that it will become a betraying point, and a custom of contention as it has been in the past. Fortunately, that will mean that Yeshua is returning...imminently. It is interesting how so many Christians find a minority verse in scripture to build an entire doctrine on. Let's look at the verse in Acts. Acts 20:7
7 On Motza’ei-Shabbat, when we were gathered to break bread, Sha’ul addressed them. Since he was going to leave the next day, he kept talking until midnight. So we see it was the evening after the Shabbat was ending. A tradition that has been alive throughout all Jewish litrature for thousands of years is Havdalah, to separate the Shabbat from the rest of the week. Motz'ei Shabbat(literally, the going out of the Sabbath) in Judaism refers to the time in the evening immediately following Shabbat. This is a common practice and something that get's perverted for the Sunday Sabbath ideologies. I am going to include the KJV just for kicks since it is what most will use to make their point. Acts 20:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.Anyone who knows history knows the Hebrew days have always started from night fall to night fall. So many try to place their westernized mindsets onto scripture as if it has to match the Roman type thinking the church has adapted to for far to long. This happens to leave a giant wall from biblical understanding. We have the disciples keeping Shabbat over 85 times in Acts alone yet the common practice among many Christians is Sunday based on one verse. So say they are right and the disciples got together on the First day, it does not mean it was the Sabbath, there is no mention of it being a Shabbat. So we have one against an eighty five percent majority. When in real life does such a small percentage actually win? Never! I call it minority verse syndrome  where one must build doctrine based on One Verse in the Bible and draw a bulls eye around it and call it biblical. I would like to be a child again, and be brought up in a Messianic household with parents who believed in Yeshua. Such an opportunity to live a life truly well, and have it more abundantly, even as Yeshua wanted for us. Your children are Blessed, even as they are a blessing to you. I am really blessed by having the joy of being able to watch as my children get so excited to start Shabbat. It really is a great blessing, thanks. Bless and Keep, Yedidyah |
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 12, 2014 10:20:13 GMT -8
... I value Grace first, and obedience second, because I cannot do or be perfect in obedience. I value obedience, then rest in His grace when I fail to be perfect. Dan C |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jan 14, 2014 4:19:50 GMT -8
Abba having already taken the day, and made it His, it is amazing how few peoples kept a rest day on the seventh day...except perhaps Saturnists. And to think that Christians slipped away from it because the 'Love Feast' of Communion was taken after sunset on the Calender day we call Saturday, after Shabbat services in the synagogues. All too easy for that evening service of the earliest point of the Jewish 1st day to slide to daytime of the Jewish 1st day when it became politically convenient to do so. I think though, that it will become a betraying point, and a custom of contention as it has been in the past. Fortunately, that will mean that Yeshua is returning...imminently. It is interesting how so many Christians find a minority verse in scripture to build an entire doctrine on. Let's look at the verse in Acts. Acts 20:7
7 On Motza’ei-Shabbat, when we were gathered to break bread, Sha’ul addressed them. Since he was going to leave the next day, he kept talking until midnight. So we see it was the evening after the Shabbat was ending. A tradition that has been alive throughout all Jewish litrature for thousands of years is Havdalah, to separate the Shabbat from the rest of the week. Motz'ei Shabbat(literally, the going out of the Sabbath) in Judaism refers to the time in the evening immediately following Shabbat. This is a common practice and something that get's perverted for the Sunday Sabbath ideologies. I am going to include the KJV just for kicks since it is what most will use to make their point. Acts 20:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight.Anyone who knows history knows the Hebrew days have always started from night fall to night fall. So many try to place their westernized mindsets onto scripture as if it has to match the Roman type thinking the church has adapted to for far to long. This happens to leave a giant wall from biblical understanding. We have the disciples keeping Shabbat over 85 times in Acts alone yet the common practice among many Christians is Sunday based on one verse. So say they are right and the disciples got together on the First day, it does not mean it was the Sabbath, there is no mention of it being a Shabbat. So we have one against an eighty five percent majority. When in real life does such a small percentage actually win? Never! I call it minority verse syndrome where one must build doctrine based on One Verse in the Bible and draw a bulls eye around it and call it biblical. |
|
|
|
Post by Yedidyah on Jan 14, 2014 9:11:35 GMT -8
Oddly, I think the Catholic Church moved the day when they were trying to make Yeshua's death match the calender of AD 33. This misdated Yeshua's birth year, and which crammed Yeshua's death onto a Friday, and had Him rising on a Sunday Morning...as if that gave Him 3 days in the grave! Shalom! What is interesting about that whenever I have asked your basic question, 'How does that equal three days' I am quickly given the answer. I am usually told that I would have to be Jewish to understand how the Hebrews calculated time and how they did not go by the Roman Calendar so under the Western mindset it sounds confusing but to anyone Jewish they would know right away why it says what it does. I am not kidding, I get this all the time. When I tell them I am Jewish and follow the Jewish calender and know how time is calculated the subject quickly changes or you never get a response after that. It's not that people want to search out truth when everything is much more comfortable where they are but how does one really stand for something with an answer that is based on lies. Wouldn't that be a cause for concern? I just don't understand how so many can claim to have everything figured out but when it goes up against the scripture it is easy to point out where man has taken liberties that should have never been. It is but look around at how many churches have 'Sunday Worship' on the front of their churches. 'Easter Worship' and so on. I pray eyes will see that in the most literal meaning of their titles we see the true roots of such practice. Blessings! Yedidyah |
|
|
|
Post by Questor on Jan 15, 2014 0:52:35 GMT -8
Oddly, I think the Catholic Church moved the day when they were trying to make Yeshua's death match the calender of AD 33. This misdated Yeshua's birth year, and which crammed Yeshua's death onto a Friday, and had Him rising on a Sunday Morning...as if that gave Him 3 days in the grave! Shalom! What is interesting about that whenever I have asked your basic question, 'How does that equal three days' I am quickly given the answer. I am usually told that I would have to be Jewish to understand how the Hebrews calculated time and how they did not go by the Roman Calendar so under the Western mindset it sounds confusing but to anyone Jewish they would know right away why it says what it does. I am not kidding, I get this all the time. When I tell them I am Jewish and follow the Jewish calender and know how time is calculated the subject quickly changes or you never get a response after that. It's not that people want to search out truth when everything is much more comfortable where they are but how does one really stand for something with an answer that is based on lies. Wouldn't that be a cause for concern? I just don't understand how so many can claim to have everything figured out but when it goes up against the scripture it is easy to point out where man has taken liberties that should have never been. It is but look around at how many churches have 'Sunday Worship' on the front of their churches. 'Easter Worship' and so on. I pray eyes will see that in the most literal meaning of their titles we see the true roots of such practice. Blessings! Yedidyah
Christians depend on their mistaken idea of Grace.
All those who trust in Yeshua do so for salvation on the basis of what He did at the Stake. All of our obedience cannot get us saved, because no one can keep the law perfect, without ever sinning.
Unfortunately, Many Christians are so ill taught that they do not understand that our relationship with Yeshua is not just based on His taking our curse as our Goel, but on loving Him. And love requires that you do what the Beloved wants to the utmost of your ability. YHVH wants our love and trust, but He also wants our obedience.Luke 11:27-28 (CJB)
27 As Yeshua was saying these things, a woman in the crowd raised her voice to call out, “How blessed is the mother that gave birth to you and nursed you from her breast!”
28 But he said, “Far more blessed are those who hear the word of God and obey it!”
John 8:51-55 (CJB)
51 Yes, indeed! I tell you that whoever obeys my teaching will never see death.”
52 The Judeans said to him, “Now we know for sure that you have a demon! Avraham died, and so did the prophets; yet you say, ‘Whoever obeys my teaching will never taste death.’
53 Avraham avinu died; you aren’t greater than he, are you? And the prophets also died. Who do you think you are?”
54 Yeshua answered, “If I praise myself, my praise counts for nothing. The One who is praising me is my Father, the very one about whom you keep saying, ‘He is our God.’
55 Now you have not known him, but I do know him; indeed, if I were to say that I don’t know him, I would be a liar like you! But I do know him, and I obey his word.
Yeshua loved the Father, and obeyed Him. We love G-d as YHVH, Yeshua or Ruach haKodesh. It would seem logical to obey G-d as a means of showing our love, but there are only a sprinking of Christians in each Church that go so far as to think things through to this.
Christians also are taught to obey Yeshua, and by that they think that He meant only His words in the Sermon on the Mount, or as shown in the parables, or as exampled by Sh'aul, which do indeed tell us what to concentrate on to practice cleaning the inside of the cup that we are, and not merely try to be pure on the outside.
In an odd way, I think some Jews are equally afraid of what that might mean for them, to not merely do all that they are taught from birth to do, as both culture and religion, but to try to be as pure inside as were are to be outside...which none of us can do. It must be accomplished in us by the Ruach haKodesh!
What say you?
|
|
|
|
Post by alon on Jan 15, 2014 3:55:58 GMT -8
Christians depend on their mistaken idea of Grace. The truth will make you free (John 8:32), and oddly enough even Americans fear freedom! Especially religious freedom, because with freedom come responsibility. But, if "we got grace!" then we're "good to go!" An odd concept that the thing that sets you free would turn responsibility on its head ... Dan C |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2014 10:55:16 GMT -8
I think that the majority of North Americans desire freedom, however they do not want to fight for it. We talk, yet do not do. And yes, responsibility goes along with it. No one wants to step up to the plate.
|
|
- there are 70 faces to 
) 
to think that Christians slipped away from it because the 'Love Feast' of Communion was taken after sunset on the Calender day we call Saturday, after Shabbat services in the synagogues. All too easy for that evening service of the earliest point of the Jewish 1st day to slide to daytime of the Jewish 1st day when it became politally convenient to do so. I think though, that it will become a betraying point, and a custom of contention as it has been in the past. 
