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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2013 5:01:08 GMT -8
Sometimes I feel like I am suspended between two worlds- mainstream Christianity and Messianism. It can be frustrating at times, trying to sort through all the crap that's out there in BOTH systems of "religion." Those of you who've had to rely on the internet as your primary source of information on the Messianic beliefs which combat the obvious false doctrines in Christianity as we know it know what I am saying. But at times there are those moments of clarity that make it all worthwhile- for example finding out why Paul wrote such convoluted arguments about "the law." He was arguing against "legalism," but there was no word for that in the Hebrew language at the time so he tried to convey his meaning using the closest term he had, which was "the law," while not invalidating the law along with the legalistic practices that were violating the "early church" (another misnomer). I had such an experience on the mainstream side of my house this last week. I went to a seminar/retreat based on the ministry of John Eldredge and met a God I never heard preached or witnessed to anywhere else outside the Bible (certainly not in my extensive "church" experience, or my admittedly limited exposure to teaching in synagogue). In fact, about the only place you ever hear of this God is when the secular world throws Him in your face as an example of how "evil" the God of the Bible is. He is a God of righteous violence; a warrior who fights for His own. Not the abstract God spoken of on every message board on the net who will mysteriously somehow uphold Israel and destroy her enemies (like they actually believe what they are saying about Him). I'm talking about the God who told Israel to posses the land and slaughter everyone who lives there, because if any remained they would (and did) eventually harm His family. A God men can respect, because we are made in His image for the purpose of protecting our families and protecting our faith. Men can't respect a picture of a sedated, perfectly coifed Jesus, softly backlit and staring vacantly at (presumably) your wife (notice the eyes never "blaze" directly at you?). Quite frankly, I think I could kick His butt. Now tell me, how am I supposed to worship a God like that? However, that is not the God who "cleansed" HIS Temple. It is not the Man who challenged the religious leaders time and again, knowing it would lead to His incarceration, humiliation and death, yet standing firm IN and FOR His faith! And it is not the Jesus who will one day return, His robes dripping in the blood of those who would destroy His own! And every man can both understand and respect that God. Only the foolish challenge Him. Even the gentle ministry of healing is an act of violence. The wounds which scarred our lives, while sometimes but obviously not always subtle, are only healed in the pain of facing them again. They were in reality done by violent, malevolent spirits (Eph 6:12), and only in the often agonizing pain of reliving them are we healed. It is only in the light of this strength that His tenderness and mercy towards us is truly revealed. It is only in our willingness as men created in His image that we can tenderly, and violently if necessary protect our families both physically and spiritually. This does not invalidate the strengths of women, nor the fact that they too are created in "His" image. But it is a fact that we had better get ahold of, because we live in evil and therefore violent times. Men were created with a violent nature for a reason, and that the world has perverted that nature is reason enough for us to connect to that part of our nature. I expect to take a lot of flak for this. I'll try not to react too violently though.  Dan C |
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Post by Micha'el on Apr 22, 2013 11:24:09 GMT -8
Shalom Dan, Nothing wrong with going to motivating seminars or reading books from various authors out there who are sharing experiences that motivated them. Is this a quote from one of Johns' books? I read some of J.E.'s books when they first came out. I was thirsting for dynamic living. I also read books by Tommy Tenney, (God Chasers) Each book captivated me for a short period of time. One thing I have learned from "experiences" is that they don't last. Just consider the Israelites as they saw all of His miracles only to forget them and follow after what their heart desired. His Word will endure forever and His Word can energize our lives every day when we read from the pages. When someone stirs you up to draw closer to G_d, that's ideal. Read HIM.   Micha'el |
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Post by Frank T. Clark on Apr 22, 2013 13:27:11 GMT -8
I have also struggled mightily for the last ten years trying to learn what the complacent denominations did not teach me. I primarily study His Word but I have studied what is on the Internet and in books. I have found a lot of error and nonsense but a little bit of truth. I have lately found that I need to turn my back on some sources because they speak smooth things and do not have light.
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2013 13:27:30 GMT -8
Actually it wasn't a typical motivational seminar where they amp you up and maybe spike the coffee just in case you need help. The whole event was meant to motivate you to action, but they stressed quiet time alone with God. The sessions were typically split between speaking and then us finding a quiet spot alone and praying, asking God for direction. And these weren't professional speakers. They were blue collar working volunteers that do this once a year, and most of them do an advanced seminar as well. They live all over the Pac NW. As far as not lasting, It already has in a way. 5 of us went out of a group of 9 men from 3 different churches who are going through a 9 month course by Ed Cole. We are almost done with the course, and have all committed to teaching it to others. 2 of the men had been to this seminar before, and thought it would be good to offer something similar along with the Cole course. I'm betting it'll be done. Interesting sidelight: Rabbi Stanley warned me there was quite a bit of anti-Messianic sentiment in the area they held the seminar. I "flew my colors" anyhow, and almost everyone I talked to was interested in my viewpoint. Only one person got a little surly, but it was all attitude; he didn't say anything. A few even came to me and asked about my take, and they asked some insightful questions. Last point: my enthusiasm comes from the fact that they touched on many of the reasons I left the church with a vengeance before I even left home. They actually stressed quiet time getting to know God. It's just my naturally exuberant personality coming expressing itself in ways only my Jack Russell would understand. Dan  C |
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Post by alon on Apr 22, 2013 13:36:56 GMT -8
I have also struggled mightily for the last ten years trying to learn what the complacent denominations did not teach me. I primarily study His Word but I have studied what is on the Internet and in books. I have found a lot of error and nonsense but a little bit of truth. I have lately found that I need to turn my back on some sources because they speak smooth things and do not have light. Understand. I wish I had back all the money I've thrown away on books that turned out to be filler for my garbage can; or all the time I've spent trying to sort through the absolute manure on the net, trying to find the nuggets of truth worth cleaning off keeping. My wife is predictably a bit shaken over this, my latest "little mishigas." When I told her men couldn't and wouldn't immulate a weakened God, or a theology that tells us to "be nice, sit still, pay tithes, paint the church so it looks good for the ladies and above all try not to break anything." She asked (incredulously), "Well what are you supposed to do then?" I replied "Stand between the world and our families; monitor what the school is teaching our kids, and intervene when necessary; pull a wolf in sheep's clothing out of the pulpit and show him the door, while supporting the man who preaches the word; if some fool comes in with a gun, he should be taken out before he can draw a bead on anyone, much less empty the gun into the congregation; enforce order in our neighborhoods, with or without the police as necessary; and yes, pay tithes and paint the church as required and when it needs it." I further made the point that the tenderness shown by Yeshua towards the needy and the lost or by God as He fought for His children are mirrored in earthly fathers as well. But without that strength to measure it by there is no tenderness. Just like without the law there is no sin. A male that has bought into the modern view of the bumbling playboy with no guts to stand up for his own is not tender, he's just whimpy, and he'll run as soon as it gets too hard to stay. Dan C |
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Post by alon on Oct 13, 2013 22:06:40 GMT -8
Just an update (if anyone is interested [img src=" ![]() img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/peek-a-boo/anyone.gif"][/img] ): Myself and six other men did complete the Ed Cole course. I'm now the assistant facilitator of a new class. We are just starting the second book next week.I'll have to be on my toes for this one though, as one "student" is a Nazarine pastor who just completed his Masters Degree. Another trained for the ministry, but just when he was about to enter the pulpit his wife left him, and you can't be an AoG minister if you are divorced. I just returned from the advanced seminar for the John Eldredge course, and have been tapped to help with a similar course this January. The things addressed in both courses are in large part the reasons I left mainstream Christianity. While still MainC, and so rife with doctrinal errors, these kinds of things represent a sincere effort on the part of MainC to start making necessary corrections. And yes, they represent an opportunity for the odd Messianic to interject more clarity into the mix. I'm convinced that, besides the fact God is calling His people to a greater degree of holiness, the Messianic movement is itself largely responsible for MainC tackling these weightier issues. I still would rather be putting my efforts into some kind of Messianic outreach. But this is where God has put me, so here is where I work. I've been told I should quit these ministries and leave mainstream Christianity altogether, but this is impractical for many reasons. Not one to sit on my hands ... So here I am, still suspended between two worlds. But I still keep praying; and working. And if the attacks of the enemy are any indication, I must be doing something right. Dan C |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 14, 2013 1:05:36 GMT -8
[/img][/img][/img] ): Myself and six other men did complete the Ed Cole course. I'm now the assistant facilitator of a new class. We are just starting the second book next week.I'll have to be on my toes for this one though, as one "student" is a Nazarine pastor who just completed his Masters Degree. Another trained for the ministry, but just when he was about to enter the pulpit his wife left him, and you can't be an AoG minister if you are divorced. I just returned from the advanced seminar for the John Eldredge course, and have been tapped to help with a similar course this January. The things addressed in both courses are in large part the reasons I left mainstream Christianity. While still MainC, and so rife with doctrinal errors, these kinds of things represent a sincere effort on the part of MainC to start making necessary corrections. And yes, they represent an opportunity for the odd Messianic to interject more clarity into the mix. I'm convinced that, besides the fact God is calling His people to a greater degree of holiness, the Messianic movement is itself largely responsible for MainC tackling these weightier issues. I still would rather be putting my efforts into some kind of Messianic outreach. But this is where God has put me, so here is where I work. I've been told I should quit these ministries and leave mainstream Christianity altogether, but this is impractical for many reasons. Not one to sit on my hands ... So here I am, still suspended between two worlds. But I still keep praying; and working. And if the attacks of the enemy are any indication, I must be doing something right. Dan C[/quote] I understand where you are at. When I was an Academic Tutor (Theology) I had some guys on my course who had Doctorates (I have a Masters and am an ordained minister) but most of the others were at BA level, or lower, but I marked them all in just the same way - if a Dr got something wrong I marked it as wrong on his/her paper. To a large extent it depends on the subject matter studied for their Doctorate, or other degree; non-Theology degree holders can't be expected to be experts in Theology. Strangely, the only ones who never complained about being picked up on matters were those who had a higher degree. Those lower down the degree hierarchy usually complained the most, often because they didn't like to be corrected in either their theology or their ability to write essays. As for where you are - that is determined by the Lord. I know I am called to work in the Church and to spread the Messianic message that way and I have often said to Messianics that they need to work in Churches, but to teach by evolution and not revolution, as many seem to want to do, which only makes our message a stumbling block to others Blessings to you in your leadership. |
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Post by alon on Oct 14, 2013 8:58:47 GMT -8
I understand where you are at. ... As for where you are - that is determined by the Lord. I know I am called to work in the Church and to spread the Messianic message that way and I have often said to Messianics that they need to work in Churches, Yes, sometimes God doesn't so much 'call' us to the mission field; He just puts us there and says "Now, you've no choice- lean on Me!" Yeah, that'd be me. But that's excellent advice, right there! True, which makes it a difficult, and often painful lesson to learn. Thanks! 'Always use a blessing and, if anyone is so inclined a prayer now and again couldn't hurt. Dan C |
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- there are 70 faces to 
