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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 12:46:48 GMT -8
Titus 1:5 This is why I left you in Crete, so that you might put what remained into order, and appoint elders in every town as I directed you-- 6 if anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife, and his children are believers and not open to the charge of debauchery or insubordination. 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it.
10 For there are many who are insubordinate, empty talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision party. 11 They must be silenced, since they are upsetting whole families by teaching for shameful gain what they ought not to teach.
12 One of the Cretans, a prophet of their own, said, "Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons." 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not devoting themselves to Jewish myths and the commands of people who turn away from the truth.
15 To the pure, all things are pure, but to the defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure; but both their minds and their consciences are defiled. 16 They profess to know God, but they deny him by their works. They are detestable, disobedient, unfit for any good work.
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 12:53:36 GMT -8
On the surface, even in the CJB, this can and is used as an indictment against Messianism and a command to silence us. So I thought maybe we should all tear into this passage and see if it is so. ... 7 For an overseer, as God's steward, must be above reproach. He must not be arrogant or quick-tempered or a drunkard or violent or greedy for gain, 8 but hospitable, a lover of good, self-controlled, upright, holy, and disciplined. 9 He must hold firm to the trustworthy word as taught, so that he may be able to give instruction in sound doctrine and also to rebuke those who contradict it. So here is the standard. Can we as Messianic believers prove to meet this as well (or at the risk of being called "arrogant" better than) our mainstream counterparts? Can we defend ourselves against the "charges" that follow in this text? Dan |
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 13:24:01 GMT -8
The "circumcision party" ... ouch ...
Who were the "circumcision party" of the 1st century?
Read in context, this is neither Jewish believers nor traditional Judaism, but a faction unto itself which believed in circumcision of gentiles as per the Jewish faith. Read on in vs. 12 and we see Paul talk not of Jews but of Cretans, who were decidedly gentiles.
And what about the term "gluttens"? This is important because it is used to imply Paul is speaking against those who keep kashruth. Even if we take it Paul was speaking about food, the context is still referring to gentiles, and specifically Cretans. So he cannot be talking about kosher vs. unclean animals, or eating those beasties in particular.
In the KJV, the term is translated "slow bellies." According to my Strongs, the term "bellies" could refer to the stomach. It could also refer to the womb. Now, to me a "slow belly" would NOT indicate food in the context of gluttony, since gluttonous eaters stereotypically eat much and very fast. So let's go with the idea of the womb.
A "slow belly" as pregnancy could mean patience. Plant the seed, or idea, and wait for it to grow. Plant many seeds of evil and wait for the evil harvest. Sew dissention and false doctrine and wait for the church to tear itself apart internally, bearing external fruit in time.
Dan
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 13:42:38 GMT -8
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Checkmate! ... Really?
Well, this one does actually hit close to home, although most of those who accuse us would have no idea how. To them, this is an indictment of anything Jewish. Odd coming from a man who up until his death declared himself to be not only a Jew, but a Pharisee and one who had never done anything to be blamed for by his people.
I see this as rather a proscription against those taking the outward form of Judaism, the trappings of the religion, but who are inwardly not true believers. This is borne out by reading the entire letter.
It could also be an indictment of gentiles who take on the trappings of Judaism. This could be a problem. Messianics do many things which were not done in the 1st century or before by Jews or believers in Yeshua. (ex: wearing the kippah, practicing one of the later seders. Or the question(s) of how we wear our tzitzyot.) I don't want to get bogged down in arguments about these examples, but rather let's focus on the possibility that this could speak to us as gentiles. Where should we draw the line- only 1st cen practices? Some later practices? Anything from any time? This is one I struggle with quite a bit, so not condemning but searching.
Dan
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 14:01:24 GMT -8
And finally: ooh, back to the food thing ... except that I think I already debunked the notion Paul is talking about food. But be prepared, as this notion will die hard in the minds of those deceived. Personally, I'd go with the idea it speaks to taharoth, or ritual purity as it applies to the minds of believers. Whatever we take in, or what teaching we sit under, is as pure or defiling as anything we can eat- probably moreso! Matthew 23:23 "Woe to you hypocritical  -teachers and P'rushim! You pay your tithes of mint, dill and cumin; but you have neglected the weightier matters of the -- justice, mercy, trust. These are the things you should have attended to -- without neglecting the others! Would you want to sit under the teaching of these people? Galatians 2:11 Furthermore, when Kefa came to Antioch, I opposed him publicly, because he was clearly in the wrong. 12 For prior to the arrival of certain people from [the community headed by] Ya'akov, he had been eating with the Gentile believers; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, because he was afraid of the faction who favored circumcising Gentile believers. 13 And the other Jewish believers became hypocrites along with him, so that even Bar-Nabba was led astray by their hypocrisy. 14 But when I saw that they were not walking a straight path, keeping in line with the truth of the Good News, I said to Kefa, right in front of everyone, "If you, who are a Jew, live like a Goy and not like a Jew, why are you forcing the Goyim to live like Jews? Again, I have to ask myself how far I will go in emulating Jewish customs. I did not say commandments, because the things commanded are for us all. But customs attached to those commandments are a question I haven't resolved yet in my own mind. Dan |
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Post by alon on Jun 2, 2013 14:09:04 GMT -8
I think I can answer the detractors of Messianic beliefs. Feel free to add to or even contradict me in my reasoning and understanding. However, if I am honest and look at the hard questions, I am not yet settled in my own mind with some things.
What do you think about any of this? Do we sometimes go too far in trying to restructure how we worship or express who we are?
Is Paul speaking against gentiles being too Jewish? If so, do we sometimes get too zealous in expressing ourselves or restructuring how we worship?
Dan C
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Post by smashingjerry on Jun 3, 2013 9:18:05 GMT -8
12 One of them, a prophet of their own, said, “Cretans are always liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.” 13 This testimony is true. Therefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith, 14 not giving heed to Jewish fables and commandments of men who turn from the truth. (NKJV)
What I think you may have missed ( you at least didn't mention it), is Saul is here quoting someone else; "One of them, a prophet of their own, said", although Saul seems to agree with the statement. Put in the context of verse 11, I think that it is at least possible that glutton here means; a person devoted to eating and drinking to excess; greedy person.
Verse 14 puts the entire passage into perspective.
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Post by alon on Jun 3, 2013 16:04:14 GMT -8
What I think you may have missed ( you at least didn't mention it), is Saul is here quoting someone else; "One of them, a prophet of their own, said", although Saul seems to agree with the statement. True, I didn't mention it because Sha'ul didn't name him but did agree, so I didn't think it was important to name the source- which brings up the second problem: I don't know who the source is.  You wouldn't happen to know, by any chance? Who knows, it might be instructional. Sure, it could and perhaps does refer to only food. However it is just as or, my opinion more likely that it refers to things other than food as well. Many greedy persons are gluttons for food. But both gluttony and greed can encompass many things. The main point here is regardless, when we look at the context and who it is being addressed even if it is just food, Sha'ul is NOT talking about Jews, whether believers or otherwise. He is NOT talking about feeding our obsession with eating pork. In fact, if food IS the issue, I'd say it is the gentiles and those Jews not eating kasruth who would be the gluttons; feeding themselves with all manner of unclean foods. I'm also of the opinion that it can mean more than one thing. It can refer to people eating unclean things, and at the same time refer to impregnating the body of believers with unclean ideas. Hmmmmm, there are several ways to look at any passage, I suppose. I broke it up as I did because Sha'ul seems to change his focus in each. - vs. 5-9 are the standard.
- vs. 10 & 11 are the condemnation and the command to deal with the problem.
- vs. 12-14 identify this as both a gentile AND a Jewish problem, not just the Jewish converts.
- vs. 15 & 16 say this is primarily a problem of the mind and heart. The filters we use to sort what we take in from the world around us and what we say to those we come in contact with are as important to our spiritual health as what we eat is to our physical health. Who we listen to, and allow to speak and teach in our congregations is more important than what is allowed at the potluck after.
Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
